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RogerRabbit
Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 748
Location: Oregon
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 Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:33 am Post subject: I wish They would hurry and go |
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Promises, promises, promises - Its time to quit the promises already, and take the plunge
http://iht.com/bin/print_ipub.php?file=/articles/2005/02/06/news/refuge.html
| Quote: | The International Herald Tribune
Some in U.S. voting with their feet
By Rick Lyman The New York Times
Monday, February 7, 2005
VANCOUVER, British Columbia Christopher Key knows exactly what he would be giving up if he left Bellingham, Washington.
"It's the sort of place Norman Rockwell would paint, where everyone watches out for everyone else and we have block parties every year," said Key, a 56-year-old Vietnam War veteran and former magazine editor who lists Francis Scott Key, who wrote "The Star-Spangled Banner," among his ancestors.
But leave it he intends to do, and as soon as he can. His house is on the market, and he is busily seeking work across the border in Canada. For him, the re-election of George W. Bush was the last straw.
"I love the United States," he said as he stood on the Vancouver waterfront, staring toward the Coastal Range, which was lost in a gray shroud. "I fought for it in Vietnam. It's a wrenching decision to think about leaving. But America is turning into a country very different from the one I grew up believing in."
In the Niagara of liberal angst just after Bush's victory on Nov. 2, the Canadian government's immigration Web site reported a surge in inquiries from the United States, to about 115,000 a day from 20,000.
After three months, memories of the election have begun to recede. There has been an inauguration, even a State of the Union address.
Yet immigration lawyers say that Americans are not just making inquiries and that more are pursuing a move above the 49th parallel, fed up with a country they see drifting persistently to the right and abandoning the principles of tolerance, compassion and peaceful idealism they felt once defined the nation.
America is in no danger of emptying out. But even a small loss of population, many from a deep sense of political despair, is a significant event in the life of a nation that thinks of itself as a place to escape to. Firm numbers on potential immigrants are elusive.
"The number of U.S. citizens who are actually submitting Canadian immigration papers and making concrete plans is about three or four times higher than normal," said Linda Mark, an immigration lawyer in Vancouver.
Other immigration lawyers in Toronto, Montreal and Halifax, Nova Scotia, said they had noticed a similar uptick, though most put the rise at closer to threefold.
"We're still not talking about a huge movement of people," said David Cohen, an immigration lawyer in Montreal. "In 2003, the last year where full statistics are available, there were something like 6,000 U.S. citizens who received permanent resident status in Canada. So even if we do go up threefold this year, we're only talking about 18,000 people."
Still, that is more than double the population of Gettysburg, Pennsylvania. "For every one who reacts to the Bush victory by moving to a new country, how many others are there still in America, feeling similarly disaffected but not quite willing to take such a drastic step?" Cohen asked.
Melanie Redman, 30, assistant director of the Epilepsy Foundation in Seattle, said she had put her Volvo up for sale and hopes to be living in Toronto by the summer. She and her Canadian boyfriend, a Web site designer for Canadian nonprofit companies, had been planning to move to New York, but after Nov.2, they decided on Canada instead.
"I'm doing it," she said. "I don't want to participate in what this administration is doing here and around the world. Under Bush, the U.S. seems to be leading the pack as the world spirals down."
Redman intends to apply for a conjugal visa, which can be easier to get than the skilled worker visa that most Americans require. To do so, she must prove she and her boyfriend have had a relationship for at least a year, so she has collected supporting paperwork, like love letters, to present to the Canadian government.
"I'm originally from a poor, lead-mining town in Missouri, and I know a lot of the people there don't understand why I'm doing this," she said. "Even my family is pretty disappointed. And the fact is, it makes me pretty sad, too. But I just can't bear to pay taxes in the United States right now."
Compared with the other potential immigrants interviewed, Redman was far along in planning.
Mike Aves, 40, a financial planner in Palm Beach, Florida, where he has been active in the Young Democrats, said he was finding it almost impossible from that distance to land a job in Canada. "I've told my wife, I'd be willing to take a step down, socioeconomically, to move from white-collar work to a blue-collar job, if it would get us to Canada," he said.
