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Navy_Navy_Navy
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Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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 Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:13 pm Post subject: Re: Don't attack Kerry's medals |
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| DougReese wrote: | Bill, I disagree. I think they should repeat the old news, such as the three PHs required no hospitilization and no (or little) time off.
I also think they should make a big deal, a huge deal of the fact that they think Kerry's medals weren't deserved.
I am sure their private investigator came up with all kinds of dirt on Kerry.
I am just as sure the general public will accept this information as honest and forthright, and vote accordingly. |
Gee, Doug it sounds like you just might be catching a glimpse of what these guys have known for years. 
But, how do you know that hiring a private investigator was necessary? These guys served with him and some have been in touch with him over the years - enough to tell some hair-curling stories all by themselves.
Hell, just the Admiral's story of Kerry's 45 minute phone call just before SBVFT went public sent up red flags all over the field.
Old news? Already some speculation as to some NEW news included.
I hope this is really clear - it's not the medals - the medals are a tiny part of the whole picture. (No big deal.)
So is asking for Swifts at a time when he thought that they (by his own words) had little to do with the war. (No big deal)
So is "negotiating" with the enemy and bringing home their terms to propagandize for them. (Youthful exhuberance - maybe he really did think he could make a difference.)
And the SSC on POW/MIA affairs. And the fact that his cousin profited greatly from the normalization of relations with Vietnam. And that Kerry himself declared holdings in Southeast Asian companies in his Senate Financial Disclosures. (Quid pro quo - no big deal, eh?)
And the fraud known as WSI. (So they didn't vet the witnesses properly - they were new at the game.)
And his ever-changing stance on his medals and ribbons. Ashamed of them, proud of them, centerpiece of a campaign.... just depending on the political winds of the time. (That's politics.)
Voting to send the troops to war, then voting to NOT fund them... then being PROUD of that vote and calling himself an anti-war candidate when it looked like that was working for Dean. (Again, just political posturing.)
Standing in the way of more funding for the CIA at every opportunity and then protesting that they didn't protect us. (More politics and grandstanding.)
None of it is in itself a deal-breaker.
It's only when you put all the pieces all together and connect the dots.
It sounds like John O'Neill and the Swift boats team may have done just that with this book.
And judging by the sales, it looks like there's one heck of a lot of interest in hearing what the Swifties have to say.
No wonder the Kerry camp is throwing such a hissy fit.
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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lrb111
Captain
Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 508
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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However I know of no veteran since Benedict Arnold to have a career so full of questionable acts>>>>>>
But Benedict Arnold did leave the country. In hindsight, that now seems honorable over Kerry...
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said Democratic Chairman Terry McAuliffe. "It is inexcusable to mock service and sacrifice."
well, when even the DNC can see it,,,,, then kerry is toast. |
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Bill Levinson
Seaman
Joined: 25 Jul 2004
Posts: 184
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Navy_Navy_Navy wrote: |
TWO of the wounds self-inflicted?
NO hospitalization? That's news to me, too. |
Again, I wouldn't be too quick to jump on this.
http://www.purpleheart.org/Awd_of_PH.htm
"Individuals wounded or killed as a result of "friendly fire" in the "heat of battle" will be awarded the Purple Heart as long as the "friendly" projectile or agent was released with the full intent of inflicting damage or destroying enemy troops or equipment."
So if Kerry injured himself with a weapon as described above, his self-inflicted injury would be eligible.
Listed as INELIGIBLE are "(h) Self-inflicted wounds, EXCEPT WHEN IN THE HEAT OF BATTLE, and not involving gross negligence." This would make a self-inflicted wound IN the heat of battle eligible. Had Albert Gore shot himself with the M-16 whose barrel seemed to be pointed at his own head in a photo (don't they teach firearm safety in Basic?), however, that wound would not have been eligible.
As for the severity of the injury, "A physical lesion is not required, however, the wound for which the award is made must have required treatment by a medical officer and records of medical treatment for wounds or injuries received in action must have been made a matter of official record."
Now here is where Kerry's supporters could use our arguments against us. "The fact that the proposed recipient was participating in direct or indirect combat operations is a necessary prerequisite, but is not sole justification for award." From what I have seen in talk.politics.republicans, they would say, "Well, at least Kerry was in a combat zone while Bush was flying airplanes and going AWOL in Texas." (Conveniently leaving out, of course, that the single-engine jets in question occasionally killed their pilots and that the AWOL story is an urban myth, but we know the Left to be without honor.)
