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Wynne Lieutenant
Joined: 19 Sep 2004 Posts: 228
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Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2004 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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I've only had time today to review the first 40 minutes of the tape from watching it on FOX. So far all I have seen is kerry taking a white paper out of his jacket pocket with his left hand while his back is turned to the mod and audience, putting it on the lectern and unfolding it, out of sight of the mod and audience because the lectern hides that action from them. He picks up the pen provided, which looks to be a white Bic with a black cap, takes the cap off and uses it throughout the 40 minutes I have seen so far. No black pen yet.
Other posters have seen him use that black pen though but so far none of us have seen him remove it as Brit showed in the still -- or have we? (I'm getting a little mixed up reading all the posts here -- forgive me). Kudos to Kimberly and everyone working on this. I do not think it is a small thing -- getting to the truth is never a small thing. It is irritating that Brit chose to show a still when he could have showed the tape and stopped it at the time of the 'pen caper'. Why didn't he?
One thing I know, kerry did not remove a thin black pen from his jacket before the debate started. It was something white and looked like a paper. _________________ TRUTH IS ALWAYS THE VICTOR |
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ord33 Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 670 Location: Ohio
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Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:07 am Post subject: |
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dmackto,
Thanks, I'll give that a shot!
The hard part is getting it from my DVD-R to my computer because my laptop doesnt recognize the DVD-R format of my DVD Recorder when I put it in the drive. |
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hanna Rear Admiral
Joined: 07 Aug 2004 Posts: 701
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hanna Rear Admiral
Joined: 07 Aug 2004 Posts: 701
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kimberly PO2
Joined: 03 Sep 2004 Posts: 377
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Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 5:25 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Hanna, I have gone to their site and read through the conversation. It seems that most everyone there agrees that Kerry, by slight of hand, had a piece of paper hidden in one hand, while reaching for the black pen with the other.
It's a different variation of the 'cheat' theme. I'm not sure that I can clearly see the 'hidden' paper they are referring to, but I'm sure that I saw him reach into his pocket (at that point) and remove the paper, not a pen. According to azpatriot's review of the tape, Kerry reached into his pocket a second time about 30 plus minutes into the video and took out the black pen. Until that time, he used a white pen that was provided.
I guess the difference is, they are still focusing on the beginning of the tape, looking for both the white paper and the pen....while we seem to be looking at the beginning ONLY for the white paper with the removal of the black pen 30 minutes later. They have focused on him reaching into his breast pocket (1) time, in the beginning, while we have discovered that he reached into his pocket (2) times, once in the beginning for the paper and later for the pen. I believe that the still shot used on Brit's show is from the second time he reached and did remove the black pen.
-Can someone verify, at least from our perspective of what happened, that I'm thinking through this clearly?
-ALSO, since I am unable to review any of the footage, would it be fair to say that the best and clearest view of the entire debate would be a home vcr type video of 'live' debate, regardless of source?
-azpatriot has a 'live' Fox version on tape, I think some here have the podium view, but are you watching it on an internet version? Does anyone have the cspan version on video tape?
I know my technical terms aren't the best, but I hope you catch my meaning.
Thank you
Kimberly |
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hanna Rear Admiral
Joined: 07 Aug 2004 Posts: 701
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Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 5:43 am Post subject: |
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There are people that have both versions on about every medium you can imagine. We are in process of trying to get 1st generation video. There is also a forensic guy that is willing to work on it, so hang in there......tee hee, should I say this.....Help is on the way....LOL LOL........PUKE. |
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kimberly PO2
Joined: 03 Sep 2004 Posts: 377
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Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 5:43 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Wynne"]I've only had time today to review the first 40 minutes of the tape from watching it on FOX. So far all I have seen is kerry taking a white paper out of his jacket pocket with his left hand while his back is turned to the mod and audience, putting it on the lectern and unfolding it, out of sight of the mod and audience because the lectern hides that action from them. He picks up the pen provided, which looks to be a white Bic with a black cap, takes the cap off and uses it throughout the 40 minutes I have seen so far. No black pen yet.
I just don't think you've gotten to the point in the video where Kerry reaches into his pocket for the second time and pulls out that black pen. Can you watch it a little further and see if you can see the same thing that azpatriot saw. This is key: it would explain the still shot of Kerry grabbing that pen, except it did not happen at the beginning of the debate, but later
Other posters have seen him use that black pen though but so far none of us have seen him remove it as Brit showed in the still -- or have we? (I'm getting a little mixed up reading all the posts here -- forgive me). Kudos to Kimberly and everyone working on this. I do not think it is a small thing -- getting to the truth is never a small thing. It is irritating that Brit chose to show a still when he could have showed the tape and stopped it at the time of the 'pen caper'. Why didn't he?
I think, and someone should say if I'm wrong here, alot of the confusion seems to be coming from varying 'version's and footage that may or may not be being viewed very clearly or being 'enhanced' on the internet.
One thing I know, kerry did not remove a thin black pen from his jacket before the debate started. It was something white and looked like a paper.
Thanks Wynne, (forgive the color, I do not know how to post replys to individual paragraphs without using this method;) Can anyone verify that I am 'seeing' this clearly? Thank you again Wynne!
