SwiftVets.com Forum Index SwiftVets.com
Service to Country
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Equal Time
Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    SwiftVets.com Forum Index -> Geedunk & Scuttlebutt
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Tanya
Senior Chief Petty Officer


Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 570

PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's all in the words! Evil or Very Mad

"If thought corrupts language, language can also corrupt thought."
George Orwell 1

http://www.internationaltaskforce.org/fctwww.htm

Then there are the polls and the way they are worded.

http://www.pollingreport.com/news.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Guest






PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sad It is also said that if men do not learn from their mistakes, they are doomed to repeat them. Remember Auschwitz?
Back to top
Fort Campbell
Vice Admiral


Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 896

PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:20 am    Post subject: Re: Equal Time Reply with quote

Navy_Navy_Navy wrote:

You know, it really sounds to me as if you think those of us who give a damn about whether Terri Schindler really wanted to die, and think that she really wasn't a "vegetable" and that she deserved our protection and awareness are a bunch of hypocrites for not protesting this sort of action all the time.

And maybe that's because it's not happening all the time.

Maybe until Terri Schindler's case, we had not an inkling that this had become a country in which it's acceptable to starve a helpless, innocent person to death.



(Deleted by Me#1) This business of removing feeding tubes and starving people to death is not new. The first Hallmark case for this was Nancy Cruzon in the 80's. I have already put a Link on here about her case which garnered national attention, but I don't think any of you bothered to read it. I suggest that you Goggle her name and educate yourselves as to exactly how we got to this point and why the laws are written as they are.

I honestly think that the only reason that most of you here jumped onto this case was because Michael Schiavo is a womanizer. What about all of the others whose feeding tubes are removed everyday by siblings and parents in this country? Don't they deserve as much zealous defense of their rights? I saw a segment on CNN the night Terri died that told the story of five brothers reared Catholic in Chicago. The oldest brother fell down a flight of stairs three years ago while taking care of their father. He was left PVS. They showed this man in his nursing home room. He looked just like Terri except that his eyes were closed. His brothers are going to tell the doctors to remove his feeding tube in a few weeks. The man had no living will, but the brothers said that they had all discussed this subject before his accident. This man will die the same way that Terri did. But it will not get the media attention of the Schiavo case because there will be no family squabble and no adulterous husband to catch media attention and to inflame the rest of you.

Will his death be discussed in a dozen threads on here? No.

Do I think that is hypocritical? Yes, I do.

Admin note: Please refrain from ad hominem comments

Me#1
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Fort Campbell
Vice Admiral


Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 896

PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nancy Cruzon”s cerbebral cortex was destroyed due to lack of oxygen in 1983, and who was kept alive for 7 years by a feeding tube.
Nancy, in her persistent vegetative state (PVS) could no longer experience anything of the world around her, except perhaps pain. Determined to see their daughter at peace, her parents undertook a prolonged legal struggle that led to the US Supreme Court.

The Supreme Court ruled that hydration and nutrition were life-prolonging treatments that a patient could refuse (and which could be terminated in the cases of incompetent persons who had expressed clear preferences that they would not want to be kept alive without higher brain functions).

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/6803.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Fort Campbell
Vice Admiral


Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 896

PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another article obtained by a simple Google:

Nancy Cruzan

Cruzan v. Director, Missouri Department of Health, et al, 497 U.S. 261; 110 S. Ct. 2841; 111 L. Ed. 2d 224; 1990 U.S. Lexis


In January 1983, twenty-five-year old Nancy Cruzan lost control of her car as she traveled down a Missouri road. The car overturned, and she was discovered, lying face down in a ditch, without detectable respiratory or cardiac function. Emergency medical technicians were able to restore her breathing and heartbeat, and she was transported to a hospital in an unconscious state. A neurosurgeon there diagnosed her as having sustained probable brain damage, compounded by significant oxygen deprivation. The estimated length of the period without oxygen was twelve to fourteen minutes. (Permanent brain damage generally results after six minutes without oxygen.)

Cruzan remained in a coma for approximately three weeks, and then progressed to an unconscious state in which she was able to orally ingest some nutrition. In order to ease feeding and further her recovery, surgeons implanted a feeding and hydration tube with the consent of her then husband.

In October 1983, she was admitted to a state hospital. Subsequent rehabilitative efforts proved unsuccessful. It became apparent that she had virtually no chance of regaining her mental faculties, and her parents—who had been appointed as her coguardians—asked the hospital to terminate the medically assisted nutrition and hydration procedures. The hospital refused to honor the request without court approval.

The Cruzans then filed a declaratory judgment action in a Missouri trial court, in which they sought judicial authorization of their request. A guardian ad litem was appointed for Nancy. The trial court, following a hearing, entered an order directing the hospital to follow the parent's instructions, based upon its findings on (1) the permanent and irreversible damage that she had suffered as a result of prolonged oxygen deprivation; (2) its belief that a person in Cruzan's condition had a fundamental right under the Missouri and Federal Constitutions to refuse or direct the withdrawal of "death prolonging procedures"; and (3) her expressed thoughts at age twenty-five, in somewhat serious conversation with her housemate, that if sick or injured, she would not wish to continue her life unless she could live at least halfway normally, suggested that she would not wish to continue on with her nutrition and hydration given her present condition.

