SwiftVets.com

[Anker-Klanker]

Bump. Added to previous comment above significant new information about the author of the article and the author of the book he used as his source.

[Rurik]

Wouldn't it be interesting to investigate Professor Lembke and discover whether his vietnam service might also be another urban myth? I know ther were some actual Vietnam vets in VVAW, but there were just as many "army surplus store vets".

And I am pretty confident that no fantasy vet was ever actually spit upon.

C'mon Jerry, let's see your DD214 and SF180.
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Hating John Kerry continuously since 1971.

Essayons!
Fight Build and Destroy

[dcornutt]

I don't think "spitting" was a widespread occurance. But, it "did" happen at some of the organized protest gatherings at places like airports, port terminals..etc.. Not only that, but throwing things at them, etc. There is film of it..because I remember seeing it when it happened. News footage.

I was well aware of it...

I was young at the time. But, I will tell you some of the things I witnessed myself. First, it was QUITE easy to pick out a marine, etc..fresh from the Nam, even dressed up in the latest civies. That wasn't a hard thing to do. They stuck out like a sore thumb in the fashions of the day.

The kind of thing they might get would range from ...a young girl ..walking up to you, smiling, handing you a flower and just saying peace and walking off. To, a quick retort yelled across the street...ie..NO WAR..etc..etc. Or some chant. To the more vile and disgusting subvertive type....ie...you walk into a bookstore...go to pay out, and the person behind the counter without looking up at you says...so...how does it feel to kill babies? etc. or something of that nature. It DID happen and it was very real. It was every range of things and it covered a wide spectrum.

I personally witnessed 3 marines in a bar...take on about 7 guys..because of something whispered into his ear. The Marine immediately jumped up..and WHAMO...and the other 2 marines followed like lightening. They mopped the bar with these guys. The 3 marines sat back down at the bar...a little bloodied..and the bar tender refreshed their drinks. And 2 other patrons there who had witnessed this...including one old man, got up..walked over to the bar..and put money down on it and told the bar tender...their drinks are on me. Nodded to the Marines..and went and sat back down as the bar tender cleaned up the place. He never called the cops. The Marines got good and drunk..and they paid for them cab.

Those were the kind of things I witnessed myself. They didn't have a lot of "large" demonstrations where I lived. It was fairly conservative town. But, we had a small gatherings of such behavior...and I remember them well. I remember what they said and what they did. I remember the propeganda they circulated in school. And I personally witnessed some of the things I described above. It too was a wide range. There were very well dressed students..who protested only the war itself (nothing else). And then there were very vile demonstrations of behavior who spoke about "attrocities" that took on much more of a socialist/communist tone..etc. It was the entire range of things.

It's true I believe..that such "spitting" and extreme examples...were not commonly widespread or everyday occurances. I don't think that changed the nature of their message..of the people were speaking of. Think of it this way...racism. If racists were out yelling racial slurs, carrying racists signs...would the fact that only a "few" of them spit on people...make them "not" racists or somehow transform their protests message in someway historically? I don't think so.

Yes, it happened. And it's probably true it wasn't very widespread or "common". But, it happened enough...I can tell you that. I saw a few "baby killer" signs in my day. I was in the book store that day..when the women said that to that marine. That Marine..was my cousin.

[integritycounts]

I believe the source of the actual "spitting" was Vets being returned to the San Francisco Airport after their discharge.

As they walked out into the world again....in uniform....they were greeted by all sorts of folks....in SF they were not welcomed even by anyone really....and a few hippie types were going to either mutter, yell, challenge...or whatever the soldiers. I am nearly certain this made the press in San Francisco.

What Kerry did was give these people the green light. He gave them justification to hold their beliefs...and their beliefs were not based in reality...they were based upon the opertunistic lies of Kerry.

Its not a myth...the Flower Power people yelled at Soldiers if nothing else just to get a story to tell their friends.

What is also a common mistake is that the San Franciso Airport is in San Francisco...its not....its actually in San Bruno. Also returned to city where the SFO airport were veterans to the Golden Gate National Cemetery located in San Bruno too


And Yes Kerry did the most to create the image of the Brutal war Criminal soldier....for which he has never apologized. Swift Vets work should not end IMHO....until Kerry finally acknowledges his mistakes.....
I say mistakes because I give up on him saying he lied....but he needs to admit what he did was a mistake, because he never ever saw any war crimes...which he contends he did, to this day.

[Anker-Klanker]

I believe the consensus is clearly that there were such spitting incidents, and that the worst of such incidents were in, or near, the San Francisco area. (And I clearly remember my return with my wife to SF from Hawaii about that time, and the hostile crowd that was gathered around the gate at Travis AFB - in the middle of the night, no less.)

