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Speedy
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 77
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 Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Greenhat wrote: | | Mark Smith is not a fan of John McCain, Why is that? |
It was answered above....because Smith thinks there are still POW's over there and Mcain doesn't. Reread it.....your answer is there.
| Greenhat wrote: | | Mark Smith is not a fan of John McCain, but then again, not many of the POWs are. Why is that? |
If this were true, which it is not, it would be because of the lies Smith has spreading about Mcain. Lies that you have done your part, and continue to do your part, in spreading.
It is obvious to me at this point, you were perpetuating your buddy Smith's lies during the primaries in regard to Mcain....you were part of the smear. You should be ashamed! But you are not.
Greenhat: Where do YOU get off smearing the honorable service of a Vietnam Vet????? You smeared Mcain, now you are smearing Kerry. |
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Speedy
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Navymomx2 wrote: | | KeithNolan wrote: | I began this second thread with a number of specific questions about the trashing of John Kerry and several points in defense of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War. Nobody seems willing to answer those questions or address those points in any meaningful way. Instead, this second thread (like the first) has quickly degenerated into a lot of screaming and name-calling. Ugh.
I'm told that I don't answer your questions, either. Okay, let me try one more time to answer questions I've already answered several times over.
You want me to address the issue of John Kerry speaking with members of the communist delegation in Paris during the peace negotiations. Like I've said, I don't really know much about this meeting. Barring the release of a tape-recording of Kerry's discussion with the communist delegation, I don't think any of us really know much about what went on in Paris. I can't stop you ideologues from smoldering with rage at the idea that a thoughtful, highly-intelligent man like John Kerry went looking in some unusual places for answers about a war he had just fought in and about which his government had been lying for years. Having an open mind and questioning the party line (especially the party line as dictated by charlatans like Nixon and LBJ) is not tantamount to treason, you know. Basically, I'm not buying the innuendo behind your harping on the Paris meeting that Kerry is the updated version of the Manchurian Candidate.
Can't you guys even be original. The smearing of John McCain when he was competing with Bush II for the nomination included whispers that he had been converted (brainwashed) to communism while a POW in Hanoi. I remember articles in some of the more rabid right-wing rags during that race which explicitly referred to McCain as the Manchurian Candidate. Now the right-wing is recycling the same garbage about Kerry. I didn't buy it the first time around, and I'm not buying it this time. Sorry.
I'm also not going to collapse with indignation when informed that a drug-addled veteran named Scott Camil, who was also suffering from a serious case of post-traumatic-stress-disorder, used to rant at VVAW meetings about "offing the pigs in Washington." Camil liked to talk tough, and did indeed ramble on about assassinating U.S. Senators. So what? No one took him seriously, least of all Kerry, and I don't believe a single act of violence was committed by VVAW members while Kerry was nominally in charge of the organization. (Did some reading after reading Speedy's comments, and it turns out that Camil did indeed take a bullet in the back from undercover DEA agents in 1973. The drug case against Camil was dismissed and the jury said that the DEA agents should be prosecuted for attempted murder. They weren't, of course.)
You guys all seem to forget that Kerry resigned from the VVAW in late-1971 when the more radical elements took control. There was a huge exodus from the organization at that point, which, by the way, should dispel once and for all the slimy lies you guys traffic in about VVAW being filled with liars, frauds, traitors, and dupes. Most of the guys in VVAW were patriotic young men who loved this country, and who wanted to speak out against a war which they thought was destroying America---patriotic young men who baled on the VVAW when the leadership began drifting into the land of Mao and Marx.
