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Is it possible that Wilson set up the fraud papers on Niger?
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wonhyo
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:48 pm    Post subject: Is it possible that Wilson set up the fraud papers on Niger? Reply with quote

I think the FBI is still investigating the source of the fraudelent papers on Niger yellow cake. if i remember right Wilson knew they were fake without ever seeing them? Do you think Fitzgerald is looking at that? It's possible with the hatred that some in the CIA have for this president that they would set this up?
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joeshero
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I doubt that Fitzgerald is looking at that. The whole thing is absolutely bizarre. A man walked down to the US embassy and handed in top secret documents,...and lo and behold, they were forgeries.

What is astonishingly stupid, in my view, is the way the White House handled these Wilsons. The Wilsons are certainly not single players but are just players among other dangerous and wicked ones who are trying to topple Bush by any means.
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SBD
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The French are the source of the fake documents and they passed them on to the Italians with the expectation of proving them to be false and putting egg on Bush and Blair's faces. However, there is a story that says the documents came from a diplomat. Could Joe have actually delivered the documents while on his trip?? Was his trip to deliver the forged documents to make the president look bad and helped further by the CIA not removing that famous line from the State of the Union Speech. Interesting.... Exclamation

France controls the yellowcake in Niger and also made the claim initially that they had reason to believe Saddam was trying to buy it from Niger officials. Apparently some of these documents were invoices from the purchase, obviously fake, but they were mixed in with legitimate documents as well. An Iraqi delegation did approach the Niger government wanting to set up a meeting to discuss the possibility of becoming trading partners. This is even in Joe Wilson's report, but his Editorial piece did not mention this, it only mentions that the reports of Iraq attempting to purchase Yellowcake from Niger could not be verified and were likely false. The absolute most outrageous part of this whole thing is that the only export Niger produces that Iraq could want is the Uranium. They are and were at the time of this incident, starving and desperate according to the , get this the "CIA Factbook". I can't even say that with a straight face!! Very Happy Very Happy

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ng.html

Quote:
Niger is a poor, landlocked Sub-Saharan nation, whose economy centers on subsistence agriculture, animal husbandry, and reexport trade, and increasingly less on uranium, because of declining world demand. The 50% devaluation of the West African franc in January 1994 boosted exports of livestock, cowpeas, onions, and the products of Niger's small cotton industry. The government relies on bilateral and multilateral aid - which was suspended following the April 1999 coup d'etat - for operating expenses and public investment. In 2000-01, the World Bank approved a structural adjustment loan of $105 million to help support fiscal reforms. However, reforms could prove difficult given the government's bleak financial situation. The IMF approved a $73 million poverty reduction and growth facility for Niger in 2000 and announced $115 million in debt relief under the Heavily Indebted Poor Countries (HIPC) initiative. Further disbursements of aid occurred in 2002. Future growth may be sustained by exploitation of oil, gold, coal, and other mineral resources.


Let's see, Iraq doesn't need oil, gold, coal, but they do need Uranium and Niger has plenty of it with declining legitimate sales and all. This whole scam is a worldwide affair. I only hope Fitzgerald is as good as he thinks he is and takes this internationally.

Here is the France story.
Quote:

Italy blames France for Niger uranium claim
By Bruce Johnston in Brussels and Kim Willsher in Paris
(Filed: 05/09/2004)

A row has broken out between France and Italy over whose intelligence service is to blame for the Niger uranium controversy, which led to Britain and America claiming wrongly that Saddam Hussein was trying to buy material for nuclear bombs.



Italian diplomats say that France was behind forged documents which at first appeared to prove that Iraq was seeking "yellow-cake" uranium in Niger - evidence used by Britain and America to promote the case for last year's Gulf war.

They say that France's intelligence services used an Italian-born middle-man to circulate a mixture of genuine and bogus documents to "trap" the two leading proponents of war with Saddam into making unsupportable claims.

