SwiftVets.com

[Paul]

As far as my service is concerned, then I provide one hell of a lot more by way of particular details, large and small, in my replies demonstrating my personal familiarity with my years in the navy than some who have challenged me here have.

Maybe there's more details in other posts in other strings that I haven't seen (Richard demonstrated some familiarity with his mention of "Da Jungle" in Olongapo in another string), but in this string, all that I see from a couple of you are broad claims. Anyone can be a blowhard with a bunch of vague statements and claims. I could claim to have been Admiral, but wouldnt and wouldn't be able to support it.

And I honestly don't understand the spins for an article that has statements supportive of John Kerry and negative toward the Swift Boat Veterans.
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Paul

[air_vet]

Paul,

I never claimed my "rules" were anything absolute - just guidance I had received from many sources. As I said, I only had to use that aproach once, and of course I had had many discussions with that individual prior to writing the performance report.

There were always printed list of canned statements to be used in performance reports floating around - I saw several of the kind of statements they contained used when I looked over Kerry's fitness reports - for example from a report written 3 Sept 68 "He presents a very neat appearance and meets people well." Barf! Just what the hell does something like THAT mean?

I NEVER used such garbage in any of the reports I wrote. Any reports sent to me for my comments and signature were always carefully reviewed my me. Reports containing any such canned garbage got sent back for a re-write.

People did well with reports written or reviewed my me. I always believed (and still do) "Take care of your people and they will take care of you."

[Paul]

"I never claimed my "rules" were anything absolute . . ."

Hi AV:

Thanks for your reply. I appreciate it.

I think that you understand my initial response was only to say the same. In this one, I probably caused confusion by putting it in the PS and not being clear about what I was calling "garbage" and why I was in my PS.

I apologize for that and hope that I made my meaning clear.

And I hope that it's clear why I personally won't read Franks' statements in this context or any other proposed context. Even if this is what the General is doing, I'm not impressed at all with the General.

After that, then, hey, I understand what you're saying, including your mention of some of the boiler plate phrases used. And I don't think that it will come as a surprise to you that I agree with what you say about many of those absurd things too. Darn right about a lot of them "barf" and what in the world does it mean?

To be fair, a lot of guys that I knew who wrote evals used them more out of convenince. Another aspect is that I think it's fair to say that writing evals was a task seen as a pain for most that I knew. I don't know that I ever knew anyone, including myself, who enjoyed the task or looked forward to it. In one small contradiction of my statement on generalizations, then I suspect that may actually be a fair generalization in both the navy and across the branches as well, no?

Obviously I agree with you about taking care of one's people. Let me tell you, the First Class who stupidly babbled about "room to grow" to lower the marks on a top hand got a good blast from myself, his immediate Chief and his Division Officer on that one (Ships were structured by Departments, with Divisions inside the Departments and work centers inside the divisions when I was in. I won't swear on the work centers, but the Departments and divisions structures were standard for years prior to my service as well. Evaluations began with work center supervisor, then to Division Leading Petty Officer, then to the Division Chief, then to the Divison Officer and then to the Department Head. Finally approval and signature was by the Ship's Executive Officer -- The real work was Division Officer down, or it was a real screwed up division).

Also to be honest, there was one guy in that division I mention who wasn't such a blatant trouble maker that he waurranted charges for discharge or anything, but who so lacked skill in any way that he wasn't recommended for advancement or later for retention at the time of his discharge.

The mistake had been made earlier on that had allowed him to advance to 3rd Class when he shouldn't have been recommended for it on the hope that it would straighten him out, but didn't.

Those sham advancements cause problems among the top hands as well by cheapening their evaluations. And the problem of explaining why all of a sudden the “dead wood” who was recommended last year isn't recommended this year when really he's the same "dead wood" that he always was.

That's another major reason for my opinions.

Believe me, I've dealt directly and personally with some concrete results and consequences of other people’s doublespeak!

In fact, that particular hand was one who as a seaman had to be told plainly to take showers and to do his dirty laundry when in port and not leave it hanging off his wrack in his ditty bag fouling the whole berthing compartment with its smell. His technical and mechanical skills were non-existent and he had the personality of dirty dish water. Hey, we worked with him and finally settled on making sure he worked on tasks together with a skilled hand. No system could change the fact that he just didn't have the ability to work on his own.

Ok. sorry, I'm a babbler. But just some more reasons for my earlier opinions.

Thanks again for your reply and the clarification.
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Paul

[air_vet]

[Paul]

"I always felt they were one of the most important parts of my job. That old 'take care of your people thing...' "

Hi AV:

I agree 100%. I didn't enjoy the task but believed it to be an important one and took it seriously and did the best I could, both to make sure that the top hands got the clear recongnition that they deserved and that even the guys with problems received a fair, clear and honest treatment. That's why in those cases, I always made it a point for personal contact with the man. Those men deserved to be treated right and like men too.
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Paul

[JOHN H. MULFORD]

General Franks is correct. Kerry is over 35 yrs. of age an a natural born American. These are Kerry's qualifications. However, Kerry's conduct during his brief service with the SWIFTBOATS, which is presently being exposed by his former shipmates, Kerry's post service conduct and affilliations with dissidents and belligerants to the cause of US policy during the VN conflict raise serious issues about Kerry's mindset and abilities to perform the required duties of Commander in Chief. General Franks managed two wars successfully and has earned respect, BRAVO ZULU, GENERAL.
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BIGLOOK

[Paul]

Hi Mike:

How about yourself? You ran your mouth, you made implications about me, I addressed them, now how about an answer to my questions from you?