_________________
--Bill
http://www.stentorian.com/politics/kerry Growing dossier on John Kerry's lack of character, ethics, and integrity. Free leaflets, Election 2004 |
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waltjones
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 392
Location: 'bout 40 miles north of Seattle
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:32 pm Post subject: Be careful ... |
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DougReese said:
Bill, I disagree. I think they should repeat the old news, such as the three PHs required no hospitilization and no (or little) time off.
I also think they should make a big deal, a huge deal of the fact that they think Kerry's medals weren't deserved.
I am sure their private investigator came up with all kinds of dirt on Kerry.
I am just as sure the general public will accept this information as honest and forthright, and vote accordingly.
Gee, Doug, I wonder why you would want that? Is it to deflect attention away from the questions about Kerry that you refuse to answer in this forum? I have started to question your veracity lately. Why? Because you both quote and support liars. I am really looking forward to my copy of Unfit For Command; I think the title says it all! Way to go, Swift Boat Vets!!!
Semper Fi!
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Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor. |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:45 pm Post subject: Re: Don't attack Kerry's medals |
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| The bandit wrote: | | DougReese wrote: | | Bill, I disagree. I think they should repeat the old news, such as the three PHs required no hospitilization and no (or little) time off. |
What OLD news is that? What is coming forward on Kerry has never before been made public. People get fired all the time for lying about their background. If you are going to get operated on wouldn't you want to be assured the doctor recieved his degree through years of education and not droped out of school first 4 months and just printed his own degree? |
The old news is what I said it was, an example being -- the three PHs requiring no hospitilization or time off.
A few replies back, someone said it was news to them. But it has been mentioned by Kerry, and it has been mentioned again and again and again by others.
As for the other stuff, well, we'll see what their private investigator was able to uncover.
Doug |
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Bill Levinson
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Joined: 25 Jul 2004
Posts: 184
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:03 pm Post subject: Beat Kerry-- THEN argue about his medals |
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| Uisguex Jack wrote: | Bill Levinson, I understand where you are coming from, I know of no veteran who relishes the thought of questioning any fellow vets military record more specifically his decorations.
However I know of no veteran since Benedict Arnold to have a career so full of questionable acts, and in this case extraordinary dubious ratio of decorations to time served and days in infirmary. |
Benedict Arnold is an important example. He actually served quite honorably and heroically until he betrayed his country. If one wanted to criticize Benedict Arnold and, for example, keep him from getting elected, one would emphasize the fact that he betrayed his country as opposed to trying to find faults with his military service.
If one wanted to attack Adolf Hitler, one would not try to argue over whether he deserved the Iron Cross he earned in World War I. One would attack the things he did during the 1930s and 1940s.
| Uisguex Jack wrote: | These decorations were rejected by Kerry in the most disgusting of acts in the 70's. Today they hang on his Senate office wall. If he is proud of them today, what about the POW's yesterday when he disposed of these decorations. What about those POW's?
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THIS is a MUCH stronger argument than over whether he deserved the medals themselves. We can use the fact that he pretended to throw the medals away in the early 1970s but is now trotting them out to portray himself as a war hero to paint a picture of him as a phony and a fraud who stands for nothing whatsoever. (Add the story of his rescue of his daughter's drowning hamster; I don't think the hamster could have survived under water long enough for this to have happened.)
We can and should also point to the fact that he knifed his fellow veterans in the back with his "Winter Soldier" defamations, and admitted to committing war crimes himself. We can paint him as "America's Kurt Waldheim" (noting Austria's embarrassment when it was discovered that its President had been a Nazi or cooperated with Nazis) and "Genghis John," noting his statement that fellow vets had behaved like Genghis Khan. Maybe I should change the torch in the picture at http://www.stentorian.com/politics/genghis.html to the Zippo lighter with which Genghis John actually burned a village.
Another post in this thread brings up the following excellent points, all FAR stronger than questions about Kerry's decorations:
(1) Along with the facts about meeting with and aiding/abetting the enemy.
"Aiding and abetting the enemy" sounds like treason to me.
(2) Along with the facts about false accusations of widespread atrocities.
See above.
(3) Along with the facts about the tributes by the enemy for the above.
This is very damaging to Kerry.
-------------------------------------------
Someone else pointed out that it is a matter of honor to question Kerry's medals. This can and should be done AFTER he is kept from becoming Commander-in-Chief of the more than a million soldiers, sailors, and airmen whom he is "unfit to command." This means we should use our strongest arguments to defeat him and follow up with the weaker ones after he is defeated.
I cite my own experiences in dealing with the Million Mom March, about which I learned in March of 2000. The Million Mom March had a no-debate policy and tried to keep people from arguing against gun controls on its publicly-accessible Internet forums.
