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Bob51
Seaman
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 156
Location: Belfast
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 Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 1:42 pm Post subject: Silencing PoWs - conspiracy theory, hoax or what? |
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http://www.deepblacklies.co.uk/kiss_the_boys_goodbye.htm
"KISS THE BOYS GOODBYE
By David Guyatt"
some "fair use" extracts.
| Quote: | American Air Force pilot, Lt. Colonel David L. Hrdlicka, flew the lead plane in a flight of four F105 fighter/bombers that departed Takhli Air Base on the morning of 18 May 1965. The aircraft has been ordered to interdict and bomb a segment of road at Sam Neua, Laos. Hrdlicka's aircraft was hit by groundfire during his bombing attack forcing him to eject. He parachuted safely to the ground where he was captured by communist Pathet Lao forces.
Colonel Hrdlicka's flight into captivity has become a remarkable story for a number of reasons. Not least is the fact that he has been officially reported as "Killed in Action," but has also died in captivity on a number of distinct and separate occasions. But each time Hrdlicka manages to survive - embarrassing certain "elements" in his government who wish he would have the grace to stay dead. |
| Quote: | | The US, however, appears to be playing another sort of game entirely. Rather than trying to rescue their prisoners, they were planning to forget them hoping they'd die. More disturbing still, elite Special Forces troops were tasked with locating and assassinating some American prisoners of war. The soldiers were part of the US Army's Intelligence Support Activity - or ISA for short - and had been commandeered by a very secretive arm of the CIA known simply as "The Activity. |
| Quote: | | Investigators learned that Garwood was one of the prisoners who had been ordered to be killed in captivity. The order was given to a former member of the US Army's super secret Special Operations Group (SOG). SOG was assigned elite Special Forces to engage in a variety of special warfare operations throughout the Vietnam war and included Search, Locate & Annihilate Missions (SLAM). |
| Quote: |
What they revealed was shocking. Despite signing the 1973 peace accord the US continued to engage in a secret war in Southeast Asia. In fact, the US government had intensified its activity in Cambodia and Laos by using local "proxy" forces and others including mercenaries and US servicemen. This secret war continued right up to the early 1990's. |
| Quote: | For them, Nixon's peace with Vietnam was one of the biggest betrayals of American history.
The existence of live American POW's threatened to blow their secret war wide open by revealing the group's deep involvement in the drugs and weapons trade. This, in turn, would have also revealed their very presence as manipulators behind the political scenes. |
| Quote: | | But as Perot soon discovered, great wealth and special access to the most powerful man in the world was not enough. His efforts to learn the truth about American POW's was blocked at every turn. Perot also strongly suspected that Vice President George Bush was working to inhibit his access and involvement. Asked one day by VP Bush how his investigation was going, Perot snapped " Well, George, I go in looking for prisoners, but I spend all my time discovering the government has been moving drugs around the world and is involved in arms deals… I can't get at the prisoners because of the corruption among our own covert people." |
| Quote: | | Father Charles Shelton, a USAF Catholic chaplain was accused of homosexuality by another airman. The charge was believed to be malicious and designed to stop the chaplain from talking about Vietnam POWs. Shelton had been asked to counsel a sergeant based in the Philippines. The sergeant revealed his involvement in a special medical evacuation mission that had taken place in early 1986. A C-130 transport plane had flown in great secrecy to Haiphong, Vietnam. Two other aircraft had flown to Hanoi. The aircraft had their USAF markings removed and replaced by Red Crosses. The planes returned to the Philippines carrying a total of 86 men. They were taken to a USAF hospital and placed in a "classified" ward. All were Caucasian and all weighed below one hundred pounds. A few died soon after their evacuation, due to sickness. Another witness who briefly worked in the ward said some of the inmates told her they were "prisoners-of-war from Vietnam." One of them said "he'd never see civilisation again." They had been prisoners of the Vietnamese government and now were prisoners of the American government. |
| Quote: | | All believed in covert warfare and felt betrayed by Nixon's 1973 peace accords. Thereafter, they formulated "unofficial policy that said that sentiment must never again get in the way of fighting communism." |
| Quote: | | After that POWs were viewed as dangerous to "U.S. national security" and were to be abandoned or killed to ensure their silence. |
Has anyone read the book in which these claims are made?
bob51 |
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Lieutenant
Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 213
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| Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| This reads like something George Soros paid for! Where are the references? |
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GenrXr
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 1720
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 6:52 am Post subject: |
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Bob 51, are you being serious?
