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kate
Admin
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 1891
Location: Upstate, New York
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 Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:12 am Post subject: |
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One problem with the State Department is that they weren't all speaking with the same voice. The official spokesperson, Sean McCormack, Assistant Secretary, Bureau of Public Affairs said this
State Department daily briefing
( about 2/3 down the page, go to link for full comments)
emphasis mine
<snip>
| Quote: | Our response is to say that while we certainly don't agree with, support, or in some cases, we condemn the views that are aired in public that are published in media organizations around the world, we, at the same time, defend the right of those individuals to express their views. For us, freedom of expression is at the core of our democracy and it is something that we have shed blood and treasure around the world to defend and we will continue to do so. That said, there are other aspects to democracy, our democracy -- democracies around the world -- and that is to promote understanding, to promote respect for minority rights, to try to appreciate the differences that may exist among us.
We believe, for example in our country, that people from different religious backgrounds, ethnic backgrounds, national backgrounds add to our strength as a country. And it is important to recognize and appreciate those differences. And it is also important to protect the rights of individuals and the media to express a point of view concerning various subjects. So while we share the offense that Muslims have taken at these images, we at the same time vigorously defend the right of individuals to express points of view. We may -- like I said, we may not agree with those points of view, we may condemn those points of view but we respect and emphasize the importance that those individuals have the right to express those points of view.
For example -- and on the particular cartoon that was published -- I know the Prime Minister of Denmark has talked about his, I know that the newspaper that originally printed it has apologized, so they have addressed this particular issue. So we would urge all parties to exercise the maximum degree of understanding, the maximum degree of tolerance when they talk about this issue. And we would urge dialogue, not violence. And that also those that might take offense at these images that have been published, when they see similar views or images that could be perceived as anti-Semitic or anti-Catholic, that they speak out with equal vigor against those
more...
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I B Squidly
Vice Admiral
Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 879
Location: Cactus Patch
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:39 am Post subject: |
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Kate,
I didn't follow all the none functioning links. What's presented is double-speak and gibberish.
| Quote: | | I disagree with what you say but I agree with your right to say it. |
-Voltaire
| Quote: | | Congess shall make no law respecting an estabishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or the press; or the right of people to peaceable assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. |
US Constitution, Amendement l.
We may argue some of this but if your free exercise of religion involves murder and mayhem we have a problem!
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"KILL ALL THE LAWYERS!"
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joeshero
Commander
Joined: 30 Aug 2004
Posts: 321
Location: Midwest
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 3:17 am Post subject: |
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When I tried to google Mohammed comics, it gave me an interesting site.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/comics/introduction.htm
It seems the Danes are not the first to draw Mohammed's pictures on cartoons.
Since Islam and Muslims cannot even stand to cartoons, I don't see how Islam can be compatible with democracy. Bush and his advisers must be too overly optimistic of his Middle-East policy. Or perhaps, it's better than nothing.
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All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. |
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LewWaters
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Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 6:49 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | We may argue some of this but if your free exercise of religion involves murder and mayhem we have a problem! |
Last I heard, no one is condoning murder and mayhem under the First Amendment. Neither are all Muslims taking part in this rioting.
My personal feelings are I don't really care for the cartoons any more than I care for depictions of Christ in urine. I also feel some Muslims are overreacting considering some of the cartoons and depictions I've seen in Al Jazeera.
That being said, I urge all to post with cooler heads. Discuss this as adults without calls for "nuke 'em" or total condemnations of religions. As difficult as it may be, remember there are currently thousands of Muslims dying fighting Terrorists and serving in the US Military fighting terrorism. |
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dcornutt
PO3
Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 267
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:10 am Post subject: |
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Um, I have a question
Is drawing a cartoon of the prophet torture? |
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SBD
Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2004
Posts: 1022
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Just out of Prison in Iran
On the bus, I was sitting next to a man. He opened his bag and took out a sandwich which was wrapped in newspaper. I was very hungry since I had not eaten regular food in almost six months. I did not want to look at his food but I just couldn't stand the smell of the kabobs. He turned around and asked me if I would like one. Without hesitating as we usually do in Iranian culture, I asked for one. Instead of one, he gave me two out of the three that he had with him. I asked for his name and he said that his name was Yacub. I had never heard that name before. So I asked, "What kind of name is this?" He said "Hebrew". "Ahh, so you are a Jew?" I asked back. "No, I am a Christian", he said. I had heard a lot of negative things about Christians in the Quran so I did not want to get into a conversation about Christianity. But something inside me made me wonder why he believed in it (Christianity)? I asked if he believed that Jesus was the son of God. The answer was yes. How could God have a wife? How could God have sex? He started explaining that to say that God had sex with Mary is the greatest sin. But rather Jesus is the son of God in a spiritual way and not like the way we are born. And we never say that God ever had a wife, we believe in a holy God. I wanted to stop the conversation and begin a different subject. I could not think of any other subject, so I asked him why he was going to Kurdistan. He said that a friend needed some help with something. I asked for his name he said Zana. That was my name. But I thought it was a different person. He opened his bag and very quietly gave me a Bible. He put it in my bag. He knew that if someone saw him with that book it could cost him his life. I asked what it was. He told me that I would find out later.