I discovered quickly that the Million Mom March was misrepresenting and distorting data, such as its claim that firearm misuse kills 13 children a day. (They included legal adults, 18-19, in the figure; an age group in which violent crime is very high.) I began to argue that the MMM was lying to its own marchers and financial contributors. This was somewhat effective but not decisive.
Then I found that the 501(c)(3) tax-exempt MMM was touting Congressional candidates on its Web pages (a misuse of tax exempt money). I began to publicize this and I also sent the information to pro-Second Amendment columnist Jill Labbe, who published a column about this across the country.
Within a couple of weeks, one could actually SEE the Million Mom March begin to crumple up like a house of cards. When I used this information on publicly-accessible MMM discussion forums, the forums were either closed or their participants stopped participating-- probably walked away in disgust. It is very rare that one sees such visible results from a political argument, especially with the other side's hard-core supporters.
If I had (like thousands of other Second Amendment supporters and even the NRA) tried to argue gun control with the MMM, this would not have happened. We would have argued back and forth until Election Day, and perhaps a still-viable MMM would have given Gore those few hundred votes he needed in Florida. By attacking something which the MMM could not possibly defend, however, a few people succeeded in destroying an organization thousands of times as big as themselves in terms of financial resources and personnel, and an organization that enjoyed the active support of many U.S. Senators like Dianne Feinstein and Barbara Mikulski.
The bottom line here is that the NRA, with its 3-4 million members and multimillion dollar budget, could do no more than engage in indecisive political "trench warfare" with the Million Mom March. A few individuals succeeded, while expending no more than a few hundred dollars, in DESTROYING the Million Mom March with effective strategies and tactics. Even the MMM's prominent friends like Hillary Clinton and Dianne Feinstein were unable to rescue it from this disaster!!!
We must apply the same principle to Kerry. Hit him on his throwing his medals over the fence but really keeping them. Hit him on his defamation of his fellow veterans when he returned from Vietnam, and on the war crimes he says he committed in Vietnam. Note his association with proven racists and anti-Semites, along with Michael Moore (who is advocating the defeat of our Armed Forces in Iraq). There is NOTHING his supporters can do to defend him against these things and, if we emphasize them as opposed to the medals themselves, they will cost him the election.
_________________
--Bill
http://www.stentorian.com/politics/kerry Growing dossier on John Kerry's lack of character, ethics, and integrity. Free leaflets, Election 2004 |
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waltjones
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Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 392
Location: 'bout 40 miles north of Seattle
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:36 pm Post subject: Logic |
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Bill, your logic and common sense on these issues is very solid, but the medals issue - although politically weak - has great emotional effects on veterans (especially combat veterans). We should listen to what Doug said - people like him would love to see Kerry attacked endlessly for his weak PHs. Why? Because the general public is uncomfortable with a combat veteran being attacked regarding the details of his decorations. So, on one hand, I see your point. On the other hand, there's plenty of room - and lots of qualified people - to discuss, and yes, criticize the rather questionable details of Kerry's awards right here in this forum.
Note that, if you want to have a powerful political effect on the general voting public with very little effort, we need only ensure that Kerry's mockery of Iwo Jima is seen by as many people as possible, so in that spirit .......
Semper Fi!
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Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor. |
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JN173
Commander
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 341
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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I believe Kerry vulnerable from 3 points of view. His service in Nam. His slander of us after he cut and ran. His political record( or lack there of) during the last 25 years.
For most of my tour (okay for you pickie ones I was only there 11 3/4 months  ) I was a mortar FO. It wasn't my job to use my M-16 to stop a charge. I provided indirect fire support to do so. My point? Each one of us needs to use the weapon we are most proficient with. I'll leave it to the Swifties to attack his record in country. The Republicans to attack his politcal record. I will preach against Kerry and the VVAW's lies  every chance I get!
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A Grunt
2/503 173rd Airborne Brigade
RVN '65-'66 |
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waltjones
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 392
Location: 'bout 40 miles north of Seattle
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Grunt, sounds like a good plan to me! Semper Fi!
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Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor. |
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carpro
Admin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 1176
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 6:55 pm Post subject: Re: Don't attack Kerry's medals |
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| DougReese wrote: |
I am sure their private investigator came up with all kinds of dirt on Kerry.
I am just as sure the general public will accept this information as honest and forthright, and vote accordingly.
Doug |
I don't know why the private investigator thing is such a big deal?
You act like there are no investigators working for the Kerry campaign. You don't really believe that , do you?
Whatever any of us want the book to say doesn't matter at this point. It's already done.
Dirt? ON Kerry? Well, if there is, at least it will be publicised by men who served in the same unit on or about the same time as Kerry and have some knowledge of what they are talking about.