Many of those interviewed said the idea of moving to Canada had been simmering in the backs of their minds for years, partly as a reaction to what they saw as a rightward drift in the United States and partly as a desire to live in a place they see as more tolerant, pacific and, yes, liberal. But for all, the re-election of Bush was decisive.
"Not everybody is prepared to live their political values, but these are people who are," said Jason Mogus, an Internet entrepreneur in Vancouver whose communicopia.net offers marketing services for progressive companies and nonprofit groups, and whose canadianalternative.com is often the first stop for Americans eager to learn about moving north.
"Immigration to Canada is not like packing your family in a car and moving across the state line," Mogus said. "It's a long process. It can take 18 months or even longer sometimes. And if you hire a lawyer to help you, it can cost thousands of dollars."
So Mogus said the response to the Web site, from all over the United States, had amazed him. Some are drawn by Canada's more tolerant attitude toward same-sex unions, he said, and there are a surprising number of middle-aged professionals.
"My wife and I have talked for a long time about perhaps retiring to a condo in downtown Vancouver," said Frederick Newmeyer, 61, a professor of linguistics at the University of Washington in Seattle. "But the election was the tipping point." |
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LimaCharlie
PO2
Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 386
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:01 am Post subject: |
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I got all excited before I read the article. Then I realized it has only gone from about 6,000 per year to 18,000 per year for the entire U.S. fleeing North. I was hoping for about a million from Portland going North so we could take back Oregon. I wonder how many per year come South.
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wwIIvetsdaughter
Captain
Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 513
Location: McAllen, Texas
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 3:00 am Post subject: |
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Whaaa, Whaa, Whaa, these sniveling liberals can ALL pack up and leave for all I care. Mostly though, I think its more barbra streisand..."look what you evil red-staters will be losing, all us sophisticated, latte-drinkers! Aren't you sorry you voted for Bush?" I'm still waiting for Alec Baldwin and whats his name, Horse Whisperer to get out. Its ATNA, all talk and no action!  |
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blue9t3
Admiral
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 1246
Location: oregon
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 4:33 am Post subject: |
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I think some should be forced to go, even if they dont want to go! 
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LewWaters
Admin
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 4:54 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | But America is turning into a country very different from the one I grew up believing in. |
Funny statement, I think. I too am a 56 year old Vietnam Veteran and under Bush, America is RETURNING to the America I grew up believing in.
Whiners as this remind me of the old axiom, "There were no cooks in Vietnam." 
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mtboone
Founder
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 470
Location: Kansas City, MO.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 5:11 am Post subject: |
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LewWaters, I never heard this, what does it mean or is a army, Marine or Air Force thing?
Whiners as this remind me of the old axiom, "There were no cooks in Vietnam."
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Terry Boone PCF 90
Qui Nhon 68-69 |
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GenrXr
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 1720
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 5:29 am Post subject: |
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If Mr. Key is truly a Vietnam Vet which is not documented by this Times article I propose contact with someone who remembers him from the war. Was he considered fit for duty and actually in combat? The reason I say this is it gets to the core of the ideological cause and manipulative effect. I personally believe he most likely if ever in the military during the Vietnam war was either not involved in combat or unfit for duty. People involved in combat during war rarely years later invoke their past unless they are either a politician or a partisan hack.
We must always bring to light these foolish ideological pawns for what they are.
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"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to stand by and do nothing." Edmund Burke (1729-1797), Founder of Conservative Philosophy |
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LewWaters
Admin
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:59 am Post subject: |
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Terry, the comment "there were no cooks in Viet Nam" comes from post Viet Nam War Stories. Seems no one will admit they were cooks or company clerks, but all were heroes. At least, those that want to brag.
I guess you Navy guys call them Sea Stories.
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PhantomSgt
Vice Admiral
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 972
Location: GUAM, USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 8:11 am Post subject: |
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I was also hoping for a mass exodus of those who do not stand up for America and take seriously their responsibility to defend her. What we do find is the same group of people who are all mouth and no action. They took to the streets in protest and vowed to leave the country if Bush was reelected to another term, yet they are still hanging around.
They spent hundreds of millions to ensure Bush was vanquished; yet he still remains in office to their chagrin. Someone once said, “A man is as good as his word.” yet these malcontents continue to remain in America. So can we safely say their “word” is no good? I truly expected Mr. Moore, Mr. Baldwin and His Excellency George Soros would move on now as they stated they would to other countries that would protect and agree with them on their views of the world.
