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Robert Cooper Lt.Jg.
Joined: 06 Aug 2004 Posts: 134 Location: Tulsa, OK
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Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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I recall Thurlow on one of the radio talk shows say that when the mine was detonated, all the Swift boats (except Kerry) automatically opened fire at the banks as a matter of procedure because it was typical of the enemy to wage small arm at times when swift boats are vulnerable due to distraction and slow down attempts to rescue - he further w ent on to say, that once they were convinced that there was no incoming fire, they ceased fire.
I speculate that Rassman, coming to the surface of the water - Kerry long gone - hears fire and instinctively resubmerges assuming the presence of enemy fire and continues this ducking until he doesn't hear fire anymore.
I further speculate that Kerry, quite embarassed having lost Rassman in his sudden retreat, offered an excuse to Rassman of his actions - an excuse that probably involved a claim that he had received enemy fire during the short time that the Swiftboats were firing at the banks - all Rassman knew is that he was dunked, heard fire and was glad to be out of that water. _________________ Know the difference between Politics and Mesmeratics - one embraces, propagates and promotes the truth, while the other manipulates it! |
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Harley90 Seaman Recruit
Joined: 23 Aug 2004 Posts: 26
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Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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A career military man, Lambert is no fan of Kerry's either. He doesn't like Kerry's post-Vietnam anti-war activity and doesn't plan to vote for him.
"I don't like the man himself," Lambert said, "but I think what happened happened, and he was there."
A March 1969 Navy report located by The Associated Press this week supports Lambert's version. The report twice mentions the incident and both times calls it "an enemy initiated firefight" that included automatic weapons fire and underwater mines used against a group of five boats that included Kerry's.
Kerry's Bronze Star was awarded for his pulling Special Forces Lt. Jim Rassmann, who had been blown off the boat, out of the river. Rassmann, who is retired and lives in Florence, Ore., has said repeatedly that the boats were under fire, as have other witnesses. Lambert didn't see that rescue because Kerry was farther down the river and "I was busy pulling my own boat officer (Thurlow) out of the water."
Thurlow could not be reached for comment about Lambert's recollections.
But speaking for the Swift Boat Veterans group, Van Odell, who was in the task force that day, remembers it differently from Lambert.
"When they're firing, you can hear the rounds hit the boat or buzz by your head. There was none of that," he said in a telephone interview from Katy, Texas, where he lives.
On Thursday, the group released a 30-second Internet ad disputing Kerry's contention that his swift boat crossed into Cambodia. Kerry's campaign has acknowledged that he may not have been in Cambodia on Christmas Eve of 1968, as he has previously stated, but that he does recall being on patrol along the Cambodia-Vietnam border on that date.
Lambert said the swift boats were on their way out of the river when a mine exploded under one, PCF-3.
"When they blew the 3-boat, everyone opened up on the banks with everything they had," he said. "That was the normal procedure. When they came after you, they came after you. Somebody on shore blew that mine."
"There was always a firefight" after a mine detonation, he said.
"Kerry was out in front of us, on down the river. He had to come back up the river to get to us."
Lambert retired in 1978 as a chief petty officer with 22 years of service and three tours in Vietnam. He does not remember ever meeting Kerry. |
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Harley90 Seaman Recruit
Joined: 23 Aug 2004 Posts: 26
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Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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I understand what Kerry did when he got back to the states in '71 as you can read the whole report on line.
Double edged sword here....
He also was co-founder of the VVA (Viet Nam Veterans of America)
Asked for input on this before..... |
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baldeagl PO3
Joined: 07 Aug 2004 Posts: 260 Location: Texas
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Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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Harley90 wrote: | A career military man, Lambert is no fan of Kerry's either. He doesn't like Kerry's post-Vietnam anti-war activity and doesn't plan to vote for him.
"I don't like the man himself," Lambert said, "but I think what happened happened, and he was there."