We got to Mahabad and I got off the Bus before he did. I got my bag and was waiting outside for Yacub (Jacob) to come off, but the bus was empty and he still had not come out. I went to the driver and asked him where the man sitting next to me had gone? To my astonishment and confusion he said, "There was no man sitting next to you." Was I crazy or what? I said maybe I was dreaming. But I still had the taste of the sandwich in my mouth. I still had the book in my bag. What was Yacub? Who was he? Why didn't he go to his friend's house? Then I remembered that the friend's name was Zana and only then realized he meant me. |
READ Zana's entire Story HERE
SBD |
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PhantomSgt
Vice Admiral
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 972
Location: GUAM, USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:35 am Post subject: |
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Events are unfolding before our eyes that have been prophesized for centuries:
Hamas who has as their primary goal the elimination of Israel, has risen as the new power on the West Bank and Gaza.
Iran is going ahead at full speed to realize their nuclear ambitions with the ultimate goal of destroying Israel.
European cartoonists have managed to ignite the fury of the entire Muslim World. By doing so have placed every Westerner residing within Muslim countries in imminent danger. European embassies and Western businesses are lying in ashes and the riots that took place in France will look mild in comparison to what is coming in the future to the European Continent.
Al Que'da is the least of their problems now.
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Uisguex Jack
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 613
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Congess shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or the press; or the right of people to peaceable assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
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| Quote: | | Since Islam and Muslims cannot even stand to cartoons, I don't see how Islam can be compatible with democracy |
| Quote: | | the right of people to peaceable assemble |
For me this is the crux of the issue. We have the right to any religion we like and to exercise it therein..... However two things come to mind, one how come we don't have no prayer in schools? Does Islam get a exception on this one?
If I go to church and the preacher (hypothetically) shows me some misrepresentations of cartoons in a magazine and than says anyone having anything to do with this should be beheaded, Does this count as 'Peaceable Assemble', seems to me it's quite the opposite. Thus any religion condoning violence from the pulpit could be shut down.
Secondly.... I've not seen it posted here but there are a slew of earlier Images of the big bad Mohammad...... and this recent round of riled hot heads is nothing but manufactured B.S. testing just how much these imams can spin things up from Denmark to Jakarta.
Miniature of Mohammed re-dedicating the Black Stone at the Kaaba. From Jami Al-Tawarikh ("The Universal History" written by Rashid Al-Din), a manuscript in the Library of the University of Edinburgh; illustrated in Tabriz, Persia, c. 1315
Of all the pictures found HERE This is one of my favorite...... that Black Stone thing is one of a few of the Idols Which are not to be worshiped that the benevolent Mohammad decided after some thought were worth worshiping anyway. |
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joeshero
Commander
Joined: 30 Aug 2004
Posts: 321
Location: Midwest
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| Posted: Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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I remember that in 1990s, an Indonesian publisher was bombarded with death threats and his office was ransacked by Indonesian Muslims. At that time, you could not really be able to distinguish the moderates from the ones who demanded the head of the publisher, who himself was also a Muslim. Almost all seemed to agree that the publisher must be punished.
The publisher’s sin?
He published a poll of the most famous people chosen by his tabloid readers. Mohammed was on number 8 or 9 in the pack, ahead of the country’s president and other influential figures.
The Indonesian government put the publisher for at least 5 years in jail and his tabloid was banned.
A few years later, hundred of innocent people, who were mostly Christians, were killed in Nigeria because a simple “incidence” about Mohammed wrote by a publisher in Nigerian newspaper.
So much for the religion of peace which many people said it is compatible with democracy. This also can be a simple refutation to Lew’s comment suggesting that we have to differentiate the “radicals” from the “moderates”. As it often the case, we cannot really able to recognize one from the other. After all, in 2002 and 2003, more than 50% of people in Islamic countries thought that Bin Laden was hero, and continue to be so. The radicals do the slaughters, and the permanent silence of the so-called “moderates” seems only to indicate that they have no problem with that—or as others who are critical of their silence suggest, they provide “ammunition” to the radicals.