You guys---especially a former Marine named Jones---also have it in your head that I am supposedly at odds with the former Swifties at this website who have expressed disgust with Kerry. Not so. The former sailors in question feel that Kerry overstated the case about war-crimes-as-policy when he was with the VVAW. They feel that he besmirched their honor. Fair enough. I disagree with them (it was Westmoreland, Medina, Calley, and the rest of 'em who besmirched the honor of Vietnam veterans, not some talking head named Kerry), but if they want to make Kerry their scapegoat, so be it. I can see where they're coming from, just like I can see where Kerry was coming from back in 1971. (Remember, I never said I bought Kerry's war-crimes-as-policy argument, just that the subject was murky enough that people are allowed to come to that conclusion without being subjected to a ideologically-driven maniac like Marine's Wife screaming that they're all traitors and commies and dupes who should go back to Russia. Gawd, has Marine's Wife ever heard of the First Amendment or of the exchange of ideas in a free society?)
Mr. Jones, when I speak of "lies and innuendoes," I'm talking about the majority of the folks on this website who never served with Kerry, never served with the Swifties---never served at all, in many cases---but who smugly write of Kerry's incompetence, cowardice, war crimes, and treason. It is clear that these yahoos, haters, and ideologues have no grasp of the facts and are instead fueled by some primitive political philosophy that allows the employment of all manner of dirty tricks to get your man in the White House.
I don't think there are any Swifties on this website who claim that they served with Kerry and saw him slaughter civilians and shoot helpless, wounded guerrillas in the back. Their beef with him is mostly in regards to Kerry's days with the VVAW, not his days in Vietnam. They also don't think he's qualified to be CIC. Again, fair enough---but how does the anger of the Swifties justify the Marine Wives out there to scream their uninformed heads off about how Kerry was trading de-coder rings with the commies in Paris after a half-tour in Vietnam spent murdering civilians and prisoners and generally behaving in an incompetent and cowardly fashion? What a hoot! What a bunch of lies!
Why don't any of your Kerry-hating veterans ever call these yahoos and maniacs on the lies they spread? Why are you so comfortable with this over-the-top bashing of the military service of John F. Kerry?
The dirty-tricksters of the GOP spread lies about the honorable military service of John McCain and Max Cleland. Now they're doing the same favor for John Kerry.
Politics aside, why don't you true-blue veterans out there rally to the defense of the combat service of people like McCain, Kerry, and Cleland? Why don't you tell the dirty-tricksters and the shrieking no-nothings out there to stop spreading filth about McCain having been a collaborator in Hanoi, Cleland having been an incompetent REMF who was fragged by his own men, and Kerry a bumbling, cowardly psycho-in-uniform with a taste for the blood of civilians and wounded Viet Cong?
And when are you finally going to answer the questions and address the points raised in the long statement that opened this thread?
Keith Nolan |
Mr. Nolan,
I have bolded the portion of your post to which I would like to counter. Are you saying that the Edwardsville Intelligencer Edwardsville Illinois Newspaper article dated April 22, 1972 titled "13 Persons Injured in Protest at U of I" is incorrect or falsified in some way. I quote the following paragraph, "Anti-war protesters in New York planned a mile-long march from the edge of Central Park to Bryant Park in mid-Manhattan for a rally featuring speeches by John Kerry, a leader of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War and Sen. Mike Gravel, D-Alaska."
Doesn't sound like the resignation lasted to long. |
I can't believe out of all of that text, you center everything on ONE insignificant sentance and IGNORE everything else said.
NM, or anyone else, please address all I have bolded in the same text.
| KeithNolan wrote: | I began this second thread with a number of specific questions about the trashing of John Kerry and several points in defense of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War. Nobody seems willing to answer those questions or address those points in any meaningful way. Instead, this second thread (like the first) has quickly degenerated into a lot of screaming and name-calling. Ugh.
I'm told that I don't answer your questions, either. Okay, let me try one more time to answer questions I've already answered several times over.
You want me to address the issue of John Kerry speaking with members of the communist delegation in Paris during the peace negotiations. Like I've said, I don't really know much about this meeting. Barring the release of a tape-recording of Kerry's discussion with the communist delegation, I don't think any of us really know much about what went on in Paris. I can't stop you ideologues from smoldering with rage at the idea that a thoughtful, highly-intelligent man like John Kerry went looking in some unusual places for answers about a war he had just fought in and about which his government had been lying for years. Having an open mind and questioning the party line (especially the party line as dictated by charlatans like Nixon and LBJ) is not tantamount to treason, you know. Basically, I'm not buying the innuendo behind your harping on the Paris meeting that Kerry is the updated version of the Manchurian Candidate.