They have passed to The Sunday Telegraph a photograph which they claim shows the Italian go-between, sometimes known as "Giacomo" - who cannot be identified for legal reasons - meeting a senior French intelligence officer based in Brussels. "The French hoped that the bulk of the documents would be exposed as false, since many of them obviously were," an Italian official said.

"Their aim was to make the allies look ridiculous in order to undermine their case for war."

According to an account given to The Sunday Telegraph, France was driven by "a cold desire to protect their privileged, dominant trading relationship with Saddam, which in the case of war would have been at risk".

The allegation, which has infuriated French officials, follows reports last month that "Giacomo" claimed to have been unwittingly used by Sismi, Italy's foreign intelligence service, to circulate the false documents.

The papers found their way to the CIA and to MI6, and in September 2002 Tony Blair accused Saddam of seeking "significant quantities" of uranium from an undisclosed African country - in fact, Niger. President George W Bush made a similar claim in his State of the Union address to Congress four months later, using information passed to him by MI6.

The International Atomic Energy Agency expressed doubts over the documents' authenticity, however, and in March 2003 declared them false.

The suggestion that Italy, driven by its government's support for America, had forged the documents to help to justify the war in Iraq, has caused a furore and has now led to the revelation of new information about "Giacomo".

The Sunday Telegraph has been told that the man draws a monthly salary of €4,000 (£2,715) from the DGSE - the French equivalent of MI6 - for which he is said to have worked for the past five years.

He had an expense account and received bonuses in return for carrying out orders allegedly given him by the head of the French services' operations in Belgium.

"Giacomo" could not be reached for comment on the claims last week at either his home in Formello, a suburb on the northern edge of Rome, or at his second home in Luxembourg.

He is said to be wanted for questioning over the Niger affair by Italian investigating magistrates, and is believed to be in the United States.

"Giacomo" was allegedly first engaged by the French secret service to investigate genuine fears of illicit trafficking in uranium from Niger. He collected a dossier of documents - some real, some forged by a diplomat - by offering large sums of money to Niger officials.

American intelligence officials were further misled over Saddam's supposed attempt to buy uranium when France - which effectively controls mining in Niger - told Washington that it had reason to believe that Iraq was trying to do so. "Only later did Paris inform Washington that its belief had been based on the same documents that had tricked the Americans and the British," an Italian diplomat said.

"This was la grande trappola [the big trap]. The Americans were now convinced by the French that Saddam really was trying to buy uranium. They thought the French must be right, since not even a gram of uranium in Niger could be shifted without their knowledge."

British officials still say that the claim about Iraqi uranium purchases rested on a second source, not just the now-discredited documents. Intelligence officials from some other Western countries now believe, however, that the second source was also France - part of a "sinister trap" for Mr Blair.

French intelligence was asked by The Sunday Telegraph for a public comment on the allegations against it, but has yet to give one.


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dcornutt
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

my understanding is...that at the time J Wilson was sent to Niger, CIA did not even possess the documents. They didn't have them until several months "after" Wilson came back.

That is the reason the Intel committe was questioning Wilson as to how he could have known about or seen documents, and be commenting on their "authenticity" when they had yet to be in US hands?

There were "other" sources of information about this..not just docs. And it's also interesting to note the diversion in reporting on this by Wilson and others..as indicating that he was sent to "Verify" such documents or a "sale".

According to intel committee report and testimony...it was "assumed" by teh CIA and others that even if some such sale had taken place that those invovled would lie about it if asked about it. What they sent Wilson to ask were "general" questions..like..have "any" foreign countries approached you etc. According to reports and testimony....CIA confirmed that the IRaqi's "DID" in fact approach Nigerian officals and requested a meeting. Nigerian offfical assumed it was over yellowcake. (since that's really the only possible thing they could be interested in from Niger). He met with them and told them such business arrangments would not be possible. (ie..no sale).

Now, the CIA "knew" that had such a sale taken place...nobody would own up to it. What they were looking to confirm was simply the previous reporting they had..that such a "MEETING" took place..and whether or not yellowcake was discussed in some manner. The answer to that was "YES" it had. Most everyone knew that there was no way possible to know whether any illicit sale had happened or not..and that the chances for that..would be remote. What they were looking to confirm was evidnence that saddam was still out there probing on behalf of his "nuke" program (which he was).