So to these Gentlemen I offer the following challenge:
If it is a matter of being too lazy to fill out the immigration forms, I will help you.
If it is a matter of being too lazy to make your own travel reservations, I will make them for you.
If it is a matter of conscience that you finally realized you live in the greatest Nation in the history of mankind, I ask you to shut up and accept the fact that George Walker Bush is the leader of this Nation with a MANDATE from the people to lead us for the next four years.
GET OVER IT!
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Independent that leans right of center. |
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oasis
Lieutenant
Joined: 21 Aug 2004
Posts: 201
Location: Florida, want some sun? LoL!
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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Hello,
Canada is not all that it's chalked up to be.
Those who choose to leave should do there homework first.
My prayers are with those who choose to leave.
| Quote: | GENOCIDE is raging in the nation of Sudan.
It is now unquestionably the greatest humanitarian crisis in the world today.
Unfortunately, our political leadership is not acknowledging it. The reason for this is clear. Use of the term 'genocide,' under international law, carries with it an obligation for countries to act -- and action to save African lives carries too few political benefits.
Following the Nazi holocaust, a shocked international community cried, "Never again!" Never again would a dictator like Hitler be permitted to exterminate an ethnic group like the Jews. Never again would the world stand idly by while hundreds of thousands of people stood waiting to be slaughtered. Never again would such an evil be allowed to take root and flourish.
But it has. The list of post-Nazi genocides -- including Biafra, Cambodia, Rwanda, Congo and Sudan -- continues to grow. The international community, including Canada, has yet to demonstrate that it is serious about stopping genocide.
We recently observed the 10th anniversary of the Rwandan holocaust, where the world community stood idly by while extremists hacked to death more than 800,000 people in front of the world's media. This genocide was both predictable and preventable, yet the international community did nothing.
But no politician, no bureaucrat, no western official has paid any political price for this decision -- one which has wrought such unimaginable suffering on the entire region. U.S. president Bill Clinton, who led the way in 'doing nothing,' was re-elected. UN bureaucrat Kofi Annan, who gave the orders to 'do nothing,' was promoted to the top UN position of Secretary General.
Recently, the Canadian House of Commons voted to declare the Turkish slaughter of Armenians to be "genocide." Yet Canada's Liberal cabinet refused to support the motion. Foreign Affairs Minister Bill Graham urged parliamentarians not to recognize this genocide, fearing that it might adversely affect trade with Turkey. Canada's justice minister, Irwin Cotler, who only a few days before had issued strong pronouncements about the need to never stand idly by in the face of genocide, did not even bother to show up for the vote.
With political leadership like this, it is not surprising that genocide is mushrooming in Darfur, Sudan. As New York Times columnist Nicholas D. Kristof wrote in an April 14 editorial: "In the last l00 years, the United States has reacted to one genocide after another -- Armenians, Jews, Cambodians, Bosnians -- by making excuses at the time, and then saying, too late, 'Oh, if only we had known!'
"Well, this time we know what is happening in Darfur: 110,000 refugees have escaped into Chad and testify to the atrocities. How many more parents will be forced to choose whether their children are shot or burned to death before we get serious?"
On July 9, 2004, Sudan researcher Eric Reeves pleaded with the world to take action, concluding that if genocide is allowed to take its ugly course in Sudan, "It will not be because we did not know what was happening or what needed to be done. It will be because we ourselves, acquiescing in the face of political obstacles, judged these African lives not worth saving. It is difficult to imagine an uglier truth for history to record, but history will have no choice."
For Canadians, the moral implications of genocide in Sudan are even more disturbing. It was Canadian oil money and Canadian moral cover which helped to solidify Khartoum's brutal stranglehold on power in Sudan. It was this blood oil, backed by Canada's banks and the Canada Pension Plan, which provided Sudan's military junta with the resources to purchase the helicopter gunships and other weaponry of genocide. Sudan's holocaust is the direct result of failed Canadian foreign policy.
The real lesson of the tragedy in Sudan is that genocide will continue to occur until politicians pay a price for allowing it to occur. As long as turning a blind eye to genocide is the political path of least resistance, the cry of "never again" will have no meaning.