A March 1969 Navy report located by The Associated Press this week supports Lambert's version. The report twice mentions the incident and both times calls it "an enemy initiated firefight" that included automatic weapons fire and underwater mines used against a group of five boats that included Kerry's. |
That report is meaningless. It has to be based upon Kerry's version of the facts since he, and only he, wrote an after action report. Outside of the men who were there, no one can really know what went on. All other reports would be based upon the AAR. That's why, for example, John O'Neill was willing to stand up for Kerry as recently as 1996. They simply didn't know what Kerry's version was until Tour of Duty was published.
Quote: | Kerry's Bronze Star was awarded for his pulling Special Forces Lt. Jim Rassmann, who had been blown off the boat, out of the river. Rassmann, who is retired and lives in Florence, Ore., has said repeatedly that the boats were under fire, as have other witnesses. Lambert didn't see that rescue because Kerry was farther down the river and "I was busy pulling my own boat officer (Thurlow) out of the water." |
If Rassmann was "farther down the river" then how could Rassmann have known what was going on back at the scene of the mine explosion? I'll answer that - he couldn't. Furthermore, he could not have been blown off or fallen off of Kerry's boat at the momen of the explosion, because if he had Lambert could have seen him.
Therefore, PCF 94 must have hit something downstream, after they left the scene (I've seen a cogent argument that it was some sort of underwater obstruction, and the damage report for PCF 94 supports that view IMO.)
Quote: | Thurlow could not be reached for comment about Lambert's recollections.
But speaking for the Swift Boat Veterans group, Van Odell, who was in the task force that day, remembers it differently from Lambert.
"When they're firing, you can hear the rounds hit the boat or buzz by your head. There was none of that," he said in a telephone interview from Katy, Texas, where he lives. |
And Odell was in the best position to observe what was going on. Lambert was in the pilot house, steering the boat, when the 3 boat lliterally went airborne right in front of him. How much attention do you think he would have been paying to enemy fire?
Quote: | On Thursday, the group released a 30-second Internet ad disputing Kerry's contention that his swift boat crossed into Cambodia. Kerry's campaign has acknowledged that he may not have been in Cambodia on Christmas Eve of 1968, as he has previously stated, but that he does recall being on patrol along the Cambodia-Vietnam border on that date. |
Yeah, that duck has been dead for a while now.
Quote: | Lambert said the swift boats were on their way out of the river when a mine exploded under one, PCF-3.
"When they blew the 3-boat, everyone opened up on the banks with everything they had," he said. "That was the normal procedure. When they came after you, they came after you. Somebody on shore blew that mine."
"There was always a firefight" after a mine detonation, he said.
"Kerry was out in front of us, on down the river. He had to come back up the river to get to us."[ |
What Lambert is telling you is 1) there was only one mine - confirms the Swiftvets' version 2) He was expecting fire from the banks - not surprising that he would "think", "believe" or have "the impression" (his words) that there was 3) Kerry's boat left the scene - confirms the Swiftvets' version and is now admitted to by Kerry
Quote: | Lambert retired in 1978 as a chief petty officer with 22 years of service and three tours in Vietnam. He does not remember ever meeting Kerry. |
And I have no doubt that Lambert is telling exactly what he remembers. His "version" confirms important details of the Swiftvets' version and does not help Kerry's version at all. _________________ antimedia
USN OST-6 68-74
http://antimedia.blogspot.com/ |
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baldeagl PO3
Joined: 07 Aug 2004 Posts: 260 Location: Texas
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Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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Harley90 wrote: | I understand what Kerry did when he got back to the states in '71 as you can read the whole report on line.
Double edged sword here....