Both the state and the guardian ad litem appealed. The Supreme Court of Missouri, reversing the lower court, expressed the view that (1) although Cruzan was in a "persistent vegetative state," she was neither dead within the meaning of Missouri's statutory definition of death nor terminally ill; (2) Cruzan's right to refuse treatment—whether such right proceeded from a constitutional right of privacy or a common-law right to refuse treatment—did not outweigh Missouri's strong policy favoring the preservation of life, as embodied in the Missouri living will statute; (3) her conversation with her housemate was unreliable for the purpose of determining her intent, and thus insufficient to support the parents' claim to exercise substituted judgment on her behalf; and (4) no person could assume the choice of terminating medical treatment for an incompetent person in the absence of either the formalities required under the living will statute or "clear and convincing, inherently reliable evidence," which was absent in Cruzan's case.

The United States Supreme Court upheld that ruling. It found that due process was not violated by the Missouri requirement that an incompetent person's wishes in regard to the withdrawal of life-sustaining treatment be proved by clear and convincing evidence. In the end, however, further witnesses satisfied Missouri courts that such clear and convincing evidence of her wishes did exist, and medically assisted nutrition and hydration were removed in December of 1990. Cruzan died two weeks later.

Missouri now allows health care directives (though not living wills) to instruct that medically assisted nutrition and hydration be removed after a diagnosis of permanent or persistent vegetative state has been made.

(See Withholding and Withdrawing Treatment, the Principle of Respect for Autonomy, and Surrogate Decision Making.)



© Sisters of Charity of Leavenworth Health System
webmaster@sclhs.net

http://www.sclhsc.org/mission_vision_values/ethics/nancy_cruzan.asp
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin


Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777

PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nancy Cruzan was determined by more than one doctor to be in a "Persistent Vegetative State." There were not other doctors to come forward and insist that she was NOT PVS. There was no indication to her family that she was alive, in there.

She did not brighten all over when her mother entered the room. She did not wave her arms in time to music. She did not express pleasure in reaction to foods or other physical care. She did not try to speak when spoken to. She did not laugh at jokes or silliness or cry in anticipation of pain.

Please take note that in Cruzan's case, new evidence to support withdrawal of the feeding tube was presented on appeal - and it was heard!

Terri Schindler was not permitted ANY new evidence to be entered on her behalf, no matter how compelling. (perhaps even BECAUSE it was compelling in its support of her right to live!)

Apparently you missed my point that Terri tried to say, "I want to live" and they killed her anyway.

If I had known then what I know now, that dehydration is a terrible way to die, I'm sure I would have been just as angry and frustrated. The fact is, the entire public (including me) has been sold a bill of goods. Much of our society has bought into many of the tenets of the "right to die" movement - little by little, chip by chip.

It's taken a case like this to wake some of us up, and I include myself in that. I've said right from the start that until a few weeks ago, I thought this was a family matter and that her parents were probably (understandably) in denial.

It was the FACTS and the unanswered questions in this case that persuaded me that I was WRONG.

Terri deserved to have evidence in favor of her life presented to the court - she got less due process than a convicted murderer.

Call me a hypocrite if that makes you feel better, but it doesn't change the fact that Terri Schindler was killed without regard to the fact that there was clearly a PERSON in there and without the due process guaranteed by our constitution.

This is acceptable to you?
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Guest






PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Navy_Navy_Navy wrote:
Nancy Cruzan was determined by more than one doctor to be in a "Persistent Vegetative State." There were not other doctors to come forward and insist that she was NOT PVS. There was no indication to her family that she was alive, in there.

She did not brighten all over when her mother entered the room. She did not wave her arms in time to music. She did not express pleasure in reaction to foods or other physical care. She did not try to speak when spoken to. She did not laugh at jokes or silliness or cry in anticipation of pain.

Please take note that in Cruzan's case, new evidence to support withdrawal of the feeding tube was presented on appeal - and it was heard!

Terri Schindler was not permitted ANY new evidence to be entered on her behalf, no matter how compelling. (perhaps even BECAUSE it was compelling in its support of her right to live!)

Apparently you missed my point that Terri tried to say, "I want to live" and they killed her anyway.

If I had known then what I know now, that dehydration is a terrible way to die, I'm sure I would have been just as angry and frustrated. The fact is, the entire public (including me) has been sold a bill of goods. Much of our society has bought into many of the tenets of the "right to die" movement - little by little, chip by chip.

It's taken a case like this to wake some of us up, and I include myself in that. I've said right from the start that until a few weeks ago, I thought this was a family matter and that her parents were probably (understandably) in denial.

It was the FACTS and the unanswered questions in this case that persuaded me that I was WRONG.

Terri deserved to have evidence in favor of her life presented to the court - she got less due process than a convicted murderer.

Call me a hypocrite if that makes you feel better, but it doesn't change the fact that Terri Schindler was killed without regard to the fact that there was clearly a PERSON in there and without the due process guaranteed by our constitution.

This is acceptable to you?


Again you are right here! I am not going to reitterate what you put forth here since these are my sentiments also.

However, I have come to the conclusion, that those of us here that are divided will remain divided. It is in all our best interests to respect one anothers feelings and move on.

It is like trying to talk to a liberal. It is insane to think either side will see it the way we do.

Fort Campbell, I respect you and your right to have your opinions. I have an affored advantage here that I also came to knew you a bit and it is because of that that I can understand why you feel the way you do.

Please, my self included, lets not go on about an issue where all our points have been made, some agree it was wrong, some agree it was right. Lets all just learn to live with it and move on and hope that the next Terri will not be used in the way Terri Schiavo has been, whether you agree with what happened or you do not.

This is my personal humble opinion....and you can disagree with that too.
I am not here to change minds, just speak what is on mine respectfully without offending others. Smile
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    SwiftVets.com Forum Index -> Geedunk & Scuttlebutt All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group