_________________
"An activist is the person who cleans up the water, not the one claiming its dirty."
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to stand by and do nothing." Edmund Burke (1729-1797), Founder of Conservative Philosophy |
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Lieutenant
Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 213
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| Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 6:57 am Post subject: |
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This is the so called author that wrote that garbage? I woould say he was either old VVAW or closely associated with such ilk. Garbage. A lame attempt at rewriting history. In my opinion, he should be shot unless he can back up his claims. Why put POW/MIA famlies through such? Only for money or other motivations. Unless someone can prove to me the worthiness of this crap, then I would ask the moderator to consider removing it.
| Quote: | About David Guyatt
Following a twenty eight year career in investment banking (Member AIBD) based in the City of London, David’s last position was Associate Director & Treasurer of the Forfaiting division of a major international bank.
<snip>
David has prepared background papers on Anti Personnel Electromagnetic Weapons for the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) following an invitation to speak on the subject at their 1996 international symposium in Montreaux, Switzerland. He was a contributing member of ICRCs SIrUS Project that sought to define criteria for judging Abhorrent Weapons.
He has written for the World Development Movement on his “insiders” knowledge of international weapons financing. Using his insiders knowledge of weapons financing he assisted in the two-part World In Action TV documentary that exposed Britain’s weapon trail to Indonesia, broadcast in April 1997. Additionally, he assisted Swiss TV in their documentary programme on Non Lethal Weapons broadcast in early 1997. He has also written a number of feature articles that are available for free download on this website.
David has spent the last eight years investigating the story of gold and other treasures plundered by the Axis powers during WWII and what became of these vast riches. His electronic manuscript THE SECRET GOLD TREATY reveals many hitherto secrets that have surrounded this fifty-year-old enigma. He has also published a companion volume called THE PROJECT HAMMER FILE, and has followed up with PROJECT HAMMER RELAODED. Presently, he continues working on follow-up investigations of these and related matters.
***
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LewWaters
Admin
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State
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| Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 7:03 am Post subject: |
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A web search of the author reveals to me that there probably isn't a conspiracy theory trashing America that he doesn't support.
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Bob51
Seaman
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 156
Location: Belfast
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| Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 9:32 am Post subject: |
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http://www.miafacts.org/bobkiss.html
I thought it would be much easier to get a definitive debunking, but the endorsement from retired Green Beret Major Mark Smith seems to have kept the story alive. I found it interesting to see that the majority of Amazon reviews of the Jensen-Stevenson books were well-received by "veterans" posting comments.
Is there a better debunking website than "miafacts"?
bob51 |
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Bob51
Seaman
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 156
Location: Belfast
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Bob51
Seaman
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 156
Location: Belfast
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| Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | MAJOR MARK SMITH
UNITED STATES ARMY SPECIAL FORCES, RETIRED
Mark A. Smith Sr. was born in Lima, Ohio, USA on 26 April 1945. Prior to joining the U.S. Army, Major Smith lived in Indiana, New Mexico and California. The following is a chronology of Major Smith’s military career and his activities since retirement.