The presidents speeches...never said...Saddam has aquired yellowcake from niger. It said foreign sources reveal that Saddam was "looking" to aquire or seeking to aquire resources for his nuke program (ie..yellowcake). Nor did he name "Niger" in this. (as there were other sources to confirm that Iraqi's were out and about speaking wtih people trying to develop relationships)

I continue to be struck today why these things still go on unconfronted. And it all leads back to the CIA. It was the CIA that made the decisions of "how" to get more information about what they "already" had concerning yellowcake. It was Wilson's wife's dept tasked with that. It was V Plame that suggested Wilson. The decision to "not" put him under wraps (security aggreement) and how he was to be breifed etc...etc..was all done internally. According to intel committee..wilson's actual report (that nobody has actually seen btw), did not confirm nor deny anything in regards to what they already knew. He got absolutely slammed on this.

The charges Wilson himself made...are why the question came up ..."who sent this guy" and how did he get picked?
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GM Strong
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I forget the quantity, but I think it was 500 tons of yellow cake ore was found in Iraq. OK, somebody explain that, Mr. Wilson. French Intelligence(Huh?), hello???
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dcornutt
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to Duelfer report..there was LOTS of wicked stuff sitting around Iraq that had been tagged by the UN over the years and never removed. Part of what they did in inspecting Iraq was to monitor the status of those sites (the seals and tags, etc).

I don't recall if the yellowcake you speak of was part of these old finds that had been sitting in IRaq prior to the war or not.
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GM Strong
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dcornutt wrote:


I don't recall if the yellowcake you speak of was part of these old finds that had been sitting in IRaq prior to the war or not.


Now, how in the name of logic would any yellow cake have been sitting there after the Action. Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Think about it. It was there, Yes-No. DUHH!!! Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes It was there prior any way you look at it. Where did it come from??
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joeshero
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And how much the taxpayers' money that has been wasted on this ridiculous investigation?
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wonhyo
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 6:42 am    Post subject: why wouldn't Fitzgerald be looking at this? Reply with quote

If Fitzgerald is trying to find out the who, what ,where and why, wouldn't he go to the beginning? the whole thing started with V Plame and her CIA friends asking her husband to go to Niger, because he has friends there, KNOWS the language,FRENCH. there was no one in the administration that asked for anyone to go to Niger, this was clearly a set up. I just hope that the FBI and Goss at the CIA is looking into this. I don't trust what I keep hearing about the CIA, being so willing to let terrorists get away with the horrible things they have done, and I feel that it is because they do not want to ruffle any feathers. Just look at what is happening with Able Danger. Thanks for your wonderful insights.
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GM Strong
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You almost have to wonder about anyplace where French is spoken and those who speak French these days.

I defer to Mark Twain for other opinions. He had some similar takes.
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dcornutt
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GM Strong wrote:

Where did it come from??


Al Qaim: Production of yellow cake (refined uranium ore) from 1984 to 1990. All of the yellow cake used by nuclear program allegedly came from this site. Ore was supplied to the facility by both Iraqi and foreign sources. Located 380 km WNW of Baghdad.

Iraq, prior to 90, actually had a refining/production facility for producing yellowcake from ore. The "ore" was both local and foreign sources. There were several foreign countries (mostly German, French, Russians) who helped Saddam build out his nuke capability. The main reactor was bombed by Israel in early 80s.

There were stockpiles of yellowcake in Iraq that were tagged and monitored by UN since the end of Gulf1.

I'm really glad for this dicussion too. I want to reiiterate a few points that is my understanding from reading Iraqi Intel report, Duelfer report:

Wilsons trip was a) deicded internally by the CIA and specifically V. Plames dept. where Plame herself suggested his name b) that the nature of the trip was to try and get some cooberating evidence on "other" reporting that they had (which they did not tell Wilson about) that concerned a meeting between Iraqi officials and highly placed Nigerian officals in a certain time period.
c) the fact that this meeting "did" take place was reflected in the Iraq Intelligence Committee report..as the result of reviewing CIA and other intelligence agency documents as well as testimony.