Kimberly |
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kimberly PO2
Joined: 03 Sep 2004 Posts: 377
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Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 5:57 am Post subject: |
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hanna wrote: | There are people that have both versions on about every medium you can imagine. We are in process of trying to get 1st generation video. There is also a forensic guy that is willing to work on it, so hang in there......tee hee, should I say this.....Help is on the way....LOL LOL........PUKE. |
Wow Hanna, that would be greaat. Here's to hoping that someone has a very clear, '1st generation video' that will show Kerry reaching for the PAPER the first time and then 30or so minutes later, reaching a second time for the pen. If we can capture the same still from any version of him taking out the pen later in the debate then this would have to be addressed with Fox new.
If it can be proved, then Fox new's still photo of Kerry taking out the pen was NOT from the beginning of the debate, but Kerry reaching for a second time to take out the pen at about 30 minutes into the debate.
OR, 'someone' simply provided Fox with the still, told them it was from the footage at the beginning of the debate instead of footage from 30 min into the debate and Fox just assume it was true.
Anyone, please verify or clarify;0)
Kimberly |
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dmackto Rear Admiral
Joined: 03 Sep 2004 Posts: 719 Location: Florida
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Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 6:06 am Post subject: |
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brought up color contrast and saturation + increased size by 50%
[/img] _________________ Deborah
The FROZEN CHICKEN Journal
This is no time for ease and comfort. It is the time to dare and endure.
- Winston Churchill |
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eXcel Seaman
Joined: 23 Aug 2004 Posts: 174
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Fort Campbell Vice Admiral
Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 896
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Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:35 am Post subject: |
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Yes, there are. Edwards absenteeism from the Senate and Kerry's voting record head the list. |
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kimberly PO2
Joined: 03 Sep 2004 Posts: 377
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Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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Excel, I have both read/scanned through the posts on the link you provided. Can you please give me the post number that provides information that would refute what we have been discussing? I have read through what the folks on that site have been speculating about, but it is not the same as the information we have discovered, unless I missed some specific evidence that indicates otherwise. I appreciate your post as I have asked and welcomed any information I can find.
I too agree that there are bigger issues, however, my concern is more than just the possibility of Kerry having 'cheated' but also the possibility that Bush saw and realized what had happened, became distracted and angry about it, thus affecting his performance and the outcome of the debate. This is purely speculation and we will never know the truth on it, but suppose it is true. The outcome had a very real affect on declaring a winner and could have affected undecided voters as Bush's performance was less than it should have been. I would not expect the Bush camp to address this, but I believe the public should, even if it takes time. Also, if it is true, the public needs to know, in my opinion the kind of person Kerry is and what lengths he will go to today to achieve his political agenda. I have and continue to support the Swiftboat claims, but I am constantly bombarded with statements about it being something that happened 35 years ago and accused of not giving him the benefit of having changed.
I know I'm just rambling on here....I just felt at the moment like stating, more for myself than any other reason, where I am coming from. Am I out of line or being unreasonable. Please let me know. I came here for help because I realize that there are many others who are so much more wise and experienced at this sort of thing. So, if I'm way off base, I do need to know.
I would like to continue to pursue this matter from the angle I have stated in the thread, unless there is something you've read that will refute it. Please know that I am not prepared to put forth any further claims until we have considered all aspects. The bloggers, I believe, are embarassed because of the previous accusations being so quickly dismissed and jokes made even on late night tv. On their sites they seem almost apologetic. So, if there is a case to be made, it must be made with great consideration. But, there are too many of us, I think, even on the link you posted, who are not satisfied with the DNC's explanation of the incident.
I would appreciate any help you can provide, but if you decide it's time to move on, I can understand your position as well.
Thanks for your help!
Kimberly |
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ArmybratNavywife Ensign
Joined: 12 Sep 2004 Posts: 54
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Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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I'm watching the podium watch video on cspan. At about 5:17 he picks up the white pen and starts writing with it..he puts it down right away and at 5:25 he picks up the black pen , uncaps it , and begins writing with it.
Is it possible he had a pocket protector in his pocket and when he reaches in we see a flash of white?
I hope someone can analyze the video so we can be positive about what is in both of his hands. |
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kimberly PO2
Joined: 03 Sep 2004 Posts: 377
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Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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ArmybratNavywife wrote: | I'm watching the podium watch video on cspan. At about 5:17 he picks up the white pen and starts writing with it..he puts it down right away and at 5:25 he picks up the black pen , uncaps it , and begins writing with it.
Is it possible he had a pocket protector in his pocket and when he reaches in we see a flash of white?
I hope someone can analyze the video so we can be positive about what is in both of his hands. |
There seems to be a difference in the podium watch on the internet and the video tape of the fox news 'live' coverage.
Can you please watch the podium watch for 30 to 45 minutes. On the fox tape Kerry reaches into his pocket a second time to retrieve the black pen. Will you let me know if you can see that happening on the podium watch video.
Thank you,
Kimberly |
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ArmybratNavywife Ensign
Joined: 12 Sep 2004 Posts: 54
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Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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Ok..just watched the first 45 minutes.
At about 7 minutes I start seeing a glare on the black pen and then it looks white. I don't really see him switching pens so I started looking at the big picture and am thinking that the lights on Kerry were different than the lights on Bush. 1. The background is slightly different. 2. the wood podium on Bush's side is warmer looking. 3. Kerry's American Flag pin is almost always just a glare while with Bush's you can make out the red and blue. Was this to prevent Kerry from looking orange?
So I'm not convinced that he switched back to the white pen. I think he continued to use the black pen but there was such a glare on it that it looked white. That is what I see from the cspan video.
At 36:26 it looks like Kerry puts his hand in his pants pocket. He never reaches back into his coat pocket in the first 45 minutes. |
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