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drjohn
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 09 Aug 2004
Posts: 550
Location: CT
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 Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Madeiros claims to have seen Rasman's head bobbing in the water. How is it he could see Rassman if Rassman observed that all the boats left the area? How could Madeiros see Rassman and not vice versa? |
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integritycounts
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 667
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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"At first, nobody noticed what had happened to Rassmann. But then Medeiros, who was standing at the stern, saw him bobbing up and down in the water and shouted, "Man overboard." Around this time, crew members said, Kerry decided to go back to help the crippled 3 boat. It is unclear how far down the river Kerry's boat was when he turned around. It could have been anywhere from a few hundred yards to a mile."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21239-2004Aug21.html |
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Frank B
Ensign
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 58
Location: Montana
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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Is Hurley anyone to question the Swifties?? Where was he during those four months Kerry was on the PCF's?
That WaPo diagram just seems to confuse more than clear up. And, yeah, was Alston on board if he had suffered a head wound in January? It seems that the only way we can get answers to the important questions of who, where and when is to get the Navy to release all the records surrounding the Swift Boat activities during those four critical months, including Kerry's medical records. Otherwise we will be spending a lot of time speculating and not much on the bigger issue of Kerry's disgraceful anti-war activities, his disparaging fabrications of atrocities that brought shame to the Vietnam Vet and his giving aid and comfort to our enemies.
The way he embellished his military record disgusts most veterans but doesn't seem to be registering much with the rest of the American voters. What they need to see and hear is how Kerry allied himself during a time of war with the Leftists and Socialists who hated and still hate this country. Hopefully, the new Swift Boat ads will do that.
There are honorable men still suffering today because of Kerry's post-Vietnam statements and activities. The route he took on his way to political power was littered with those he shamed and dishonored and the veterans and their families are the ones who really understand that.
_________________
"Any government that believes money should be taken from Peter to pay Paul will, of course,
have the support of Paul" -- G B Shaw |
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manofaiki
Former Member
Joined: 15 Aug 2004
Posts: 96
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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Steve Gardner on Scarbourough Country on MSNBC had a more plausible explanation for how Rasseman ended up in the water:
When the first and only mine went off under PCF 3, Kerry gave orders to high-tail it out of there and when they throttled up they sped up so fast Rasseman was thrown into the water.
The 'second explosion' is an invention to cover up the fact that ...as usual.....when his boat came under fire Kerry gave the order to run away..........FAST.
manofaiki
_________________
"If any man has not the stomach for this fight, let him depart from us.! We would not die in that man's company!"
You bugged out in Vietnam - so we don't need you commanding us in the War on Terror!
So get lost, John Kerry!!!!! |
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Frank B
Ensign
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 58
Location: Montana
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:18 pm Post subject: The Traitor within |
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This is the Kerry we all know:
"A nation can survive its fools and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and he carries his banners openly against the city. But the traitor moves among those within the gates freely, his sly whispers rustling through all alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears no traitor; he speaks in the accents familiar to his victim, and he wears their face and their garments and he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation; he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of a city; he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to be feared. The traitor is the plague."
Marcus Tullius Cicero, Roman Orator - 106-43 B.C.
_________________
"Any government that believes money should be taken from Peter to pay Paul will, of course,
have the support of Paul" -- G B Shaw |
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sevry
Commander
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 326
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| Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| manofaiki wrote: |
The 'second explosion' is an invention to cover up the fact that ...as usual.....when his boat came under fire Kerry gave the order to run away..........FAST.
manofaiki |
I wonder about Rassman's credibility, period. He seems like he made all this up. From the very day, 17 JAN 2004, at that black organization rally, Rassman spoke of a second explosion, of swimming down (not sinking), of coming up under heavy fire, each time, and of seeing the boats go away around the bend - out of sight. A minute, two, later, all the boats are heading back around the bend, his way, having turned around to rescue him, in a seventy-foot wide canal. Kerry comes over - still heavy fire. Kerry 'could have been shot at any time.' Yeah - sure.