DATES ACTIVITY AREA
1963-64 Training Fort Ord CA
1964 Parachute Infantryman Germany
1964-65 Special Forces Weaponsman Germany
1965 Special Forces Medical Specialist Fort Bragg N.C.*
1965-66 Special Forces Medical Specialist Vietnam
1966-68 Infantry Platoon Sergeant Vietnam
1968 Infantry Platoon Leader Vietnam
1969 Team Leader Phoenix Program Vietnam
1969 Vietnamese Ranger Battalion Advisor Vietnam
1970 Company Commander 101st Airborne Division Vietnam
1971 Instructor Ranger Department Fort Benning GA
1971-72 Senior Battalion Advisor Vietnam
1972 Prisoner of War Cambodia
1973 Hospital San Francisco CA
1973-74 Battalion Operations Officer Korea
1975 Refugee Coordinator California
1976-79 Company Commander Special Forces Fort Bragg N.C.**
1979-81 Evaluator Reserve Special Forces California
1981-84 Special Forces Detachment Commander Korea ***
1985 Retired from Active Service Fort Bragg N.C.
1986-present Military / Intelligence Advisor ASIA **** |
I see the good Major claims to have been a Team Leader on the Phoenix programme. Perhaps that explains some of his views.
bob51 |
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GM Strong
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 1579
Location: Penna
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| Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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Has the Major been trained to fly an SR-71 Blackbird?? ...was he the only secret suvivor of the crash of Ron Brown's airplane in Bosnia?? ..and has he been in contact with Calypso Louie's Mother Ship?? 
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8th Army Korea 68-69 |
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Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 213
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| Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| World Development Movement = SOCIALIST MOVEMENT |
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Bob51
Seaman
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 156
Location: Belfast
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 5:01 am Post subject: |
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| GM Strong wrote: | | Has the Major been trained to fly an SR-71 Blackbird?? ...was he the only secret suvivor of the crash of Ron Brown's airplane in Bosnia?? ..and has he been in contact with Calypso Louie's Mother Ship?? |
GM,
I assume you are saying he is a well-known veteran "phony" and fake?
Remember, I am neither American nor a veteran. I have almost no knowledge of how to detect U.S. phonies since I assume they are easily outed by veteran communities such as this one.
Give me a pointer to a "real veteran approved" list of phonies and I will do the correlation with "the Major".
While at it, you might enlighten me on a bit of a puzzle. It seems that real veterans have been given a very rough deal in the U.S. following their service to their country. Why then, would it be advantageous to unscrupulous individuals to claim service they did not give, medals they were not awarded and membership of a community that can out a phony? Is U.S. society giving some benefit to veterans (and therefore to phonies) that I am unaware of?
You might send your additional three claims to "the Major" to add to his already impressively long list. 
| Quote: | AWARDS and DECORATIONS (USA):
Distinguished Service Cross, Silver Star, Bronze Star (eight awards), Air Medal (3 awards), Meritorious Service Medal (3 awards), Army Commendation Medal (three awards), Purple Heart (4 awards), Humanitarian Service Medal, Ranger Tab, Special Forces Tab, Master Parachutist Badge.
AWARDS and DECORATIONS (FOREIGN):
King’s Medal from Thailand, Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry (with two palms and two Silver Stars), Vietnamese, Singaporean, Malaysian, Korean, Philippine and Indonesian Master Parachute Badges. Thailand Army and Police Master Parachute Badge with HALO Award.
SYNOPSIS:
Major Mark a Smith joined the US Army at age seventeen in 1963 and by 1966 was the youngest Staff Sergeant in the Army. In 1968 while leading an Infantry Platoon in Vietnam, he was commissioned a Second Lieutenant by General William Westmoreland. In early 1969 he led a special unit operating throughout Vietnam and the border areas of Laos, Cambodia and North Vietnam, answering directly to William Colby, the Deputy Ambassador to Vietnam. Later that year he advised two different Ranger Battalions in combat. In 1970 he commanded an Infantry Company in the 101st Airborne Division in Northern South Vietnam. In 1971 he was the Principle Instructor for patrolling techniques in the US Army Ranger School.