Wilson's "strawman" argument doesn't even mention this fact. Instead, he makes the strawman..that Bush and WH, were suggesting that they had confirmed that such a "sale" took place when in fact...they knew that it had not been confirmed, probably never would be possible to do so and were only seeking to add more clarity to reporting that they had. Wilson's original rip into this...also included statements that Chenny himself had something to do with his mission...AND that his findings that there was nothing to this..were reported directly back to the WH. Therefore: the WH was lieing and twisting intelligence that they knew in fact was false..because "he" Wilson told them so.

That little diddy...remains today as the basis of argument in this in the media and elsewhere. It is also the basis of Wilson's case..that he was "smeared" ..and his wife outed...because the WH had been exposed in a "lie" by him. (ie..as to motive).

I'm wondering..."how" it could be illegal to rebutt such a BS claim? It was WILSON who said Chenny sent him. IT was Wilson who claimed to have knowledge of forged documents that the CIA had...and that this was communicated to the WH. IT was wilson who characterized his mission as as an intelligence analysist...to make a determination on the entire issue or find a result that Chenny himself was seeking.

As you watch this absurd tale unfold....the first question is...what idiot picked THIS guy and WHY was he not signed to a secrecy agreement?

Well...here's what we know:

Chenny's office asks for more clarification on reporting about Saddam seeking yellowcake. That goes through George T....to the CIA. It goes to V. Plames division. And the mission from Tennent was...come up with some ideas about how we can gain some more insight into this.

There is argument within the CIA over whether sending someone to ask questions would add anything to what they already knew. V. Plame suggests her husband..because of his former contacts.

Wilson is not signed to any security/confidential agreement. He is given temporary clearance for his briefing. (note: I believe this is because they didn't "tell" Wilson anything that needed such clearance/security/secrecy). According to testimony from people who briefed Wilson at his home...they didn't want to taint Wilson with too much info about what they were looking for. They briefed him in "general" terms...and gave him a list of talking points and questions..which were all general and wide in scope. The CIA testimony to the Intel committee also suggests that this was common procedure..when using such outside assets to ask questions..etc. (you don't tell them what you are looking for, and you don't give them any more info than they need..because they may try to manipulate results or form conclusions).

Wilson goes, meets wtih embassy officials there...and meets with some nigerian former officals..etc. Nigerian officals confirm to Wilson that both the Iranians and Iraqi's had approached them for meetings. The Nigerians assumed the Iraqi's wanted to discuss yellowcake. Met with them...but told them up front such a sale would be impossible. (note: both Iranians and Iraqis met with them. This proves the CIA reporting that they gave Wilson nothing but a list of general questions..to ask...ie..have you been approached by any foreign govs..inquiring about yellowcake?). It was not specific to Iraq nor any forged documents concerning Iraq.

Wilson is debriefed at the Embassy in Niger and returns.

It is determined by Intelligence community that the trip did not shed any new light on anything. Some feel that it actually was more confirmation that such a meeting "did" take place that added to the possiblity that a transaction occurred. Others feel it simply wasn't conclusive enough to add anything further to what they already knew. The CIA and other intelligence divisions STILL are ok..with the statement by the President that Iraq "sought" yellowcake in AFrica. They continue to approve and clear this language and do not strike it from speeches, etc.

Right before Wilson goes public..the CIA starts backtracking..and coverying it's arse. I believe the timeframe shows that this was the time that began. There was always disagreement between different Intelligence divisions..etc. I think when Wilson went public...he did so at the urging of a certain element within the CIA that disagreed with Tenent and agreed with other intelligence divisions that did not support the reporting tenent was giving the WH. And because Wilson was not signed to any secrecy agreement he could be the mouthpiece for that discension in the ranks pushed and fed by his wife. I believe "this" is where Wilson got the information about the "documents" (his wife).