I think he's making it up. Kerry seems suprized at parts of the story on 17 JAN. He almost seems to say to Rassman - let's not get too carried away with this. I didn't know you "swum" under, etc. He's kind of joking about it. I almost seeing him saying, let's not get too crazy with this story.
The best you can make of his story is this. It's speculation. But he was virtually mistaken about everything. He had no powers of observation and completely panicked in the water.
So Kerry guns the boat, suspecting an ambush - as everyone there did. Rassman's thrown off. He's probably sitting on the stern, with the bag of chocolate chip cookies. That's fine. But don't put people in for a Silver Star for that (he supposedly recommended Kerry for a Silver Star, though I've not seen his name on any Award Recommendation for Kerry). He's supposed to know how to swim. Maybe he skipped a few classes. And he's having trouble. He hears the outgoing fire behind him and presumes the enemy is on shore shooting back. He assumes it all - again best case scenario for him. But it's just his own splashing. So he's bobbing there as KERRY'S is hurtling away from his at full throttle. Say there really was a bend up ahead. Rassman, panicked, and never looked behind him to see the other three boats still undamaged. And he thinks Kerry is the last in the column. Madeiros, presumeably, tells Kerry - man overboard. Kerry has to come all the way back around the bend and sees Chenoweth's 23 heading over to Rassman. He guns it to 'save' Rassman from Chenoweth, and thus saves Rassman's life. Unfortunately for Kerry, he claims to see Rassman 'bobbing' in the water as Kerry looks astern, speaking on 17 JAN as he's 'joking'. So . . it didn't even jibe on the very first day.
But . . . no - I think he just made it up. |
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Wing Wiper
Rear Admiral
Joined: 09 Aug 2004
Posts: 664
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:15 am Post subject: |
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| Rassmann was either loaded down with too much equipment (LBJ?), or he's a poor swimmer. Sounds like the guy almost drowned to me, rescued in a total panic (not that I'm saying I wouldn't have been the same), finally grabbed onto the first thing to come in range (Kerry's boat), and got pulled onboard. A near-death experience and the first thing he remembers seeing is Kerry's face, saving his life. I'd be willing to bet he doesn't really remember much of anything from the time he went in the water until Kerry pulled him back in the boat, Special Forces guy or not. I'd also bet he'll be with Kerry until the end. O'Niell should work on this guy's "testimony" every chance he gets, it might start to fall apart without Kerry there to shut him up. He's a braggart, from the sound of things, and wants to be a star. |
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sevry
Commander
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 326
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| Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 10:07 am Post subject: |
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Wing Wiper, that's not a bad speculation. If you'd been in O'Neill's seat and suggested that to Lehrer and Oliphant, they might actually have said - hey, interesting. May . . bee.
I noticed - yet again - cause I just got the book today - that they mention the PCF 35, and don't mention Droz. The book is wrong, as far as anyone knows - correct? And Kerry is described as 'graciously' going over to get Rassman, instead of Chenoweth, because Kerry tore back fast enough to be 20 years closer than Chenoweth. But it doesn't describe Kerry as sort of racing up to cut Chenoweth off. And I wonder if anyone had heard of a definitive sort of characterization of how that 'rescue' proceeded? |
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greasepaint
Seaman
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 177
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 10:36 am Post subject: |
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Do we know for sure that Rassmann was on Kerry's boat?
...
Here is my explanation:
Rass is on some other boat, eating. Nearby explosion throws several
into the water. Kerry guns boat downstream, in part to get some
maneuvering room, to turn to go back upstream to help.
Kerry's boat sees Rass, Kerry helps Rass out of the water.
There may have been a second explosion, but it was not a threat to
Kerry's boat. Kerry makes up story about the second mine, dazed
and confused Rass sorta believes it, in part because Rass could have been confused about what boat he fell off of.
...
Kerry, in the pilothouse, gets hit with shrapnel, how will the Kerry
people explain that? |
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Son Of The Godfather
Captain
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 540
Location: Camarillo, CA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 10:41 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Kerry, in the pilothouse, gets hit with shrapnel, how will the Kerry
people explain that? |
Sounds like an Oliver Stone movie to me... "And THAT, ladies and gentlemen, was one magic piece of shrapnel."
