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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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 Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 4:03 am Post subject: |
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| LewWaters wrote: |
Let me know what network the crew was working for and I'll start a letter campaign to have them release the film.
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Hmm, I'd have to say either Fox or CNN, as that's what I'm usually channel surfing between -- they are next to each other on my set. Damned if I could tell you which one, though, as I go back and forth so much.
Kerry was there with a couple who just had their son's name added to The Wall, along with nine others this Memorial Day. Kerry had helped them in this endeavor, and was with them to place some flowers (a wreath?) at his place on The Wall.
Doug |
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LewWaters
Admin
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 4:05 am Post subject: |
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Couldn't be Fox, they have been discussing it today and would have shown it. CNN, possibly, but I still wonder why they don't run the film to show Fox a liar?
Strange, if it was filmed and didn't happen. |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 4:32 am Post subject: |
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| DougReese wrote: | | ASPB wrote: |
Why do you doubt that it even happened? Are you so blinded by ideology that you can't accept that Kerry just might be an arrogant elitist that looks down his roman nose on the plebians? Maybe it's like Abu Ghraib and you'll require photograhic evidence.
Sampley is clearly an extremist, but if you're to believe the press he's an honorable Vet just as your claim that Kerry is. How can you call Kerry's service honorable and not say the same of Sampley? Two full tours trump 4 months and 13 days in my book.
And how do you know that Kerry was filmed the entire time he was there?
I guess that's just another example of ideological faith. From what I hear most cameramen would rather film their feet than film Kerry.
ASPB |
No, I am not blinded by ideology. I just know Sampley.
Where did I ever say Sampley's service wasn't honorable? I have said no such thing. Get Bandit to pull up my "thousands" of posts over on the newsgroup alt.war.vietnam, some of which are between myself and Sampley. As far as that goes, between many of the guys over there and Sampley. Nowhere will you find his service being disparaged. And on that newsgroup, which has a heck of a lot of vets who feel like many of you do about Kerry, you will not find a single vet who . . . . . how do I put this . . . . a single vet who would believe anything Sampley says regarding McCain, Kerry or the POW/MIA issue.
Go over there now and you will see some comments about not believing it happened due to the source(s).
How do I know he was filmed? Because I saw some of the footage, and because there were literally close to a thousand people down there. Filmed the entire time? Yes, either by the network film crew and/or by many of the tourists.
Doug |
Actually Doug,
The concept of honorable service is one I'm writing a piece on based, in part, on some of your comments. It includes the question of the motive of the founders of this forum in questioning Kerry's character. You've twisted our goal into a question of Mr. Kerry's honorable service which it's not. We're not questioning that his service was "honorable" but that his "combat record" may have been the result of his all consuming self-promotion at any cost; including "our" honor.
It's one thing to serve honorably without concern for recognition and another to promote yourself as a "patriotic war hero" in the quest for power after having trashed fellow vets immediately after the war.
In sum, U.S. Navy Combat Vets from Vietnam believe that there are reasonable questions as to whether his "combat record" is the result of self-promotion and that his anti-war activism was just more of the same.
BTW, if he wasn't a candidate for CIC on the first beachheads of a 30 or 40 year war it probably wouldn't be an issue sans the self-promotion. He sure as hell would have been a better socialist president than Clinton but in times of war he's not our choice. Rhetoric aside, what we're about is the quest for Truth and believe doing so, given the consequences, is warranted.
More to come in a day or so. This was just crib notes.  |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 4:50 am Post subject: |
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| ASPB wrote: | | DougReese wrote: | | ASPB wrote: |
Why do you doubt that it even happened? Are you so blinded by ideology that you can't accept that Kerry just might be an arrogant elitist that looks down his roman nose on the plebians? Maybe it's like Abu Ghraib and you'll require photograhic evidence.
Sampley is clearly an extremist, but if you're to believe the press he's an honorable Vet just as your claim that Kerry is. How can you call Kerry's service honorable and not say the same of Sampley? Two full tours trump 4 months and 13 days in my book.
And how do you know that Kerry was filmed the entire time he was there?
I guess that's just another example of ideological faith. From what I hear most cameramen would rather film their feet than film Kerry.