The "forged" documents..did not even arrive in US hands or CIA until months AFTER Wilson went public. This also has been absent from MSM reporting. The Iraqi Intel commission clearly...sets Wilson on his ear on this point. How could Wilson ahve been proving or disproving documents he had never seen? He suggested that he must have seen it somewhere in the media and was mistaken.

Libby is FURIOUS over Wilson's statements. He pushes to start rebutting his accusations right away. The WH makes him standdown. They said..let Wilson fall on his own..it's obviously not true..and it will take care of itself. It grows. MOONBATS feed on it. Libby talks to reporters about it.
He talks to Rove about it. Rove talks to reporters about it. The big charge early on by Wilson was that VP Chenny had authorized and sent Wilson on this trip to confirm or not..the report that such a sale had occured. And that Wilson reported back directly to the WH..that it in fact had "not" happened. And that the WH, Chenny in particular, continued to say that it had even though they "knew" (because Wilson himself reported so) that it wasn't true.

The WH, believed that it would take care of itself. That Wilson would trip over his own lies....which he did. The problem was...the media just picked him back up, dusted him off..rearranged a few facts..and kept on going. The Moonbats were feeeding on it like sugar water..and they tied it all in to the Bush lied, 1000s died..campaign which only grew the longer time passed that no large WMD stockpiles were found in Iraq etc. The WH thought at "that" point..that once the commission report came out...they would be vindicated. Nope. Even though the commission report clearly "does" in fact...knock Wilson off his strawman and clearly shows the CIA's role in this as well as the fact that Bush's "16 words) were cleared over and over again...these facts never made it to any majjor news org that I know of..and still has not today. It simply wasn't reported in any depth and clarity.

The only thing the media used in initial reporting was the "summary" findings which didn't go into "near" enough detail on this issue. If you read the entire chapter devoted to Yellowcake and pages on Wilson himself...the picture is a lot more clear. But, news orgs..being in a hurry to get it out...appear to have never read it (or purposefully didn't include it). They continue today...to ciruclate the original reporting citing Wilson's claims without the first passing note that Wilson himself retracted much of that while under oath..only to repeat them again...in public appearances afterwards.

People "believe" today...that VP chenny himself sent Wilson on a personal mission to find out if the documents were forged. They still report it this way in the news. I saw a MSNBC "analyst" aruging this very point with Tucker C just the other night. And while there have been "some" people who've actually taken the time to look some of this stuff up....their articles...have been dismissed as partisan rewritting of history..(given that common belief is now...the lies that Wilson told).

My great hope would be in this...that Wilson's claims would finally be debunked. But, it looks like...that's not going to happen. They will indict Rove or Libby...or both. And Wilson's lies will continue to go forward. I'm so frustrated with this.

Peter Goss "did" clean some house as soon as he got in. We saw some of them on TV right after that hawking their books. And I have to say..they were OBVIOUSLY left bent loony kook-aide drinkers...and spouted the same sort of malarky you could get off the web conspiricy or communist propeganda sites!! Brilliant.

Anyway...Goss evidenently..has "stopped" now. He's protecting what's left of the CIA..and will not issue any "blame" report or hold anyone there repsonsible for failings as the result of his internal review. Why ..I don't know. I would assume it's because he's already cleaned out the moon bats out of sensitive positions. They've either been fired, relocated or forced out.

Thanks again for this discussion.
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GM Strong
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Guy. The moonbats have been saying Saddam did not even have the yellow cake. Only a few places to get it. Porter Goss is cleaning house and much needed. What a botched up mess.
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dcornutt
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to clarify one point in this in regards to above:
It is apparent, at least at this point, that Libby and Rove began speaking privately and with reporters about Wilson and his role in this...BEFORE Wilson went public with his allegations.

I believe that the decision to "not" sign Wilson to a secrecy agreement was a crucial piece in this. It meant he could be a mouthpiece for decension within the CIA etc...via his wife V Plame..who could leak the info to him to go public with. I in fact believe that's how he "mispoke" about knowing about forged documents months before they were ever in US hands. (his wife). I believe his wife shared her feelings and discesnsion within intelligence commmunity with Joe before he ever went on this trip. I believe the record at the Iraqi's intel commission reflects that V. Plame was one of those people who disagreed with reporting about this...in the way she made statements (ie...they have this "crazy reporting"..etc). That "crazy reporting" came from within the CIA.