SOTG
_________________
"Which candidate would enemies of the United States prefer to see in the White House?" |
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igor
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 81
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| Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| sevry wrote: | | manofaiki wrote: |
The 'second explosion' is an invention to cover up the fact that ...as usual.....when his boat came under fire Kerry gave the order to run away..........FAST.
manofaiki |
I wonder about Rassman's credibility, period. He seems like he made all this up. From the very day, 17 JAN 2004, at that black organization rally, Rassman spoke of a second explosion, of swimming down (not sinking), of coming up under heavy fire, each time, and of seeing the boats go away around the bend - out of sight. A minute, two, later, all the boats are heading back around the bend, his way, having turned around to rescue him, in a seventy-foot wide canal. Kerry comes over - still heavy fire. Kerry 'could have been shot at any time.' Yeah - sure.
I think he's making it up. Kerry seems suprized at parts of the story on 17 JAN. He almost seems to say to Rassman - let's not get too carried away with this. I didn't know you "swum" under, etc. He's kind of joking about it. I almost seeing him saying, let's not get too crazy with this story.
The best you can make of his story is this. It's speculation. But he was virtually mistaken about everything. He had no powers of observation and completely panicked in the water.
So Kerry guns the boat, suspecting an ambush - as everyone there did. Rassman's thrown off. He's probably sitting on the stern, with the bag of chocolate chip cookies. That's fine. But don't put people in for a Silver Star for that (he supposedly recommended Kerry for a Silver Star, though I've not seen his name on any Award Recommendation for Kerry). He's supposed to know how to swim. Maybe he skipped a few classes. And he's having trouble. He hears the outgoing fire behind him and presumes the enemy is on shore shooting back. He assumes it all - again best case scenario for him. But it's just his own splashing. So he's bobbing there as KERRY'S is hurtling away from his at full throttle. Say there really was a bend up ahead. Rassman, panicked, and never looked behind him to see the other three boats still undamaged. And he thinks Kerry is the last in the column. Madeiros, presumeably, tells Kerry - man overboard. Kerry has to come all the way back around the bend and sees Chenoweth's 23 heading over to Rassman. He guns it to 'save' Rassman from Chenoweth, and thus saves Rassman's life. Unfortunately for Kerry, he claims to see Rassman 'bobbing' in the water as Kerry looks astern, speaking on 17 JAN as he's 'joking'. So . . it didn't even jibe on the very first day.
But . . . no - I think he just made it up. |
from http://www.tdn.com/articles/2004/01/24/oregon/news04.txt
"Rassmann recalls sidling along the deck next to the pilot house, a rifle in each hand, intending to give one to the bow gunner, when a second mine detonated, launching him into the water. Weighed down by guns, grenades, and ammunition, he sank to the bottom until the five boats passed overhead, then shed his gear and surfaced." - Jan 17
and from a recent Washington Post or Times article...
"And Del Sandusky, a crew mate of Kerry, was the eyewitness listed in the award recommendation for Kerry."
So does it mean that it was Del Sandusky that recommended Kerry, and NOT Rassmann as Rassmann claimed?
... the story keeps changing and changing. |
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sevry
Commander
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 326
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| Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| greasepaint wrote: | Do we know for sure that Rassmann was on Kerry's boat?
...
Here is my explanation:
Rass is on some other boat, eating. Nearby explosion throws several
into the water. Kerry guns boat downstream, in part to get some
maneuvering room, to turn to go back upstream to help.
Kerry's boat sees Rass, Kerry helps Rass out of the water.
There may have been a second explosion, but it was not a threat to
Kerry's boat. Kerry makes up story about the second mine, dazed
and confused Rass sorta believes it, in part because Rass could have been confused about what boat he fell off of.
...
