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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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 Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2004 7:29 pm Post subject: Torture - A Manfactured Scandal |
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June 25, 2004, 8:56 a.m.
A Manufactured Scandal
The Times and memos.
The coverage of the internal government memoranda regarding interrogation tactics and the legal parameters of torture continues to provide stark indications of both what is wrong with policymaking in our 24-hour media age and what becomes of the legal profession in an era when facts take a backseat to feelings.
Stretching for Scandal
Predictably, the New York Times, straight from its anti-Iraq War Room, supplied the latest dose of juvenilia, targeted at a Justice Department memo written in August 2002 by Jay S. Bybee, then an assistant attorney general and now a judge on the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. At the time the memo was drafted, Bybee was the head of DOJ's Office of Legal Counsel, the brainy legal beagle unit that serves as "lawyers for the lawyers" on knotty issues that affect not only DOJ but the wide array of executive-department agencies. According to the Times, Bybee's memo was addressed to chief White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales, and it provided an expansive assessment of the president's capacity to allow physically aggressive interrogation techniques by so narrowly crimping the concept of "torture" as nearly to define it out of existence. Thus, the Times reports: The memorandum, dated Aug. 1, 2002, defined torture narrowly under a federal law that prohibits it. Only pain like that accompanying "death, organ failure or the permanent impairment of a significant body function" qualifies, Mr. Bybee wrote. It went on to say torture is unlawful only if the infliction of pain is the offender's specific objective. "Even if the defendant knows that severe pain will result from his actions, if causing such harm is not his objective, he lacks the requisite specific intent," he wrote.
Balance of the Article: http://www.nationalreview.com/mccarthy/mccarthy200406250856.asp
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 On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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ROTC DAD
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Edited by Moderator - No Proof provided, - No Post! |
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fortdixlover
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 1476
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| Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| ROTC DAD wrote: | Which is a crock. This is the same defense used by Nazi scientists to explain their experiments on people. "We were doing it for science; we weren't trying to torture anybody." It didn't wash then; it doesn't wash now.
As for it being some kind of intellectual exercise; then why did Bush have to sign off on it?
The Justice Department of the US decided it could justify breaking the law. It's pretty cut and dry really. |
ROTC Dad, I fail to understand your complaint.
By the tenets of leftist moral relativism, one man's beheading is just another man's religious exercise. Don't you agree? Don't you think the terrorists should be able to play a new sport called "infidel blood squirt"? The terrorist who cuts the head off an infidel and gets the blood to squirt from the carotid arteries the furthest wins? Don't you think American women should be able to play "panties on the heads of Iraqis as an exercise of the "alternative" culture often on display at gay pride marches in NYC and San Francisco? If not, why not?
If you disagree with this new sport, why? Isn't terrorist culture as valid as our own? How does what the terrorists do differ from, say, Che Guevara's reign of terror?
And by the Left's perverted logic, the U.S. should surrender to the terrorists for its sins, and maybe drop an atom bomb ourselves on NYC as penance for America's sins.
After all, what's a few more million bone-crushing deaths to moral-relativist leftists who have sent millions of Russians, Jews, Cubans, Chinese, and many others to their graves?
.....
For those leftists who will get even more hysterical at my post above, I wish to point out it's a post of sarcasm directed at their hypocrisy. On a non-sarcastic note, I was aghast at an AOL poll yesterday (Iraq Freedom Day, and the day the London Financial Times revealed that Saddam was trying to obtain weapons-capable uranium from Niger, http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=5524644 ) asking if liberating 25,000,000 Iraqis from the boot of Saddam's brutal dictatorship was "worth it." 65% of the respondents said "no."
Of course, that's about the % of AOL users who are left-leaning. There's truth to the statement that the left is ungenerous, uncivil and instinctively vicious. To which I add, stupid and unAmerican.
FDL
Last edited by fortdixlover on Tue Jun 29, 2004 1:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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War Dog
Captain
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 517
Location: Below Birmingham Alabama
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| Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | As for it being some kind of intellectual exercise; then why did Bush have to sign off on it?