ASPB |
No, I am not blinded by ideology. I just know Sampley.
Where did I ever say Sampley's service wasn't honorable? I have said no such thing. Get Bandit to pull up my "thousands" of posts over on the newsgroup alt.war.vietnam, some of which are between myself and Sampley. As far as that goes, between many of the guys over there and Sampley. Nowhere will you find his service being disparaged. And on that newsgroup, which has a heck of a lot of vets who feel like many of you do about Kerry, you will not find a single vet who . . . . . how do I put this . . . . a single vet who would believe anything Sampley says regarding McCain, Kerry or the POW/MIA issue.
Go over there now and you will see some comments about not believing it happened due to the source(s).
How do I know he was filmed? Because I saw some of the footage, and because there were literally close to a thousand people down there. Filmed the entire time? Yes, either by the network film crew and/or by many of the tourists.
Doug |
Actually Doug,
The concept of honorable service is one I'm writing a piece on based, in part, on some of your comments. It includes the question of the motive of the founders of this forum in questioning Kerry's character. You've twisted our goal into a question of Mr. Kerry's honorable service which it's not. We're not questioning that his service was "honorable" but that his "combat record" may have been the result of his all consuming self-promotion at any cost; including "our" honor.
It's one thing to serve honorably without concern for recognition and another to promote yourself as a "patriotic war hero" in the quest for power after having trashed fellow vets immediately after the war.
In sum, U.S. Navy Combat Vets from Vietnam believe that there are reasonable questions as to whether his "combat record" is the result of self-promotion and that his anti-war activism was just more of the same.
BTW, if he wasn't a candidate for CIC on the first beachheads of a 30 or 40 year war it probably wouldn't be an issue sans the self-promotion. He sure as hell would have been a better socialist president than Clinton but in times of war he's not our choice. Rhetoric aside, what we're about is the quest for Truth and believe doing so, given the consequences, is warranted.
More to come in a day or so. This was just crib notes. |
The goals here were twisted before I ever arrived on the scene.
I stood at that news conference and heard them say they didn't come to disparage his service in Vietnam, but had a problem with what he did after the war. Then they did exactly that -- disparage his service in Vietnam -- again and again. The same has been done here to a degree.
I do my best to stick to the truth. I have disparaged no one, regardless of the many baseless claims tossed in my direction.
Doug |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 5:25 am Post subject: |
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| DougReese wrote: | | ASPB wrote: | | DougReese wrote: | | ASPB wrote: |
Why do you doubt that it even happened? Are you so blinded by ideology that you can't accept that Kerry just might be an arrogant elitist that looks down his roman nose on the plebians? Maybe it's like Abu Ghraib and you'll require photograhic evidence.
Sampley is clearly an extremist, but if you're to believe the press he's an honorable Vet just as your claim that Kerry is. How can you call Kerry's service honorable and not say the same of Sampley? Two full tours trump 4 months and 13 days in my book.
And how do you know that Kerry was filmed the entire time he was there?
I guess that's just another example of ideological faith. From what I hear most cameramen would rather film their feet than film Kerry.
ASPB |
No, I am not blinded by ideology. I just know Sampley.
Where did I ever say Sampley's service wasn't honorable? I have said no such thing. Get Bandit to pull up my "thousands" of posts over on the newsgroup alt.war.vietnam, some of which are between myself and Sampley. As far as that goes, between many of the guys over there and Sampley. Nowhere will you find his service being disparaged. And on that newsgroup, which has a heck of a lot of vets who feel like many of you do about Kerry, you will not find a single vet who . . . . . how do I put this . . . . a single vet who would believe anything Sampley says regarding McCain, Kerry or the POW/MIA issue.
Go over there now and you will see some comments about not believing it happened due to the source(s).
How do I know he was filmed? Because I saw some of the footage, and because there were literally close to a thousand people down there. Filmed the entire time? Yes, either by the network film crew and/or by many of the tourists.
Doug |
Actually Doug,
The concept of honorable service is one I'm writing a piece on based, in part, on some of your comments. It includes the question of the motive of the founders of this forum in questioning Kerry's character. You've twisted our goal into a question of Mr. Kerry's honorable service which it's not. We're not questioning that his service was "honorable" but that his "combat record" may have been the result of his all consuming self-promotion at any cost; including "our" honor.