Can't you guys even be original. The smearing of John McCain when he was competing with Bush II for the nomination included whispers that he had been converted (brainwashed) to communism while a POW in Hanoi. I remember articles in some of the more rabid right-wing rags during that race which explicitly referred to McCain as the Manchurian Candidate. Now the right-wing is recycling the same garbage about Kerry. I didn't buy it the first time around, and I'm not buying it this time. Sorry.
I'm also not going to collapse with indignation when informed that a drug-addled veteran named Scott Camil, who was also suffering from a serious case of post-traumatic-stress-disorder, used to rant at VVAW meetings about "offing the pigs in Washington." Camil liked to talk tough, and did indeed ramble on about assassinating U.S. Senators. So what? No one took him seriously, least of all Kerry, and I don't believe a single act of violence was committed by VVAW members while Kerry was nominally in charge of the organization. (Did some reading after reading Speedy's comments, and it turns out that Camil did indeed take a bullet in the back from undercover DEA agents in 1973. The drug case against Camil was dismissed and the jury said that the DEA agents should be prosecuted for attempted murder. They weren't, of course.)
You guys all seem to forget that Kerry resigned from the VVAW in late-1971 when the more radical elements took control. There was a huge exodus from the organization at that point, which, by the way, should dispel once and for all the slimy lies you guys traffic in about VVAW being filled with liars, frauds, traitors, and dupes. Most of the guys in VVAW were patriotic young men who loved this country, and who wanted to speak out against a war which they thought was destroying America---patriotic young men who baled on the VVAW when the leadership began drifting into the land of Mao and Marx.
You guys---especially a former Marine named Jones---also have it in your head that I am supposedly at odds with the former Swifties at this website who have expressed disgust with Kerry. Not so. The former sailors in question feel that Kerry overstated the case about war-crimes-as-policy when he was with the VVAW. They feel that he besmirched their honor. Fair enough. I disagree with them (it was Westmoreland, Medina, Calley, and the rest of 'em who besmirched the honor of Vietnam veterans, not some talking head named Kerry), but if they want to make Kerry their scapegoat, so be it. I can see where they're coming from, just like I can see where Kerry was coming from back in 1971. (Remember, I never said I bought Kerry's war-crimes-as-policy argument, just that the subject was murky enough that people are allowed to come to that conclusion without being subjected to a ideologically-driven maniac like Marine's Wife screaming that they're all traitors and commies and dupes who should go back to Russia. Gawd, has Marine's Wife ever heard of the First Amendment or of the exchange of ideas in a free society?)
Mr. Jones, when I speak of "lies and innuendoes," I'm talking about the majority of the folks on this website who never served with Kerry, never served with the Swifties---never served at all, in many cases---but who smugly write of Kerry's incompetence, cowardice, war crimes, and treason. It is clear that these yahoos, haters, and ideologues have no grasp of the facts and are instead fueled by some primitive political philosophy that allows the employment of all manner of dirty tricks to get your man in the White House.
I don't think there are any Swifties on this website who claim that they served with Kerry and saw him slaughter civilians and shoot helpless, wounded guerrillas in the back. Their beef with him is mostly in regards to Kerry's days with the VVAW, not his days in Vietnam. They also don't think he's qualified to be CIC. Again, fair enough---but how does the anger of the Swifties justify the Marine Wives out there to scream their uninformed heads off about how Kerry was trading de-coder rings with the commies in Paris after a half-tour in Vietnam spent murdering civilians and prisoners and generally behaving in an incompetent and cowardly fashion? What a hoot! What a bunch of lies!
Why don't any of your Kerry-hating veterans ever call these yahoos and maniacs on the lies they spread? Why are you so comfortable with this over-the-top bashing of the military service of John F. Kerry?