For God's people, who are commanded to "let justice roll down like a river," indifference is not a moral option.
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| Quote: | Talisman finally out of Sudan
By David F. Dawes
THE FIGHT to persuade Calgary-based Talisman Energy to leave Sudan is over.
According to Canadian Press (CP), Talisman completed a deal March 9 with ONGC Videsh Ltd., an India-based oil company. CP quoted Sudan's energy minister, Awad al-Jaz, who expressed satisfaction with the agreement. "We say welcome to the Indian company. This deal was done with the consent of all, and everybody is happy."
Talisman had owned a 25 percent stake in Sudan's Greater Nile Oil project. For the past several years, church groups and human rights organizations have assailed the company for its involvement, which many observers believed was aiding and abbetting Sudan's Islamic government in its vicious war against Christians, moderate Muslims and animists in southern Sudan.
While Talisman insisted that it was attempting to promote peaceful economic development, the ongoing criticism had an effect. "It has been very difficult for us to operate [in Sudan]," Talisman head Jim Buckee told CP. However, he added: "In the event of signing a peace agreement, we will come back to Sudan."
"The Canadian [company] was an honest and sincere partner," responded Al-Jaz. "Let us hope that the reasons that led them to pull out would soon disappear and they will come back without any pressure to invest in Sudan."
Long-time Talisman critic Eric Reeves, of Smith College in Northampton, Massachusetts, issued a strongly-worded response to the sale -- which, he said, "marks the end of a deeply disgraceful chapter in Canadian history." He added: "Canada's reputation as a stalwart defender of human rights and human security has been permanently stained by the complicity of a Canadian corporation in the ongoing oil-driven destruction of Sudan."
Reeves also criticized the Canadian government's Foreign Affairs department and prime minister Jean Chretien, maintaining that they "have behaved shamefully in not responding vigorously to the authoritatively established consequences of Talisman's presence in southern Sudan." He also had strong words for mainstream Canadian media which, he said "has, in the main, done a facile and thoroughly uninspired job of reporting on various aspects of Sudan's terrible fate -- and the role of a Canadian corporation in exacerbating massive human suffering and destruction."
Reeves saved his harshest condemnation for Buckee and the Talisman board of directors, declaring: "These are the people who failed to respond to the devastating indictment of Talisman's operations in Sudan, rendered by every single credible human rights report on oil development in this torn country. These are the people who failed to end the Khartoum regime's use of their airstrips for deadly helicopter gunship assaults on civilians. These are the people who provided revenues to the National Islamic Front regime for its genocidal military campaign against the people of the south. These are the people who accepted security for their operations in the form of massive scorched-earth warfare in and around their concession holdings."
Reeves concluded: "Evil is always with us. In the oil fields of southern Sudan, it has for too long had the face of Canada and Canadians."
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azTrish
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 12 Sep 2004
Posts: 133
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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Key, a 56-year-old Vietnam War veteran and former magazine editor who lists Francis Scott Key, who wrote "The Star-Spangled Banner," among his ancestors . . . No first name
Hmm, maybe these people who stress the lack of tolerance here, should practice what they PREACH and go to the Sudan and attempt to teach Tolerance there first. Where Canada seems to have so much influence and tolerance for the bad guys, they just may learn something. I am amazed at ignorant the ranters from the left truly are.
I just had a bit of a tiff with my son and a friend and I hate to get into politics with his friends.
I had just read an update from one of the units I had sent holiday goodies to and looked to see if all was well and read they had lost a member of their unit..admit it, we feel like they are part of our family and it truly affects you.. so when the numbnut said how stupid those house members looked with their purple fingers.. blah, how Bush should remember 50 % of the people didn't vote for him..
I blew, more than 50% voted for him and as you are referring to Dem's I would only allow 45% as legit. And you really need to get you information from other sources so you don't appear so dumb when you make these statements... I said, you do not have to ever vote for a republican but at least learn about who and what you are voting for I have a family I care for their future I resent individuals voting when they are so easily lead and so un informed.
I walked out of the room for a bit to cool...
Yes, so I have felt bad for blowing it thinking my poor son.