The Justice Department of the US decided it could justify breaking the law. It's pretty cut and dry really. |
If you do not have proof of President Bush signing off on this, and about the Justice Department did, then it's just your opinion, and to be considered just more lies, and false accusations without proof.
It's Way Past Time For The Gloves To Be Taken Off!
FRIGGIN WAR WOOF!
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When cops need help, they call the K-9 unit." |
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Marine4life
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 591
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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The only cut and dry thing I see is that ROTC is in left field by the fence, and doesn't have a clue. I just love the "we all know the truth" stuff that spews from their mouth. If you know the truth and its so cut and dry then where is it for us to read. I want to see Bush's signature on the order. Anything less than that is trolling and inuendo throwing. So come on where is that signature at? The difference is the left has nothing on Bush, just firing blanks hoping that someone will believe their lies. We have hard evidence on Kerry, we are not inuendoing or lying about his traitor actions or his treason. WE HAVE HIS OWN TESTIMONY. So yes this outragious lie that our entire administration is involved in torture, and all of our military are scumballs is so disgusting that it makes me want to puke. In my opinion the left will sell their own mother to regain power. So excuse me if I show no respect or mercy, you do not deserve it. Semper Fi.
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Helicopter Marine Attack Squadron 169 which is now HMLA-169. They added Huey's to compliment the Cobra effectiveness. When I served we just had Snakes. |
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ROTC DAD
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Edited by Moderator - No Proof provided, - No Post! |
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War Dog
Captain
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 517
Location: Below Birmingham Alabama
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| Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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I'm sorry, but until you show us definite proof such as a link to this report, it's still just your opinion, and lies if you can't prove it. I'm not going to go hunting for it, and I ain't going to take your word for it!
It's Way Past Time For The Gloves To Come Off!
FRIGGIN WAR WOOF!
_________________
"When people are in trouble, they call the cops.
When cops need help, they call the K-9 unit." |
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Marine4life
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 591
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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Post the order to torture with Bush's signature on it or be gone. More inuendo after inuendo. Your theory just doesn't fly. I have seen the memo that you are talking about and it does not say what you profess. If it did it would be all over the front page so quit lying and show your facts. Lying to undermine the President and our Military in a time of war also amounts to treason in my opinion. The Washington Post ya right, now that's a trustworthy news source. They would already have impeachment proceedings started. Give me a break!! You are not preaching to the DNC choir here, we think for ourselves and base that thought on fact not agenda. Glad I bought a new can of troll spray.
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Helicopter Marine Attack Squadron 169 which is now HMLA-169. They added Huey's to compliment the Cobra effectiveness. When I served we just had Snakes. |
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Marine4life
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 591
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="ROTC DAD"] This is the same defense used by Nazi scientists to explain their experiments on people. "We were doing it for science; we weren't trying to torture anybody." It didn't wash then; it doesn't wash now.
ROTC I really don't have a problem with you debating if that is what you intend to do. But the new democratic attack machine is now comparing Bush to Hitler and Nazi's. And that is the attack that you have posted here, clear DNC propaganda. You are following their line to a tee. Now that should explain my animosity towards your posts! This dribble comes directly from moveon.org which the Kerry people have embraced and I won't stand for it. You will not be allowed to make these statements without being checked. Refering to our CIC as Hitler or a Nazi is absolutely uncalled for and discredits anything else that you have to say. Semper Fi
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Helicopter Marine Attack Squadron 169 which is now HMLA-169. They added Huey's to compliment the Cobra effectiveness. When I served we just had Snakes. |
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publius
Ensign
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
Posts: 69
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| Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| FDL wrote: | By the tenets of leftist moral relativism, one man's beheading is just another man's religious exercise. Don't you agree?
...
For those leftists who will get even more hysterical at my post above, I wish to point out it's a post of sarcasm directed at their hypocrisy. |
Well, as a member of the evil and incessantly reviled, in this forum, leftist liberal political philosophy let us check the moral relativism bona fides of God's chosen few intelligent and politically correct representatives here on earth, the conservative Kerry haters.