Upon his return to Vietnam he took command in the battle of Loc Ninh during early April 1972. While battle raged he was wounded on twelve separate occasions (six bullets and thirty two major shrapnel wounds.) He was credited with personally destroying a number of enemy tanks and calling US air strikes on his own position a number of times, to drive off the overwhelming enemy force. In interviews with General Tran Van Tra, Peoples Army of Vietnam, he admitted to losing nearly ten thousand men at Loc Ninh.
After escaping from the camp, after it was overrun, he was sighted by US aircraft and bombed by friendly fire. While trying to evade enemy forces he was knocked unconscious by a rocket propelled grenade and captured.
During his time in a jungle prison in Cambodia he was kept chained in a cage and later in a hole in the ground after attempting to escape. Upon his release, he was honored by the US Army by being selected to be the first US Army POW returned to the USA on 14 February 1973.
After six months in hospital he returned to duty. The rest of his career was spent in Special Operations. Upon his retirement he sued President Reagan for failing to take action on intelligence indicating the continuing survival of American POW’s in Laos, Vietnam and Cambodia.
He has worked with various resistance groups and Governments in Asia in an attempt to bring democratic change. He has seen combat with resistance groups in Burma, Laos and Cambodia. He also served as a personal bodyguard for Princess Kethy Tioloung, Deputy Director of UNESCO, during her stay in Cambodia.
He is consulted by numerous members of the US Congress and foreign Governments on the political and security situation in Southeast Asia.
He has tracked the activities of Mr. Hun Sen, the Second Prime Minister of Cambodia for twenty five years. In 1972 Hun Sen was a young member of the Vietnamese Security Unit at the prison in Kratie Province, Cambodia where Major Mark was held.
At one time Major Smith felt Hun Sen was the only leader with enough charisma to lead his people. But as detailed in this article, his investigation discovered a terrible reality that may return Cambodia to open warfare and a reoccupation by Vietnam.
Major Smith is a member of the American Press Association and contributes articles to various publications. |
Is there no way to do online checks even of the "medals"?
bob51 |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 5:40 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Why then, would it be advantageous to unscrupulous individuals to claim service they did not give, medals they were not awarded and membership of a community that can out a phony? Is U.S. society giving some benefit to veterans (and therefore to phonies) that I am unaware of? |
I think I can answer this, at least partly.
During the war, these Vietnam phonies lent credence to such groups as VVAW. You look at pictures of demonstrations of the time - everyone's in various stages of dis-uniformed fatigues. How many were real vets? How many were real combat vets? I wouldn't hazard a guess, but I do know that fatigue shirts and jackets and peacoats were popular in my junior high and high school as wearing apparel at the time. You could get them at Army/Navy surplus stores.
After the war, when it began to ***** at the consciousness of our culture that we had slandered and maligned an entire generation of veterans, many who had never served claimed VV status (or claimed service much more prestigious than that of which they had actually achieved) as a way of recieving kudos, acceptance and recognition. Stolen Honor. Stolen Valor.
And in some cases, VA benefits.
The resources for exposing phonies on line are relatively few and are pretty much "community related" - for instance, the SEALs police their community for frauds and another group guards the genuine Medal of Honor awardees, both of these groups exposing phony claimants in public by putting their faces, locales and phony stories on the web.
There is no database to which you can resort to find out if a specific person served in the units which they claimed or if they were awarded most of the various ribbons and medals.
This Mark A Smith guy sure has his detractors, though. At the least, he seems controversial. It appears that he may have been one of those who bilked MIA families out of support in order to go find their family members and get them out. He claimed to have hard evidence of 572 POW's which could be handed over to him at any time, back in 1994. He never came up with a shred of anything substantial to support this claim.
This site appears to have lined up the charges against this man's character most comprehensively of those I looked at:
http://www.miafacts.org/mrksmith.htm
Naturally, I'm not going to form an opinion based on only a few web sites, but his condemnation of Kerry for being a phony sure looks like it could be a case of pot > kettle > black.