What disturbs me about the lead-in posting is that we have a college professor at Wake Forest writing an article that clearly is designed to refute such incidents by suggesting that they are merely urban legend. Do you think that it was just a coincidence of timing that he should light on that subject and publish it when it became clear that the SBVPT campaign was being talked about as being effective in Kerry's defeat? He, himself, is destroying his own credibility by declaring himself to be an urban legend expert witness, and by pointing to his only source of truth to a book written by another college professor, this one with obviously dubious credentials.

Now let me point you to Jerry Lembcke, professor of sociology at Holy Cross University - a former (at least) VVAW (hence among sKerry's old 'band of brothers"), and an avowed socialist. BTW he also wrote "Recapturing Marxism: An Appraisal of Recent Trends in Sociological Theory" ($92.95 at Amazon) and "Capitalist Development and Class Capacities: Marxist Theory and Union Organization" ($81.95 at Amazon). But Mr. Lembcke would have us believe "the only documented incidents show members of the VFW and American Legion spitting on their less successful Vietnam peers." Betcha didn't know that all those anti-war protesters at SF airport, and in and around SF, were VFW and American Legion members!

So when was this book written? Back in the 70s? Nope. 1998! It's getting relatively good reviews (from like-minded idiots) at the Amazon.com site today.

So what disturbs me is how these people have come out of the woodwork only very recently, and begun revising history to suit their own purposes, precisely when we're in a war that many compare to Vietnam, and right after the Swiftboat Vets and their name and cause become a household word. The issue is not to me whether spitting incidents occurred or not; it's the fact that we're seeing the same people, behind the same causes, using the same tactics, and that they are attempting to change the truth (and some people are believing them).

[firstsgtmike]

I'm a firm believer that ******** walks when money talks.

How much is he willing to put up. I'll see that it is matched.

I'll accompany him, and we will get statements from retired baggage handlers. security guards, cab drivers, concession employees, and anyone else that spent time in SFX during the late 60's and 70's.

Tell him that I am retired, and living better than he is, because of two previous bets that I won.

How much does he think his word is worth? Would he risk a nickle of his own money? How about two cents?

I expect to hear a motor boat from him; "but,but,but,but,but,but,but,but.
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Mike Farrell
First Sergeant of Marines
Retired and Reincarnated in the Philippines

[I B Squidly]

On the otherhand I happily recall an event in an Ohio college bar in the Fall of 71.

I knew the two diminutive orientals were ROKs but five white, burly members of the football squad thought they'ld have 'fun' with a couple of 'g**ks'.

After a blur of feet and fists three of those footballers went to the hospital and none played again that season.

Gotta love it!

[GoophyDog]

I'll set it straight. I was spit upon in San Francisco. Not at the airport but downtown, not more than three blocks from the Presidio.

That was in 1976!

About four years later, in SeaTac airport, I was called a baby killer.

Urban myth? Not on your life.
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Why ask? Because it needs asking.

[DougReese]

I didn't know anyone who had been spit on until we had a discussion about this in an internet group a few years back. When I see that the book you're talking about was published in 1998, I seem to remember the discussion was prompted by that book.

Out of perhaps 20 or so of us, one was spat on. Of the others, a couple had heard of it happening to someone else.

Doug

[Tom Poole]

[Guest]

[jwb7605]

Does having eggs dropped on you as you were standing in "Parade Formation" on a carrier leaving the States for Vietnam (with the usual stops in Hawaii, then Subic Bay) while sailing under the Golden Gate bridge by 'protesters' count?

We must have made fine targets ... I don't think anybody got hit directly, though.

[LewWaters]

Like I said earlier, the "spitting" wasn't always literal.

My first trip "home" went smooth, until the plane landed in St. Louis for a connecting flight. I had gotten on the plane before the people that sat next to me, a young lady, maybe in her mid twenties or so and her daughter.

We talked about general stuff and I played games with the little girl. Since I had my jacket off, I guess she must have thought I was some young business dude with short hair and a skinny tie and very tanned.

After the plane landed, I reached under my seat and recovered my jacket and put it on. A look of near stark terror came over her face as she literally snatched her little girl yelling, "get away from that baby killer." She then ran out of the plane as everyone else left onboard just looked.

I quietly just walked to my other flight and went home.
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Clark County Conservative

[army72]

I wonder if Lemke took part in that anti-war effort outside of US bases?

It would be interesting to see if he also attended the same meetings where thye VVAW talked about killing a few Senators.
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Hillary and Kerry in '08? Something smells!!

[coldwarvet]

Spitting on returning veterans is a myth. I suspect the same author probably believes that the 1971 Kerry testimony was based in fact. The author probably also is looking past all the accomplishments of this generation of troops while focusing on the gotcha stories. Those of us on this forum need to stand up to the wrongful depictions of those who have served and those who are now serving.

CWV
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