Do you seriously believe that typing something like “Sierra Hotel, Sir!!!” demonstrates anything at all????

Truth to tell, I don’t even know what it means.

But you make me especially curious with your phrasing about a “uniform of the US military.”

It’s a peculiar phrasing. There is NO SUCH uniform.

It’s the Canadians who wear (or at least used to back in the ‘70s and ‘80s) a uniform common to all of the branches of their Armed Forces, military and naval services.

I wore a uniform that an old fella in Phoebas (sp?), downtown Hampton, Virginia once RIGHTLY reminded me in public to remember IS a proud uniform: US Navy Dress Blues.

I also wore US navy whites, dungarees and even the one time “salt and peppers” as well as the experimented-with uniform of the ‘70s of blouse and combination cap.

In short, I wore the uniform of the US Navy.

It didn't make me a hero merely for having worn it, but there have been heroes who did wear that uniform and Literally millions of Americans before, with, and and after me who wore that same proud uniform. The dress blues I was in wearing when the old fella commented was virtually identical to the uniform millions over the courser of the entire 20th century and now into the 21st with only minor changes.

Your phrasing is peculiar to me. You’ve demonstrated nothing in this string to have the gall to come in and make the statements to me that you did and to raise the implication about me that you rose.

I answered you clearly and plainly. How about ‘stepping up to the plate’ and doing the same with my questions.

In particular, do you also have an interest in making a spin on General Franks’ statements in this article or in defending the spins on his statements in this string?

If so, then why when his statements are supportive of John Kerry and those along with his statements on “hyperbole” in the article are plainly derisive toward the Swift Boat Vets in particular?

I made an attempt to make answers to my statements, how about doing the same?
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Paul

[Navy_Navy_Navy]

Everyone involved in this discussion - please stand down and speak respectfully to each other.

Thank you,
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~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother

[Paul]

Hi N-N-N:

To be honest, I don’t mind aggressive conversations and so far really don't see any disrespectful statements being directed at anyone by anyone else. No foul name calling directed at anyone or anything associated with them by anyone else.

After that, then for myself, I'm willing to both give and to receive blunt and plain statements on whatever issues arise and I don’t hold any grudges because of it or take such as disrepectful toward me from anyone else.

Call me a dirty name or insult the memory of my late mother or something like it, then it'll be another another story!

Be sure, I don't hold any animosities toward anyone here and haven't seen anything to indicate anyone holding any against me.

Between VP and myself, I read it as having resulted in clarifying some points we were both making, including a point of agreement.
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Paul

[Shane's PopPop]

Hi Richard: I agree with your statement "Kerry isn't interested in America. He's interested in his own political aggrandizement, and in power. " Here's hoping that You and Yours are save down there in Ft. Myers Fla.
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This space for rent!

[MikeWinn]

Paul, Hi. You are absulutely right about the courtesy of a response and I will endeavor to do so here.

Paul said:

[air_vet]

[MikeWinn]

Air-vet,

I understand and agree. I wasn't trying to draw a parallel betweent the 2.
I was only trying to convey my experiences, which were quite similar to yours, to Paul. Many of the APR's I wrote were like the one's you described, eg. the great technician entry. While I understand the the OER's were more for promotion purposes, I would argue that the APR, while used in the promotion process as a factor, was used, at least by me, to address goals and direction. I would use the administration process to tell them what I perceived as weaknesses and needed growth areas. I guess what I'm trying to say, in far too many words, is that I was trying to support your argument about Franks and his statements with respect to Paul. I assumed that the Navy and the AF might be different in their evaluation process. That may be true or not. Thanks for the clarification, though AV.
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LOCK & LOAD!


GunnerMike
Spectre Gunner and 141 FE
Dedicated to Rico. KIA March 14, 1971.
Love ya man.

[NavyChief]

I wanna weigh in, pleeeeasssseeee.

To the discussion of fitreps - yep. Done that. Knowing full well my recommendation would be heard loud and clear at the selection board. That's how us Chiefs get our "revenge"

On Franks: Well, duh?! The guy is in a pretty tough spot don't you think? Do you really think he's gonna say on the camera what he says around the dinner table about Kerry?

How many of us stand tall and salute properly when the ole SOB comes around? Does that mean we like and respect him? paaaleeease...

Hey Paul. Sorry about the acronym SOB - but did you really not know what Sierra Hotel meant? just curious, I thought it was very common.
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Working with Senator Kerry four years in the POW/MIA Office left me thinking -- when did the man ever do any work?

[RStauch]