The dirty-tricksters of the GOP spread lies about the honorable military service of John McCain and Max Cleland. Now they're doing the same favor for John Kerry.
Politics aside, why don't you true-blue veterans out there rally to the defense of the combat service of people like McCain, Kerry, and Cleland? Why don't you tell the dirty-tricksters and the shrieking no-nothings out there to stop spreading filth about McCain having been a collaborator in Hanoi, Cleland having been an incompetent REMF who was fragged by his own men, and Kerry a bumbling, cowardly psycho-in-uniform with a taste for the blood of civilians and wounded Viet Cong?
And when are you finally going to answer the questions and address the points raised in the long statement that opened this thread?
Keith Nolan |
When are the smearers on this board going to truthfully address any of this? Never I guess. |
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Craig
Guest
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Speedy"][quote="Navymomx2"] | KeithNolan wrote: |
When are the smearers on this board going to truthfully address any of this? Never I guess. |
Have you seen a site with"Truth" in its name that truth was its concern? |
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factchecker
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 8:58 pm Post subject: Giap urban legend |
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| LewWaters wrote: | | Factchecker, did the author of that article really do objective research? I don't really expect you to know the answer, but would appreciate you thinking about it. |
As you noticed yourself, the author of that article agrees with you on other major points. In fact he had used the claim about Giap himself to make a point. The fact that this person renounced a claim that benefited his own argument after doing some research on it seems like pretty strong evidence to me that the claim is indeed false.
| LewWaters wrote: | | "We also have several interviews with the former North Vietnamese Colonel who accepted the surrender of of South Vietnam, Bui Tin" |
Don't you think that Bui Tin would have mentioned the surrender plan in the context of the interview, if there in fact had been one? |
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factchecker
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 9:13 pm Post subject: Kerry VVAW resignation |
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Regarding the question of when John Kerry resigned from the VVAW, there appears to be consensus on that he resigned from a VVAW leadership post in November 1971:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/03/23/kerry.fbi/
"Kerry's break with VVAW came at the end of 1971 during a four-day convention for VVAW national coordinators.
The organization's minutes record that Kerry and three other fellow moderates "resigned" their posts."
But it is apparently not clear whether he just resigned from his post at the time or from the VVAW as a whole. (Did they even have formal membership at the time? Did he just let it expire?)
Thus newspaper articles from 1972 presenting Kerry as a VVAW leader (and there appear to be several such articles) are most likely incorrect. Presumably the authors knew that Kerry used to be a VVAW leader, but did not know about his resignation. One may well argue that he probably did not do much to distance himself publicly from VVAW, at least not in early 1972. |
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Navymomx2
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 149
Location: Washington
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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Speedy,
| Quote: | I can't believe out of all of that text, you center everything on ONE insignificant sentance and IGNORE everything else said.
NM, or anyone else, please address all I have bolded in the same text. |
I will address you on this. I try not to address something specifically unless I can back it up or unless I have taken the time to research it. I do have a life, I research what I can when I can. I do not claim to be an expert and a know it all. Just because I don't answer all the other statements in Mr. Nolan's post's doesn't mean I am ignoring them, I just don't have the answer's one way or another. You say "ONE insignificant sentence, well it couldn't have been too insignificant or it wouldn't have been typed in. The fact is, the resignation time has become an issue and defended as being late 1971, I have the article sitting in front of me disproving it.
I came here to find answer's. In trying to find answer's I found I had more question's. Mr. Kerry and/or his supporters have made him/self out to be America's Greatest Hero (my definition). He ran on his Service. I will not take his word or his camps word for the truth, I won't even take Bush's word for it either. Yes, Mr. Kerry went to Vietnam, but I can hardly call him a Hero for 4-5 months Service in that country, not when there are many more out there who served much much longer and did much more, more honorably.
There are question's about his service and his awards he recieved, I don't question he recieved them, he did, Honorably, I don't know, the jury is still out on that.
If you look at the definition of "Hero" in Merriam Webster, I believe both Bush and Kerry could be defined technically as a "Hero's".