Kerry has Michael Moore. 
Seems like a fair trade off to me. I'll take the Swiftvets, Doug, and give you Moore and throw in Wilson and Clark to give your side some credibility.
Deal?
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"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service." |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 8:02 pm Post subject: Re: Don't attack Kerry's medals |
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| carpro wrote: | | DougReese wrote: |
I am sure their private investigator came up with all kinds of dirt on Kerry.
I am just as sure the general public will accept this information as honest and forthright, and vote accordingly.
Doug |
I don't know why the private investigator thing is such a big deal?
You act like there are no investigators working for the Kerry campaign. You don't really believe that , do you?
Whatever any of us want the book to say doesn't matter at this point. It's already done.
Dirt? ON Kerry? Well, if there is, at least it will be publicised by men who served in the same unit on or about the same time as Kerry and have some knowledge of what they are talking about.
Kerry has Michael Moore.
Seems like a fair trade off to me. I'll take the Swiftvets, Doug, and give you Moore and throw in Wilson and Clark to give your side some credibility.
Deal? |
Add Bill O'Reilly and Rita Cosby and you've got a deal 
I don't know as I'd say the P.I. the SBVT/O'Neill hired is a big deal, or for that matter did I know what to make of it back when I became aware of it. It appears the book will answer my questions about that.
As for the Kerry campaign hiring investigators, well, I wouldn't know about that. I can state that none have called me. Nor has anyone, at least that I am aware of, pointed out any P.I.s who have been nosing around for Kerry.
Doug |
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Doc Jerry
Commander
Joined: 28 May 2004
Posts: 339
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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Sean Hannity also played the new Swift Boat Vet ad in audio. It's awesome. If you have not heard it yet, you guys are in for a major treat.
Go Air Force!!! Medics, we're there when you need us. |
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Bill Levinson
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Joined: 25 Jul 2004
Posts: 184
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 8:36 pm Post subject: re: Kerry, "When a brother betrays, my heart is heavy.& |
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| waltjones wrote: |
Note that, if you want to have a powerful political effect on the general voting public with very little effort, we need only ensure that Kerry's mockery of Iwo Jima is seen by as many people as possible, so in that spirit .......
Semper Fi! |
Am I safe in assuming that, as Kerry is running for office and this cover is a subject of public debate, I can post this picture at http://www.stentorian.com/politics/kerry/? It's too bad the book itself is not available-- I'd LOVE to see what kind of garbage Kerry was spewing in it. The cheapest copies on the Advanced Book Exchange, though, seem to be $500 to $1000.
I thought of a great line to use when Kerry talks of his "band of brothers" in Vietnam (most of whom seem to have disowned him). There is a scene in Jerzy Hoffman's "With Fire and Sword" (Polish, English subtitles) in which the Cossack hetman Bogdan Chmielnicki accuses two atamans (chieftains) of selling out to the Poles. The Cossacks are calling the men brothers but Chmielnicki interrupts, "Yes but when a brother betrays, my heart is heavy." In this case the men were probably innocent but this might be a good line to insert when Kerry speaks of his "band of brothers."
_________________
--Bill
http://www.stentorian.com/politics/kerry Growing dossier on John Kerry's lack of character, ethics, and integrity. Free leaflets, Election 2004 |
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carpro
Admin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 1176
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 8:42 pm Post subject: Re: Don't attack Kerry's medals |
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| DougReese wrote: | | carpro wrote: | | DougReese wrote: |
I am sure their private investigator came up with all kinds of dirt on Kerry.
Doug |
Kerry has Michael Moore.
Seems like a fair trade off to me. I'll take the Swiftvets, Doug, and give you Moore and throw in Wilson and Clark to give your side some credibility.
Deal? |
Add Bill O'Reilly and Rita Cosby and you've got a deal
As for the Kerry campaign hiring investigators, well, I wouldn't know about that. I can state that none have called me. Nor has anyone, at least that I am aware of, pointed out any P.I.s who have been nosing around for Kerry.
Doug |
O'Reilly is tough to let go , but OK. 
I don't even know who Cosby is. 
You may be right about Kerry not having any investigators but Bush's life has been under a microscope by hundreds of wannabe Woodard and Bernsteins for about 5 years. Kerry's camp would and has used anything they come up with. Hasn't been much.
Lets call it even in the investigative department and wait for the book. Sounds like it may surprise us both.
_________________
"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service." |
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Uisguex Jack
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 613
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| Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2004 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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Bill Levinson....... I had second thoughts about mentioning Benedict Arnold as his career prior to treason was one of the most stellar of the revolution.
The thing is more people know who he was than they do Aldrich Ames, if you know what I mean. |
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