He also was co-founder of the VVA (Viet Nam Veterans of America)
Asked for input on this before..... |
No, he was co-founder of Vietnam Veterans Against the War - VVAW, not VVA. _________________ antimedia
USN OST-6 68-74
http://antimedia.blogspot.com/ |
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Jack Mclaughlin PO3
Joined: 13 May 2004 Posts: 280
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Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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When our reps. appear on talk shows their message for this incident should be simple and short and it should be the following: If we were receiving sustained fire from both banks and they couldn`t hit one of the 5 50ft. boats, nor any of the 30 crew members or special forces people they must have been the most incompetent enemy we ever faced. But they were not, they killed 58,000 of our guys. Also as I understand it a search of the banks after the incident, little evidence of spent shell casings were found. |
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jataylor11 Vice Admiral
Joined: 10 Aug 2004 Posts: 856 Location: Woodbridge, Virginia
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Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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That's an excellent analysis. Are there "Navy documents" that would detail the search of the banks after the incident?
Who could obtain such documents. Are they at the Navy Yards Archieves @ Anacostia? |
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Harley90 Seaman Recruit
Joined: 23 Aug 2004 Posts: 26
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Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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[No, he was co-founder of Vietnam Veterans Against the War - VVAW, not VVA.[/quote]
Actually....he was co-founder of the VVA. (Vietnam Veterans of America)
http//www.vva.com
Vietnam Veterans of America (VVA) has received an assortment of e-mails which (1) incorrectly assume VVA has endorsed Senator John Kerry for President; or (2) criticize Senator Kerry for his involvement with antiwar activities after he served in Vietnam; or (3) incorrectly assume that Bobby Muller, the President of a different organization (Vietnam Veterans of America Foundation), is the President of VVA. In response to all such e-mails, VVA says:
1. VVA's Constitution prohibits it from endorsing any candidate for any elected office. Article IV, Section 3. E. of the VVA Constitution clearly says that "[a] member, Chapter, State Council, or the Corporation [VVA] may not endorse, on behalf of the Chapter, State Council, or the Corporation, any candidate for any elected office or position."
2. John Kerry was a co-founder of VVA in 1979 and he is a life member of VVA.
3. Bobby Muller is not the President of VVA and he does not speak for VVA. Bobby Muller is the President of the Vietnam Veterans of America Foundation, which is a separate corporation with a separate board of directors and with separate funding sources. Vietnam Veterans of America Foundation is not a membership organization like VVA.
do your homework |
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4moreyears Former Member
Joined: 08 Aug 2004 Posts: 591
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Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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Jack Mclaughlin wrote: | ...If we were receiving sustained fire from both banks and they couldn`t hit one of the 5 50ft. boats, nor any of the 30 crew members or special forces people they must have been the most incompetent enemy we ever faced.... Also as I understand it a search of the banks after the incident, little evidence of spent shell casings were found. |
kerry wrote in his journal an explanation of that event. Mysteriously it sounds like the scene from "Apocalypse Now" where the PCF comes under arrow attack...I imagine kerry's magic hat had a toy arrow stuck in it. Almost another PH. _________________
kerry returned to the United States on July 22, 1971, held a press conference publicly calling on President Nixon... for the surrender of the United States to North Vietnam. |
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jrsdad Lt.Jg.
Joined: 20 Aug 2004 Posts: 118
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Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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carpro wrote: | gkdechow wrote: | This was also the time Kerry "fall down bump his arm" which if there was actually any enemy fire might make Kerry's last Purple Heart sort of technecally legal. |
Not at all GK. A contusion is still a bruise. No man I ever met or served with would even consider applying for let alone accepting a PH for a bruise. |
I believe that the regs require medical treatment for a PH, correct? So even if a bruise (minor) is acquired under enemy fire it would not qualify. That's why Kerry included the shrapnel wound, also while not taking enemy fire. |
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Putt4eagle Seaman Recruit
Joined: 25 Aug 2004 Posts: 5
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Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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Can someone tell me how long it would take one of these boats at full speed to go 5000m or 3.1 miles down river and then return. It has been posted earlier in this thread that it would take 10 minutes. That seems a bit short to me but what do I know.
I think it is a relative point because it apprears to me as if JK bugged out leaving his fellow vets in what he called a hot zone. That in itself doesn't sound very 'Bronze Star worthy'. But beyond that it seems, and by his own admission, that he only return after he realized MSF Rassman was in the water. Although he tells a different story it also appears as if he only returned AFTER whatever fire there may have been coming from the banks had ended.