Personally, I wish there was alot better choice of candidate's running, I am not totally pleased with Bush.
| Quote: | | When are the smearers on this board going to truthfully address any of this? Never I guess. |
Your comment above is interesting. I must assume you are including me as a smearer. Sorry if the truth doesn't fit what you would maybe like to see for an answer. If someone can prove otherwise about the April 22, 1972 information, more power to you, but do it with proof that can be shown.
It is sad when someone stoops to name calling. I haven't called you any names, so I would appreciate you respecting me by not calling me names.
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KeithNolan
Ensign
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 74
Location: Washington County, Missouri
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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I'm glad that others---Speedy, Craig, and especially Sparky---have continued to fight the good fight against the liars on this website, and I'm enthused that Doug Reese was able to speak authoritatively to the GOP campaign to smear John McCain. What's happening to Kerry now at this website is just more of the same from the dirty-trickster wing of the Republican Party.
This has been going on for years. Craig is right: the FBI did infiltrate the VVAW in 1971 and attempt to provoke its members into acts of violence that would serve to discredit the organization.
Regarding NavyMom's latest attempt to diss on John Kerry, it is a documented fact that resigned from the VVAW in November 1971. Did he continue to speak out against the war? Yes. Was he misidentified in newspaper accounts as still belonging to the VVAW? Apparently so, according to the newspaper account that NavyMom has thrown onto the table. (It looks like Factchecker has already addressed this issue.)
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, NavyMom: your sincerity is palpable and admirable, but you really don't have a clue about Vietnam. If you did, you would understand that denouncing as traitors, liars, frauds, and dupes those combat veterans who felt compelled to join VVAW is unwholesome and un-American. We live in a country where people are supposed to be allowed to disagree without one side branding the other side as communists.
You should leave that kind of trash talk to the likes of History Student, Marine's Wife, and Greenhat.
You should also go out and find a copy of WINTER SOLDIER. I don't agree with everything said on that documentary, but those guys had the right to say what they said without being subjected to the denunciations of someone who apparently gets her information about Vietnam from Rush Limbaugh and partisan websites like Swift Boat Veterans for the Truth.
NavyMom, if you have a life, as you noted, and don't have time to do serious research into the Vietnam War, then why are you here?
And if Kerry's four months in combat (during which time he was superficially wounded three times and twice decorated for valor) leaves you unimpressed, why do you think Bush II is a hero? I'm unaware that Bush II was ever in combat.
AND NOW WILL YOU KERRY-BASHERS FINALLY, FINALLY, ANSWER MY QUESTIONS AND ADDRESS THE POINTS I MADE AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS THREAD???
Wearily,
Keith Nolan |
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KeithNolan
Ensign
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 74
Location: Washington County, Missouri
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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One more thing. I understand that the Kerry-bashers are now floating the idea that a missing page in Kerry's military records will prove that he committed war crimes soon after arriving in Vietnam. Come again? I thought you guys wanted documents, sworn testimony, and videotape to back up every point, but now a MISSING page is all the proof you need.
What point are you guys trying to make? Let's suppose that credible eye-witnesses come forward to offer sworn testimony that when Lieutenant Kerry first got to Vietnam, he had a gung-ho tendency to shoot first and ask questions later and that civilians were needlessly killed as a result. I doubt this will happen, but, hey, anything's possible. Just look at what we now know about Bob Kerrey.
Okay, if these eye-witnesses come forward (and, again, I doubt any will), then Kerry's military service will have been tarnished, and his race to the White House probably derailed. Bush II wins. Hoorah!
But all of this will also serve to reinforce what Kerry was saying when he was with the VVAW in 1971. An officer kills civilians, and instead of being charged or assigned to a desk is merely shuffled off to a new unit to continue his murderous ways. That's VVAW talk, you know.