Here is a little quote from the NYT article:
| Quote: | | The memorandum, dated Aug. 1, 2002, defined torture narrowly under a federal law that prohibits it. Only pain like that accompanying "death, organ failure or the permanent impairment of a significant body function" qualifies, Mr. Bybee wrote. It went on to say torture is unlawful only if the infliction of pain is the offender's specific objective. "Even if the defendant knows that severe pain will result from his actions, if causing such harm is not his objective, he lacks the requisite specific intent," he wrote. |
So tell us, FDL, and whoever, is Mr. Bybee right morally and on the law? Please amplify your answer enough so that even a foolish, uneducated and morally benighted liberal like myself can grasp it. I'll give you the liberal take: He is wrong, wrong, wrong, morally and on the law. Worse, he is un-American.
Your turn.
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Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war than we know about peace, more about killing than we know about living. -Gen Omar N. Bradley |
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waltjones
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 392
Location: 'bout 40 miles north of Seattle
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| Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 5:29 pm Post subject: Honest? |
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War Dog said:
I'm not going to go hunting for it, and I ain't going to take your word for it!
Be advised, all who read his posts: it would be wise NOT to take ROTC_DAD's word for anything!
Semper Fi!
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Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor. |
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War Dog
Captain
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 517
Location: Below Birmingham Alabama
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| Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, no link for us to verify what you posted, then no proof, and to be taken as just your opinion, and more lies by the left!
It's Way Past Time For The Gloves To Come Off!
FRIGGIN WAR WOOF!
_________________
"When people are in trouble, they call the cops.
When cops need help, they call the K-9 unit." |
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hist/student
Lieutenant
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 243
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| Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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retracted
Last edited by hist/student on Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Marine4life
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 591
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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So far you liberal trolls have totally missed the point once again. ROTC said that Bush ordered the torture in ABU. And compared Bush to Nazi's. Where the hell did ya get Sadaam and Clinton from that? I know take your right hand reach down low and pull it out of your A**. Nothing to add but trolling just like Kerry SEEEEEEEEE YAAAAA.
OK now back on topic, you made the accusation now prove it ROTC. Also I want you to prove Bush's links to the Nazi's or Hitler. Kerry is a COWARD, TRAITOR, and committed TREASON, I can prove that, come on now lets see where your facts are. Dam I just used the last of my troll repellant too, be right back I have to go to GOP headquarters to get a new can!! Semper Fi.
_________________
Helicopter Marine Attack Squadron 169 which is now HMLA-169. They added Huey's to compliment the Cobra effectiveness. When I served we just had Snakes. |
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fortdixlover
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 1476
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| Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| publius wrote: | | FDL wrote: | By the tenets of leftist moral relativism, one man's beheading is just another man's religious exercise. Don't you agree?
...
For those leftists who will get even more hysterical at my post above, I wish to point out it's a post of sarcasm directed at their hypocrisy. |
Well, as a member of the evil and incessantly reviled, in this forum, leftist liberal political philosophy let us check the moral relativism bona fides of God's chosen few intelligent and politically correct representatives here on earth, the conservative Kerry haters.
Here is a little quote from the NYT article:
| Quote: | | The memorandum, dated Aug. 1, 2002, defined torture narrowly under a federal law that prohibits it. Only pain like that accompanying "death, organ failure or the permanent impairment of a significant body function" qualifies, Mr. Bybee wrote. It went on to say torture is unlawful only if the infliction of pain is the offender's specific objective. "Even if the defendant knows that severe pain will result from his actions, if causing such harm is not his objective, he lacks the requisite specific intent," he wrote. |
So tell us, FDL, and whoever, is Mr. Bybee right morally and on the law? Please amplify your answer enough so that even a foolish, uneducated and morally benighted liberal like myself can grasp it. I'll give you the liberal take: He is wrong, wrong, wrong, morally and on the law. Worse, he is un-American.
Your turn. |
Publius is trying to get around admitting that the moral relativism of the left that's killed tens of millions is wrong and evil. Instead, what we see is "Nyah, nyah, yes, the moral relativism of the left has resulted in a death toll of tens of millions, but look at Bush's memo."
Pitiful.
Exactly what kind of person tries to compare the brutal, preventible death of tens of millions (or the brutal, savage beheadings with a steak knife) to this memo, anyway?
FDL
Last edited by fortdixlover on Tue Jun 29, 2004 8:25 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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