Hope this is at least a little bit helpful,
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother
Last edited by Navy_Navy_Navy on Wed May 11, 2005 5:56 am; edited 1 time in total |
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LewWaters
Admin
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Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 5:54 am Post subject: |
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Bob, I think nearly every Veteran has his own method of seeing through falsehoods. One most all of us use is that when a Veteran is making bragging claims about exploits and boasting about all the action he saw, chances are, he didn't.
I once made the statement here that there were no cooks in Viet Nam. When asked about it, I answered that if you listen around all the various watering holes, those bragging the loudest about their heroics were probably the cooks, but don't want to admit it.
There is no shame attached to being a cook or any other support role, all jobs were necessary. But, some seem to feel claiming to have fought in non-existent battles or battles they were never at gives them more prestige. When called on it, many I have spoken to automatically claim to have lost their military records in the Records center fire in 1973. Unfortunately for them, they don't realize those records lost were primarily WW2 Vets and most all have been rebuilt by now.
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Bob51
Seaman
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 156
Location: Belfast
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 7:53 am Post subject: |
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Navy, Lew
Thanks, that's very helpful. The miafacts link seems a damning indictment and I'll read it again to see how the pieces fit.
There was a reference to the Major's site and I noticed his main articles were commentary on Mr Kerry.
http://www.rossie.com/johnkerry.htm
http://www.rossie.com/kerryband.htm
At least the sentiments expressed there, matched the sentiments generally expressed here.
I only ended up with this thread of enquiry because of GenrXr's reference to PoWs being "skinned alive". Search engine responses to that took me to the Tatum Chronicles and commentary sites on Tatum also had commentary on Smith. So, is Tatum similarly debunked and his story of Chinese torture?
By the way, researching these stories certainly is more interesting than the usual television or film distractions being referred to in other threads.
Regards
Bob51 |
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Bob51
Seaman
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 156
Location: Belfast
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| Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 8:18 am Post subject: |
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Stranger and stranger.....
I see that Major Smith's home page recommends the same "miafacts":
| Quote: | For the sake of balance:
If you're interested in views representing the entirely opposite end of the POW/MIA issue,
try Joe Schlatter's web site |
This is the last paragraph of http://www.rossie.com/zips.htm
In the "Reports" section you will find
The article is Copyright so the following are a few "fair use" extracts:
| Quote: | A CRITIQUE OF COLONEL JOE SCHLATTER'S "MIA FACTS PAGE."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Colonel Schlatter, on his web site, would appear to provide cogent arguments for the theory, that the Vietnamese returned all living Americans in 1973. The problem with this idea, is that it is known by the Colonel to be untrue and only through "sleight of hand" can he try and ignore the true facts.
First Colonel Schlatter, a veteran of one tour in combat with the Field Artillery, sets himself up as an expert on the Vietnam War and Vietnamese.
...
..
The Colonel is either being less than truthful or he is incredibly gullible and stupid. I regret to say the former appears to be true.
Colonel Schlatter goes into great detail about the book "Kiss The Boys Goodbye." He roundly trashes Monika Jensen-Stevenson's ability to separate fact from fiction. He speaks specifically of one Robin Gregson. He knows nothing about Gregson, except of course, what has been put out by one James Coyne. Internal DIA documents tell a different story ...
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This is a lie ..
...
Contrary to the assertions of Colonel Schlatter, our lack of "cooperation" was at the direction of my attorney in the case; Mark Smith vs. Ronald Reagan. A fact that Colonel Schlatter seems to have missed in all of this.
What the good Colonel fails to tell you on his web site is that DIA files are filled with letters, films, tapes and etc. of some of my fellow POWs damning their country and whining to go home. But only Garwood gets the treatment from Colonel Schlatter.
Colonel Schlatter quotes the "Old Boy Network" at DIA extensively. He claims agreement that no POWs were kept after 1973. Yet, that opinion was not shared by Lieutenant General Eugene Tighe, the former Director of DIA. That man had more intelligence at his beck and call than anything Colonel Joe Schlatter ever saw or even heard rumors about. Further, unlike Colonel Schlatter, General Tighe was not in the Artillery in Vietnam, he was in Intelligence. He also served as the principle Intelligence Officer at CINPAC Headquarters in Hawaii. He did not share Colonel Schlatter's view on POWs or Garwood.