KN |
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Craig
Guest
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| Posted: Sat May 29, 2004 12:52 am Post subject: |
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| KeithNolan wrote: | One more thing. I understand that the Kerry-bashers are now floating the idea that a missing page in Kerry's military records will prove that he committed war crimes soon after arriving in Vietnam. Come again? I thought you guys wanted documents, sworn testimony, and videotape to back up every point, but now a MISSING page is all the proof you need.
snip |
How could a document or sworn testimony ever measure up to a wild dreogatory speculation? |
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Sat May 29, 2004 3:01 am Post subject: |
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| DougReese wrote: |
Have you ever actually spoken to a POW, as opposed to reading something they have said?
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Yeah, a few, including Nick Rowe.
_________________
De Oppresso Liber |
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Sat May 29, 2004 3:03 am Post subject: |
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| KeithNolan wrote: | | I'm glad that others---Speedy, Craig, and especially Sparky---have continued to fight the good fight |
Keith,
How can you make claim to be a historian?
_________________
De Oppresso Liber |
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LewWaters
Admin
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State
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| Posted: Sat May 29, 2004 3:21 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You figure that Bush set them up and the Democrats shot it down to give aid? Then the Democrats relented later and allowed to shoot down all them helicopters that Norman claiked he was "suckered" into letting them fly? |
Craig, since you're intelligent enough to know how to use a keyboard, surely you know how the government works. The President has to petition Congress, does he not? Only in rare instances may the President act alone. As Johnson did. |
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Speedy
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Sat May 29, 2004 4:15 am Post subject: |
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| KeithNolan wrote: | | AND NOW WILL YOU KERRY-BASHERS FINALLY, FINALLY, ANSWER MY QUESTIONS AND ADDRESS THE POINTS I MADE AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS THREAD??? |
They won't because they can't ....because if they did, their house-of-cards built on lies would collapse.
I think it's funny that they have started a new thread asking everyone to ignore any post that is not anti-kerry. This, from soldiers....instead of facing the challenge, they ignore and surrender.
They do this because even though they will never post it, they know they are doing nothing but lying about a soldier's (Kerry AND Mcain) tour of duty....and it is obvously apparent....so they ignore the questions and points hoping no one will listen to them.
Utterly DISGRACEFUL!
Sh*t, the Fort Campbell warior Greenhat is still slinging mud on Mcain and no one here will stand up for him (aside from Nolan and Reese). It's a shame you guys standby and let greenhat inuendo-lie & thrash a VN POW 
Shame on all of you!
This site has NOTHING to do about truth, and everything to do about mob-hate and lies for political gain.
You should rename it the KerryBashingSite...cause that's all you do.
Too bad this site wasn't put up by the rebublicans when Bush & Mcain were going at it....can you imagine all the slanderous lies about Mcain's service thet would have been hosted here. greenhat is still perpetuating them.
www.Republicans&VetsForBushAtAnyCost.com |
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Speedy
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Sat May 29, 2004 4:31 am Post subject: |
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| Navymomx2 wrote: | | Quote: | | When are the smearers on this board going to truthfully address any of this? Never I guess. |
Your comment above is interesting. I must assume you are including me as a smearer. Sorry if the truth doesn't fit what you would maybe like to see for an answer. If someone can prove otherwise about the April 22, 1972 information, more power to you, but do it with proof that can be shown.
It is sad when someone stoops to name calling. I haven't called you any names, so I would appreciate you respecting me by not calling me names.
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NavyMom, That part of my post was not directed at you or your 1971/72 discrepency. Sorry you felt like I was calling you names....I wasn't  |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Sat May 29, 2004 5:01 am Post subject: |
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| Greenhat wrote: | | DougReese wrote: |
Have you ever actually spoken to a POW, as opposed to reading something they have said?
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Yeah, a few, including Nick Rowe. |
I missed meeting him by a few days, as he escaped just before I arrived in the province to begin my stint as an advisor.
Twenty years later (April, 1989) I made my first trip back to VN, and had his book with me. I read it over two nights in Camau. When I got back home (April 15) I went back to work on the night shift at the post office in Indy. Imagine my surprise when I looked over the shoulder of a co-worker and read in the paper that he had been assasinated. I had no idea he was still in the Army.
Doug |
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