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azpatriot
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 20 Aug 2004
Posts: 593
Location: Arizona
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 Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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I can here it already 
CBS: Wait! the Pentagon can't be right! we ...we... we... have an expert! And .... and.... and... they just have an extra wall!
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Proud to be an American! and member of the PAJAMAHADEEN 
FedEx Kinko's: When it absolutely, positively has to be forged overnight  |
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You GottaBeKidding
Rear Admiral
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 692
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| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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If the Pentagon's on it, you can bet that they've got a stable of highly-qualifed experts on it.
Yeee haaaaaa! |
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kmmpatriot
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 146
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| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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Only problem with this is that Bouffard is now telling indcjournal that the Globe misrepresented what he said! Does this just keep gettting better or what??? I am having trouble keeping up...
http://www.indcjournal.com/archives/000859.php
~Kylie
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The Wise man draws more Advantage from his Enemies, than the Fool from his Friends. - from Poor Richard's Almanac...and a perfect commentary on the current state of this campaign! |
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air_vet
PO2
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 374
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| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 5:36 pm Post subject: Some "expert" |
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I can't believe any "expert" would "certify" ANYTHING about a multi-generation copy of a copy.
Without the ORIGINAL documents, such "testimony" isn't worth the paper the it's written on. |
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BC
PO3
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 288
Location: Oklahoma City
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Nomorelies
Vice Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 977
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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You will not believe the idiotic response given by Marcel Matley (the handwriting expert) I just copied this part of the trranscript from Drudge
| Quote: | Matley "SINCE IT IS REPRESENTED THAT SOME OF THEM ARE DEFINITELY HIS... THEN WE CAN CONCLUDE THEY ARE HIS SIGNATURES."
Rather: "ARE YOU SURPRISED THAT QUESTIONS COME ABOUT THESE. WE'RE NOT, BUT I WAS WONDERING IF YOU'RE SURPRISED."
Matley: "I KNEW GOING IN THAT THIS WAS DYNAMITE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER AND I KNEW THAT POTENTIALLY IT WAS FAR MORE POTENTIAL DAMAGE TO ME PROFESSIONALLY THAN BENEFIT ME. AND I KNEW THAT. BUT WE SEEK THE TRUTH. THAT'S WHAT WE DO. YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO PUT YOURSELF OUT. TO SEEK THE TRUTH AND TAKE WHAT COMES FROM IT."
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This man is a boob. I recommend everyone contact Marcel Matley at his email address. He must be exposed for what he is... incompetent.
Demand that he publish a retracrtion. Email Marcel Matley at
mmatley@aol.com
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azpatriot
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 20 Aug 2004
Posts: 593
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Nomorelies wrote: |
This man is a boob. I recommend everyone contact Marcel Matley at his email address. He must be exposed for what he is... incompetent.
Demand that he publish a retracrtion. Email Marcel Matley at
mmatley@aol.com |
Boy did you hit the nail on the head! Here is a supposed professional and he's using AOL for his email. BOOB is a understatment 
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Proud to be an American! and member of the PAJAMAHADEEN
FedEx Kinko's: When it absolutely, positively has to be forged overnight |
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lrb111
Captain
Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 508
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| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Nomorelies wrote: | You will not believe the idiotic response given by Marcel Matley (the handwriting expert) I just copied this part of the trranscript from Drudge
| Quote: | Matley "SINCE IT IS REPRESENTED THAT SOME OF THEM ARE DEFINITELY HIS... THEN WE CAN CONCLUDE THEY ARE HIS SIGNATURES."
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He certified forgeries from forgeries. 
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said Democratic Chairman Terry McAuliffe. "It is inexcusable to mock service and sacrifice."
well, when even the DNC can see it,,,,, then kerry is toast. |
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Nomorelies
Vice Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 977
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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Marcel Matley obviously takes glee in working with the wrong side. Here is an exerpt from an article:
http://fennel.assumption.edu/~guest/view/1996/View0396.htm
| Quote: | Then the program turned to Marcel Matley, identified as a "handwriting examiner" with no further credentials given, who offered his opinion that the "suicide" note is genuine. Matley believes that the "deteriorated copy" of the note.... that is, it's been copied over too many times.... and the "stress" Foster was presumably under account for the differences in handwriting. He then went on to show how Foster used different styles of letters in the genuine samples, such as both cursive and block letter "s", for example, and how the same multiple styles appear in the note; and from this he concluded that the same person wrote both the note and the samples known to be genuine.
One problem with Matley's statements is that it is impossible to determine to what extent the copy of the "suicide" note used by the experts has deteriorated from the original.... because the government has yet to release any official copy of the original, much less a high-resolution one. I just don't see how Matley can point out examples of "deterioration" in copies of the note without having seen the original note. |
It's deja vu all over again.
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Aristotle The Hun
PO1
Joined: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 488
Location: Naples FL
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| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Nathanyl wrote: | | From Fox - Pentagon sources are saying they think the docs are fake. |
Can you tell us more?