It's one thing to serve honorably without concern for recognition and another to promote yourself as a "patriotic war hero" in the quest for power after having trashed fellow vets immediately after the war.
In sum, U.S. Navy Combat Vets from Vietnam believe that there are reasonable questions as to whether his "combat record" is the result of self-promotion and that his anti-war activism was just more of the same.
BTW, if he wasn't a candidate for CIC on the first beachheads of a 30 or 40 year war it probably wouldn't be an issue sans the self-promotion. He sure as hell would have been a better socialist president than Clinton but in times of war he's not our choice. Rhetoric aside, what we're about is the quest for Truth and believe doing so, given the consequences, is warranted.
More to come in a day or so. This was just crib notes. |
The goals here were twisted before I ever arrived on the scene.
I stood at that news conference and heard them say they didn't come to disparage his service in Vietnam, but had a problem with what he did after the war. Then they did exactly that -- disparage his service in Vietnam -- again and again. The same has been done here to a degree.
I do my best to stick to the truth. I have disparaged no one, regardless of the many baseless claims tossed in my direction.
Doug |
I saw the broadcast of the press conference. Maybe I'm biased, but I didn't hear attacks on "honor" but only some with regard to his "combat record" and the possibility that he was "dificult to manage" and "self-promoting". On the latter point the first PH comes to mind. I'd like to know what the EM in the Whaler with him that night have to say today. I'd also really like to know who wrote the recommendation for the SS and who the signatory witnesses were. Rasman's recommendation for the Bronze seems valid but what Kerry did was expected and not necessarily rewarded in the MRF where I served. Obviously PH's 2 & 3 seem legit albeit for no more than scratches that most of us on the boats in the MRF ignored and that's a fact; not BS.
I have some lingering questions about the FITREPS but that's no more than trying to get a better handle on his character and motivations at the time.
As I've said, I have questions about his actual combat service but will save disparagement until I can put my hands on more facts. I'd really like the opportunity to talk to Hibbard and Elliot without press trolls around but that probably will never happen even though I'm working on it thru some Swiftie friends.
I've been on this hunt for about 4 months and still don't have the answers I'd like re the 4 months and 13 days. Are they important? Probably only to OINC's on Swifts and MRF boats like myself.
Wintersoldier and the "war hero" campaign that he's waging are enough to turn me off. Hell, even Wintersoldier and silence on Nam would have let me and most of the guys here give him a "pass" on the 68 to 72 period. |
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Craig
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 5:36 am Post subject: |
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"Yet, McCain categorizes me as "one of the most despicable people" he "ever had the misfortune to encounter?" What does that say about his relationship with the Vietnamese prison guards whom he claims brutally tortured him daily?"
Better yet - what does this say of McCains opinion of the bloodsucking Ted Sampley?
I had even remarked a few times that at least this group had not descended to the depths of associating with Sampley. - Not it seems that some would descend to the bottom and dig under it in the pursuit of vilification. |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Craig wrote: |
"Yet, McCain categorizes me as "one of the most despicable people" he "ever had the misfortune to encounter?" What does that say about his relationship with the Vietnamese prison guards whom he claims brutally tortured him daily?"
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McCain, like many of the other POWs, only had a real problem with a few prison guards, believe it or not. Most were just doing their job (Strange, I know, but I've heard this from over a dozen former POWs) -- With some guards it was clear that what they were doing was distasteful to them.
Then there was those few -- that's who McCain was referring to when he used the term "gooks" back around 2000 in an interview. The POWs I know reserve their everlasting hatred for that handful of guards you'd have to say were sadistic in nature. The "Bug", the "Rabbitt", are two names that come to mind (the POWs had nicknames for the guards, and vice versa), but I believe there were 4-5 total.
Next time you see footage of the POWs being released, and departing from Gia Lam Airport in Hanoi -- take a close look as each POW's name is called out, and he steps forward to salute/shake hands with an American officer before getting on the plane. Take a close look at the Vietnamese "official" that's reading off the names in the background.
Specifically, look at his ears, and see if you can guess who he is.
Doug |
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