My gut is telling me that his return to the area was due to some type of self-preservation. I would imagine that his CO would not be too happy had he returned to base without a MSF advisor that left in his care. Especially since he bolted the area when the heat was on.
Anyway, how long would it take to get 3.1 miles down river, turn and come back?
Thanks _________________ Thanks to all our brave Vets. |
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Jack Mclaughlin PO3
Joined: 13 May 2004 Posts: 280
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Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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Back to " no empty shell casings found on banks " my notes indicate Larry Thurlow, on one of his MSNBC appearances said that a special forces search immediately after the incident found no evidence of Viet Cong or enemy presence. |
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jrsdad Lt.Jg.
Joined: 20 Aug 2004 Posts: 118
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Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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Jack Mclaughlin wrote: | Back to " no empty shell casings found on banks " my notes indicate Larry Thurlow, on one of his MSNBC appearances said that a special forces search immediately after the incident found no evidence of Viet Cong or enemy presence. |
This would fit with what I read somewhere that the intel report said that the mine was detonated by a "VC sympathizer". |
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NavyChief Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Aug 2004 Posts: 627 Location: Boise, Idaho
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Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Sandusky, Kerry's pilot (do Swiftees say pilot or boat driver?) that day, OUTED KERRY when he explained WHY Kerry's boat was the only one to leave. |
Pilot is official. Driver - helmsman - boat driver - chofuer... got lots of names.
Quote: | I actually believe Sandusky. But that sure doesn't excuse Kerry lying about the other boats, accusing them of what HE DID (even IF for good reasons.) |
Sandusky is a fellow Chief so it pains me to say this. The eyewitness account on Sandusky's recommendation for Kerry's BS was inflated and flat wrong. I don't know if Kerry coerced him or if Sandusky took it upon himself, or the facts were lost in fog of war or what. There is no way Sandusky could have "witnessed" Rassmann getting "knocked off" the boat by a close aboard mine exploding. Sandusky was in the pilot house driving. Rassman was mid-aft at least, starboard side. Kerry had to be standing to the right of Sandusky at the time of the explosion to be knocked into the bulkhead and injuring his right forearm, thus blocking Sandusky's view of anything to his right and especially behind the pilot house. Also, Kerry was the one that told the medical officer that a mine had exploded close aboard his boat causing his shrapnel wound to his butt. Again I find this hard to believe since Kerry was inside the pilot house and the shrapnel somehow, magically found its way into the pilot house, beyond Sandusky and any equipment a zapped Kerry in the butt. Note that the damage report to Kerry's boat mentioned NO SHRAPNEL DAMAGE to it. Surely a mine would have shredded a portion of Kerry's boat? It was made of aluminum wasn't it?
Sorry, don't buy it. Kerry told Sandusky to say a mine exploded near their boat to cover their hides. Sandusky thought a grenade or B-40 was the cause of the explosions. Well, which is it? Why didn't he say that back in March 1969 when he "witnessed" the events in Kerry's write up? Why didn't Sandusky mention anything about shrapnel. Surely shrapnel in the butt would have caught his notice more than a contusion to the right forearm (minor - according to medical).
It's COLLUSION, and I don't like it
- instigator _________________ Working with Senator Kerry four years in the POW/MIA Office left me thinking -- when did the man ever do any work? |
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NavyChief Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Aug 2004 Posts: 627 Location: Boise, Idaho
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Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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Jack Mclaughlin wrote: | Back to " no empty shell casings found on banks " my notes indicate Larry Thurlow, on one of his MSNBC appearances said that a special forces search immediately after the incident found no evidence of Viet Cong or enemy presence. |
After spotter aircraft went into the area - after boats cleared area - RF/PF fired 4.2 Heavy Mortar. Secondary explosion vicinity WQ 010782. 1 detainee held by Army advisors CAI NUOC.
- instigator _________________ Working with Senator Kerry four years in the POW/MIA Office left me thinking -- when did the man ever do any work? |
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