Colonel Mike Peck resigned from the office Colonel Schlatter came to occupy. He said the folks there had a "mindset to debunk." He was describing the same people Colonel Schlatter uses to buttress his argument about all POWs being dead, except for those of us who returned in 1973.
Here is what Colonel Schlatter does not tell you on his web site. He does not tell you about how our Government passed off an individual at the Central Identification lab as an "Forensic Anthropologist" and "Doctor," when he was neither. He does not tell you that the technique devised to identify remains by this same non-doctor, was judged by the true Forensic Anthropologist community to be "voodoo forensics."
He does not tell you a Lao, the DIA claimed made a Romanised symbol in the middle of his field, knew no ABC's as a point of reference. He will tell you that other people in the mountains, who could neither read nor write in their own language, let alone English, stamped, cut and burned initials, numbers and in some cases, full names into the landscape, just for grins.
He does not tell you about the deployed parachutes found along a track of a burning AC-130 Gunship. He does not tell you about the piles of bloody bandages found by the search team.
All of this is in the files of the office once occupied by Colonel Schlatter. He does not tell you the search team was controlled by US personnel. He does not even mention it. But he tells you there was no evidence of survival. That is more than a mere oversight by Colonel Schlatter, it is a lie. He has a ball trashing the late Czech General Senja. He calls him a liar, because he spoke of American POWs being taken to the USSR from Korea and Vietnam. Senja was no "fly by night" POW activist, he was employed by the U.S. Government after his defection. I suppose they just wanted to help him out?
They believed Senja enough to hire him to deal with other intelligence matters, but they knew he was lying about POWs? The Colonel protests too much! Colonel Schlatter claims that Senator Bob Smith, Garwood and Billy Hendon fabricated a camp on an island, under the noses of the Vietnamese Communists. He does not tell you that Hendon and Smith also found a cistern that DIA claimed did not exist at 17 Ly Nam De Street in Hanoi. Garwood claimed to have seen American POWs bathing in this cistern long after the war. Colonel Schlatter's office claimed there was no cistern there, let alone POWs. Maybe Smith and Hendon and the ABC film crew that filmed the scene, fabricated the cistern also. Seems to me that Smith and Hendon did what DIA did not do. They went and looked.
Oh, by the way, the Colonel also neglects to tell you that Billy Hendon also worked in that same POW Office at DIA as the good Colonel did. That is where the majority of intelligence Hendon speaks of came from. Not some "Asian scam artist" or "American POW Activist," but from Colonel Schlatter's own files. Colonel Schlatter does not mention Colonel Mike Peck, Commander Chip Beck or Mr. Bill Bell on his web site. All of these people also worked for DIA in the POW arena. All had much more extensive combat experience in Vietnam than Colonel Schlatter. All feel we left men behind in Southeast Asia. I guess Colonel Schlatter and those he names as the "good guys" are just a lot smarter than these seasoned veterans.
Of course Colonel Schlatter has blatantly lied about some things. But I wouldn't want anyone to think ill of him for merely claiming to have been Commander Beck's rating officer, when in actuality, they had never met. But that should be an indicator of how reliable he is.
Frankly, after reading Colonel Schlatter's material from his web site, I can only quote the erstwhile, non-boxing, former Senator from Wyoming, Alan Simpson; "Lightweight stuff." Present your argument Colonel, but don't lie. God will get you! |
These extracts mangle the story somewhat, so it will be better to follow the link and peruse the orginal
Schlatter v Smith
Looks like personal antipathy, but at least they do reference each others' sites in the interest of balance.
Still intrigued but I have no idea how to assess the respective merits of Messrs Schlatter and Smith.
Regards
Bob51 |
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