Kerry, in the pilothouse, gets hit with shrapnel, how will the Kerry
people explain that? |
I was describing the first known public testimony on this at the 17 JAN 2004 'Creative Vision' rally for Kerry, as seen on the video that may still be on Kerry's website called, Reunion. It was pointed out to me by someone else on these boards.
And Rassman is clearly saying he was on Kerry's boat. He heard the explosion of one of "John's boats" nearby. Kerry was not Officer in Tactical Command. In fact, he may have been the most junior there. Then Rassman quickly shifts to an 'explosion' which 'may have been' what injured your arm, he says to Kerry. Kerry is standing just a few feet from him, as Rassman speaks. Rassman speaks about swimming, not sinking, to the bottom to avoid boats passing overhead. It's as you say, here. He's trying to say that various PCF boats passed overhead on their way further down stream.
The boats pass out of sight around a bend. They are gone. He's afraid. He says he's being shot at from the shore, all alone in the water. He keeps submerging. About the fifth time he surfaces, he sees Kerry's 94 in the lead of the other boats, plural, coming to save him. Etc. Etc.
So Kerry then ruefully talks about it bringing back memories. He pauses for dramatic effect. And then he starts joking. He says we didn't know you were gone - ha-ha. I looked back, says Kerry, and there you were, bobbing in the water. So Kerry's saying he went missing from the 94, and that Kerry, looking back, saw him floating in the canal. Presumeably that was before they rounded the bend and went out of Rassman's sight.
Now this is Rassman standing not more than a few feet from Kerry, the very first time he's supposedly spoken of this. This is his initial testimony. And Kerry says he fell off, Kerry looked back, oops - let's go pick him up. Rassman says, he fell off, bullets flying everywhere, help o help, John where you going, don't go around the bend and leave me - oh, praise, John's returned to save me. He could have been killed coming out onto the bow to pull me up, said Rassman - cause he's out of the water now, and saying he still sees the bullets flying.
Kerry briefly says that 'this guy', Rassman, spent all his time alone. Special forces isolation? Or was it just tin-foil hat? And I don't mean to offend anyone. But it was kind of an odd out-of-the-blue Kerry aside. And all this just doesn't come close to matching the facts now agreed on. It's not really even in the ballpark. As I said, in NYPD Blue, this is where Sipowitz bursts into the interrogation room and throws the 'perp' up against the cage, saying to him - you're gonna talk now! |
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Dimsdale
Captain
Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 527
Location: Massachusetts: the belly of the beast
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| Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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Did anyone notice the subtle "cut" after the fish weir (between graphic numbers 7 and 8? This mapping shorthand trick allows large distances to be "spliced" to fit a map. This indicates that the distance between the fleeing Kerry and the other boats is much greater than the graphic can depict.
Kerry ran and ran far! I note that there is no scale of miles on the river graphic! I love the WaPo's description: "Kerry's boat passes through the weir unharmed and "continues" down river" Translation: ran like a scalded ape.
_________________
Everytime he had a choice, Kerry chose to side with communists rather than the United States. |
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stop kerry
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 96
Location: Columbus Ohio
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| Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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If someone here is talented with graphics they could do another schematic that shows the real situation that is outlined in the Unfit for Command book. It could be used as an overlay on this picture to show what really happened. I also think Dimdale hit on the real problem here the 'scale' and the distances on the schematic are not shown. Also was Alston there ?????? or was his replacement there??? This schematic is obviously from navy and from kerry's account. The SBVT could use the same technique to illustrate this to anyone who you have an interview
with and it could be sent out to allies for them to use also. The old saw of a picture is worth a thousand words is true. You can see how the battle started and what happened. It's then possible to show the differences and they would be much much harder to refute.  |
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greasepaint
Seaman
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 177
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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the Bronze Star incident...
Kerry's central contention is.. there was a second, serious explosion near
Kerry's boat. I don't see how that is possible, with Rass eating cookies.
When an explosion hits a nearby boat, a normal person would start
thinking about: prepare for maneuvering, are all guns manned, etc.
The Wash Post would have you believe that Rass, after the first explosion,
was knocked into the water, by a second explo. I don't believe that. |
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