Trish
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AMOS
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 558
Location: IOWA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 3:31 pm Post subject: A backbone. |
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Yes, so I have felt bad for blowing it thinking my poor son
Don't worry about it. At least your son and friend will know the importance of a backbone. |
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DLI78
PO3
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 273
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| Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 6:59 am Post subject: |
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azTrish,
When your kid and his/her friend reach about 30 they will probably get a clue and stop letting idiot liberals think for them. That is, of course, unless you live in California (God help you).
| Quote: | | I resent individuals voting when they are so easily lead and so un informed. |
I agree heartily with that one! Here in California I wish they had either an IQ requirement for voting or a requirement that you could pass a test verifying you actually understand the issues before you can get a ballot.
Two examples: horse meat and bonds.
A few years back we actually passed an initiative that outlawed the use of horse meat for human consumption. While that hit McDonalds really hard, it isn't really a problem that you would notice here. What it means is I can buy 100 horses and sell them to Purina for cat and dog food and life is good as long as Rover and Fluffy are fat and happy. But if I sell ONE horse to some starving people in Mexico at a loss my next roommate will be Charles Manson.
And every time we have an election some halfwits decide it's a good time to grab some more tax money. So they have us vote on bonds and EVERY time they repeat the same LIE. "A bond is not a tax."
No, it isn't just a tax. It's a tax only a retard would love. It's a tax you pay INTEREST on at a rate that Tony Soprano would be embarassed to charge.
Last election we passed an initative to fund Children's Hospitals around the state. Now, if our representatives had a bit of sense and sold it to us as a necessary use of tax money I could support it. But no, they had to repeat the old lie about a bond being some kind of magical money tree that gives unlimited amounts of money without any cost to the taxpayers. So to help the poor children (which I agree with) we passed a bond of $750 million (or thereabouts) and an interest rate of over $750 million.
In our state bonds are paid by the general fund, which is funded by taxes. So to pay for $750 million in needed improvements we pay 1.5 billion in taxes.
When you decide to nuke California for the good of the country, please remember to hit everything on the coast north of Orange County. Those of us with measurable IQs (south and east of the target area) will be loudly cheering.
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DLI 78
Army Linguist
1978-1986 |
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GM Strong
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 1579
Location: Penna
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| Posted: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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Leave the Socialist Republic of Washington State for the refuge of Canada. Makes no sense to me. I just hope Key doesn't return for medical treatment even though it is 'free' in Canada, when you can get it. I would think with the new Gov. he would have some hope of higher taxes and more liberalism to fight for where he is. He may have been in the service during VN, but I wonder if he ever had an overseas tour.
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oasis
Lieutenant
Joined: 21 Aug 2004
Posts: 201
Location: Florida, want some sun? LoL!
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| Posted: Fri Feb 11, 2005 5:33 am Post subject: |
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Hello,
Canada in the news..
Do you still want to move there?
Canada PM quizzed over lost funds
Thursday, 10 February, 2005, 22:57 GMT
| Quote: | Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin has told an inquiry he had nothing to do with a scandal involving millions of dollars of misspent government funds.
Mr Martin was finance minister at the time when funds earmarked for promoting national unity ended up with companies with close ties to his Liberal party.
He told the inquiry, set up by him, that he had been too busy rescuing Canada's financial reputation abroad.
He is the first sitting prime minister to appear at an inquiry since 1873.
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Canada ex-PM faces funds scandal
Wednesday, 9 February, 2005, 02:40 GMT
| Quote: | Canada ex-PM faces funds scandal
Former Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien, whose government was engulfed in a scandal over misuse of funds, has defended his actions.
Mr Chretien is accused of mishandling money intended for a sponsorship and advertising programme.
It is alleged that huge sums were given to advertising agencies with ties to his party for little or no work.
Mr Chretien is only the third Canadian prime minister ever to testify before an official inquiry.
Denying the charges on Tuesday, Mr Chretien said the campaign was needed to keep the country together.
Between 1997 and 2001, $188m went to a project designed to promote national unity in the primarily French-speaking province of Quebec.
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Canadian prime minister sworn in
Friday, 12 December, 2003, 17:52 GMT
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Paul Martin has formally taken office as Canada's 21st prime minister, promising sweeping changes.
He replaces Jean Chretien, the longest serving leader of the major industrialised countries.
Mr Chretien agreed to step down after 10 years in office, with two years left of his term.
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