The killings of innocent children in Beslan a few years ago by Islamic radicals could have been a moment of truth for the “moderates” to show that they indeed really reject the ideology of terrorism. Yet, what we heard were blaming games: keep blaming the Jews, the West and the Infidels.
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All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. |
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fortdixlover
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 1476
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LewWaters
Admin
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:06 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | This also can be a simple refutation to Lew’s comment suggesting that we have to differentiate the “radicals” from the “moderates”. As it often the case, we cannot really able to recognize one from the other. |
So, Joe, do you also condemn all the American Muslims currently serving in our Military and fighting either in Iraq or Afghanistan? What about all the Iraqis and Afghanis fighting alongside our Military? Are they also part of the indistinguishable radicals?
Now, think how others look upon all the cries from Christian Nations against Muslims and do you think we are separated?
Notions as this have been around almost forever. All Jews must be eliminated because they are Jews. Blacks must be servants because they are Black (justified by out of context verses from the Bible, incidentally). Indians are savages and must either be killed or moved away from Whites. Every culture has taken a similar stance at one time or another and the animosity between factions of Christians and Muslims isn't new, it's one of the oldest. As long as factions of both Christianity and Islam look upon each other as worthy of extinction, it will continue and escalate and, I'm afraid, dragging otherwise innocents into the fight sooner or later.
Blanket solutions rarely work and are what I see as some of the worst solutions we ever get which often end up making matters worse.
In Viet Nam, we easily could tell South Vietnamese from Viet Cong. Charlie was the one shooting at us. 
Slaughter terrorists, but I'm for bringing the others into the world fold. Don't forget, you are only hearing of and seeing the radicals on the news, not the several millions that are avoiding this. |
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PhantomSgt
Vice Admiral
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 972
Location: GUAM, USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:35 am Post subject: |
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Danes, Brits, Frenchies and other white Euros are fleeing from Muslim countries around the Planet.
It ain't the terrorists that have them on the run Lew, it is your so called "moderate" Muslims that are calling the shots and have them on the run.
By the time you figure out who the enemy is it may be too late for us all.
Of course we are speaking about a "Religion of Peace" here. That should comfort the folks running for their lives.
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Retired AF E-8
Independent that leans right of center. |
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Uisguex Jack
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 613
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:53 am Post subject: |
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Oddly enough I am no longer able to access 'islamonline' dot com. (al fazeera website) Maybe something to do with some pictures I posted on the message board and a little history lesson and mentioning the movie 'the life of brian'.
If any of you can get over there and read the thread on these cartoons I'd like to hear what is up.
It is funny what can force people to wake up some times. The Cole, 911, and all have had a fraction of the enlightenment to America's left as has this episode. The 'reporters' in the MSM seem to under stand this sort of thing Ain't good for the Standard Operating Proceedure of the likes of Dan Rather et. all.... |
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SBD
Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2004
Posts: 1022
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:05 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
From To The Point News
When Justice Samuel Alito dons his black robe and takes his seat with his fellow Justices in the Court Chamber of the Supreme Court, he will see on the wall to his right a magnificent frieze of ivory vein Spanish marble, forty feet long and over seven feet high, sculpted by Adolph Weinman in 1932.
This is the North Frieze of the Supreme Court. There is a South Frieze, which Justice Alito will see on the wall to his left. The friezes depict “Great Lawgivers of History.” Among others, the South Frieze depicts Hammurabi, Moses, Solomon, Solon, Confucius, and Octavian.
The picture you see here are three of the nine “lawgivers” carved by Weinman on the North Frieze. The figure on the right is Justinian. The figure on the left is Charlemagne. The figure in the middle, holding the Koran and the Sword of Islam, is Mohammed.
Since any physical depiction of “The Prophet” as the Moslems call their founder is blasphemous, will this disclosure result in bomb threats by Islamofascists or demonstrations by the terrorist apologizers of CAIR?
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SBD |
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dcornutt
PO3
Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 267
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:42 am Post subject: |
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Let me ask a couple of questions that I cannot seem to get anyone to answer:
If the US had been the first to publish these cartoons, and they were burning our embassies...what do you think the reaction from the EU would have been? To act in soidarity and publish it too? Or to accuse "us" of creating terroists, torture, crimes against humanity and use it like a hammer to swack us right between the eyes while they sat and watched our embassies burn and people's bodies dragged in the street?
What do you think?
Next: where were they when the Quran riots were going on that killed numerous people, hostages taken and exectued citing it, etc? Where was the principal and solidarity then?
Lastly: what makes this different from the Quran riots? |
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