I think..that V. Plame...used her husband..to be the mouthpiece for those within the intel community...who were those who disagreed with analysis on the issue all along and who disagreed with the WH about the war in Iraq..and sought to undermind it and/or the WH along with it.

My understanding on that point is..that this is because the information that was actually shared with Wilson...was NOT anything remotely as he claims to have been privy to. That's why I believe his wife had been and has been feeding him all along. Had Wilson shared or leaked what he was briefed on only...would not have been revelational at all in any way.

Again...it's Wilson's misrepresenation of his own role in this...that has fuled this. And because he wasn't signed to a secrecy agreement over what he was "actually" briefed on and tasked to do....he was free to make up whatever he wanted and release it as "intelligence". Not only intel information...but that HE was the final "analysis" on the matter. That he was sent to analyze and make the final call on this...and that his findings were "ignored" ..even "twisted" by the WH.
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dcornutt
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The purpose of the moonbats saying that there never was any such thing in Iraq...is because it's important to their belief that Saddam was a "victim" of US imperilist aggression. There "were" CIA analysist who believe this..who are hawking their books now that they've been tossed out.

It's also important to realize..that there always "were" and have been analysist who disagree. That's not unusual nor out of place. But, this was different. One guy..who left as soon as goss got in...wrote a book. He disagreed about going into Afghanistan!!

The moonbats hold such people up...as an example..that there was such "truth" within the CIA and was ignored...which to them is more proof that Bush "lied" about what he was being told by the CIA.

The truth is...there is always disagreement within intelligence community over any given analysis. There were some problems with this...within the CIA...and mistakes made by the CIA over a long period of time (including through the Clinton years). That too was covered in minute detail in the Iraqi Intel commission report. Exactly how it happened...point by point and who did it.

The problem with intel on Iraq...stretches back a LONG way. There simply weren't any reliable sources. And very hard to get information. And LOTS of people who had interests in selling "wrong" information.
Much of that..was because of the nature of Saddam's regime itself..who continued even up to the day he was taken down..to lie, misdirect, etc..etc..layers upon layers of it.
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davman
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://americanthinker.com/comments.php?comments_id=3479

Niger document forger in pay of France

Russo Martino, the man behind the forged documents indicating Saddam had purchased uranium from Niger, which Joseph A. Wilson falsely claimed he had seen and warned the Administration about, has come forward and [ http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/19/wniger19.xml ]admitted that he did this in the pay of France to undermine the British and American justification for the war in Iraq:
The man, identified by an Italian news agency as Rocco Martino, was the subject of a Telegraph article earlier this month in which he was referred to by his intelligence codename, “Giacomo”.
His admission to investigating magistrates in Rome on Friday apparently confirms suggestions that – by commissioning “Giacomo” to procure and circulate documents – France was responsible for some of the information later used by Britain and the United States to promote the case for war with Iraq.
Italian diplomats have claimed that, by disseminating bogus documents stating that Iraq was trying to buy low-grade “yellowcake” uranium from Niger, France was trying to “set up” Britain and America in the hope that when the mistake was revealed it would undermine the case for war, which it wanted to prevent.
Italian judicial officials confirmed yesterday that Mr Martino had previously been sought for questioning by Rome. Investigating magistrates in the city have opened an inquiry into claims he made previously in the international press that Italy’s secret services had been behind the dissemination of false documents, to bolster the US case for war.
According to Ansa, the Italian news agency, which said privately that it had obtained its information from “judicial and other sources”, Mr Martino was questioned by an investigating magistrate, Franco Ionta, for two hours. Ansa said Mr Martino told the magistrate that Italy’s military intelligence, Sismi, had no role in the procuring or dissemination of the Niger documents.
Clarice Feldman 10 25 05
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