Sam
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Deportè Monsieur Kerrè |
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FireFox
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 11 Sep 2004
Posts: 84
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| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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I can't get to that site right now but I did read the manual and it certainly is a very difficult thing to use. There is no superscript support but it did have very fine up and down control. But you'd have to change the type ball to switch font sizes. Not something that you'd use in a memo.
Pouffard said it's possible. I wanted a proof with mathematical certitude that it is impossible; not just illogical.
| vet_supporter wrote: | This site has why it would be illogical that the selectric composer would have ever been used.
http://www.donaldsensing.com/2004/09/ibm-introduced-proportional-spacing.html
| Quote: | It is 100% mechanical and has no digital electronics. Since it has no memory, the user was required to type everything twice.
...When you're ready to retype the document, you set this dial to the appropriate color/number combination before typing each line. The Composer will automatically insert the right amount of space between words to make the line lengths equal on all lines. |
So, no one in their right mind would try to type a memo or even a routine letter on such an inefficient machine. Also, since Killian didn't type, it's unlikely that he could use such a complex machine as he'd have no use to be trained on it. It was marketed to make camera ready text, not as a typewriter. |
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You GottaBeKidding
Rear Admiral
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 692
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| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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I heard the same thing a few minutes ago, but there were no details. The reporter (Wendell Goller, I think, but I wasn't really paying that much attention) said that at least three experts at the Pentagon think the documents are fake.
Would like to hear what they are experts in. |
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FireFox
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 11 Sep 2004
Posts: 84
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| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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Justification is not the same thing as proportional spacing. Justification is where you fill the line so that the characters on the right line up as in newspaper column print.
So justification would look something
like this. The rain in Spain falls mainly
on the plain. Today is September 10,
2004. Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.
You have no new messages.
| Nathanyl wrote: | I don't remember seeing this link before. If it's here somewhere I apologize:
http://www.ibmcomposer.org/
Basically there's no way in heaven that a man who was not a typist would have touched one of these monsters and there's no way that one would have been used by the TANG for regular clerical work. Yes you can do proportional typing and right justification with it if your willing to type the whole document twice including having to to type in a code at the end of each line during the first typing like so:
The ability to justify copy easily and quickly is one o-1
of the distinct advantages of your new Composer. By b-2
merely typing copy once, taking a reading from the o-2
Justification window, then setting the Justification g-1
The code at the end of the line is from a little measuring bar on the composer. It's color coded. Check the link for more details.
So in reality using this composer model to type those memo's Killian would have had to first write it out in longhand, then type it once using the codes system for right justification and then type it again exactly the same in order to get the final copy. No way. I'd bet everything I own on him not having done that.
As for the superscripting I'm still looking. The manual for the typesetting machine (IBM did not consider this a typewriter) mentions 3 different elements besides the standard one. A greek element, a technical element, and a mathmatical element. From what I could see the technical and mathmatical element combined could be used to superscript numbers but there's nothing mentioned about doing the same with letters. It's possible of course they came out with one before 1972 and I'm still researching that.
In 1967 IBM did come out with an upgraded model, here's the discription of it:
In 1967, IBM announced the IBM Magnetic Tape Selectric Composer. Documents could be typed and recorded on magnetic tape, and then later played back justified. At the same time, IBM was producing the IBM Magnetic Tape Selectric Typewriter, one of the earliest attempts at turning the regular Selectric typewriter into a word processor. The Tape Selectric units could be used to record raw text onto magnetic tape, after which the tape could be played back in the IBM Magnetic Tape Composer for justification. The Magnetic Tape Selectric Composer is often referred to as the IBM MT/SC.
I can't see how this would've been in a TANG office and even if by chance there was one it wouldn't have been used for normal documents.
There were 2 other versions of the Composer that came out. One in 1975 and another in 1978. You can see pictures and explanation of those models on the site.
My conclusion assuming the that the superscripting could be done (and I'm still not convinced that's the case) is although it would be theoretically possible to do the proportional typing, based on what equipment would have been needed, the time and work involved, and the fact that Lt. Col. Killian didn't routinely type those document were typed on a computer and NOT on a composer.
Please check out the link and see if you can find anything I missed.
Bill Hershey
ASA all the way!
1973-1976 |
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Debs
Lieutenant
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 228
Location: Lubbock, Texas
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| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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I think the Pentagon should be on this and maybe so should the Killian family. If these are "personal files" of Mr. Killians, then, as someone pointed out, these memos are property of the family. And if they are official "personnel files" then they are property of the government and the Pentagon should have them. I wonder if the family could sue CBS to get the originals? And, also these memos are really in a way somewhat defamatory of Mr. Killian, and it appears the family is very upset about all of this. Personally, I think the family might consider suing.
Debbie
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"No greater love..." |
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You GottaBeKidding
Rear Admiral
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 692
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| Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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Someone named Barbara (on Fox, 2:40 p.m.) is saying that the evidence indicates that the memos are forgeries.
She's calling it the CBS version of Jayson (sp?) Blair.
She's obvously a Republican.
The Leslie person is claiming the Swiftboats don't have evidence. |
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