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FreeFall
LCDR
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 421
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FreeFall
LCDR
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
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cipher
Vice Admiral
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 902
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 Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:11 am Post subject: |
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That article IS exactly why there is this "looking for PROOF". That Kerry said he wrote SOME of the reports does NOT mean he admits he wrote THAT report. That Thurlow says Kerry wrote the report does not PROVE that he did.
The whole basis of whether or not there was incoming fire that day is predicated on WHO wrote the report. Kerry said there was incoming fire because the REPORT says so, despite what Thurlow (and others) say. That Kerry WROTE the official record has been a bone of contention, because there are so many people who were there that say it never happened.
Everyone points to the report and says "SEE? It says so right here!"
And Kerry is the only one (along with a handful of his employees who are backing his claim) that says there was incoming fire.
Without incoming fire, there is no Purple Heart, and strains the credulity of the BSM(V) being awarded for pulling a guy up out of the river who fell overboard by accident.
_________________
USMC 69-72, 7th Comm, 3rd MarDiv, FMFPAC
US Army 75-79, 97th Sig, SHAPE, NATO
Arkansas National Guard 79
Defense contractor for US Navy, SSPO, SP-20, SP-24, OP-12 84-92 |
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igor
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 81
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:17 am Post subject: |
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from http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5797082/ talking about the Rassmann "rescue"...
| Quote: |
BUCHANAN: ... But let‘s bring in John Hurley who has been an adviser to John Kerry. And John, you were a veteran of Vietnam yourself, right?
JOHN HURLEY, VIETNAM VETERANS FOR JOHN KERRY: That‘s correct Pat. I‘m an army veteran, served in Vietnam from 1967 to 1968, also in the Mekong Delta.
...
GARDNER: You‘ve got it slightly wrong, only in the fact that the documents that we‘re talking about are the documents that John Kerry himself wrote.
...
HURLEY: Joe, you like common sense, so I‘m going to deal in common sense. Common sense says that in 1969 every single document that the Navy has and created then supports John Kerry‘s version of events. The after action report—the after action report...
(CROSSTALK)
SCARBOROUGH: Steve, hold on, hold on. Steve, we‘re going to have to go to a break soon, but I just ask, we‘re going to do this one at a time. We‘re not going to have a screaming, yelling debate. With 30 seconds to break, John Hurley. Then we‘ll get you on the other side. Go ahead.
HURLEY: Thank you. The after action report that Steve Gardner refers to was not written by John Kerry. All right? End of discussion on the after action report. The Bronze Star citation...
GARDNER: That‘s a lie. |
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Becky
Seaman
Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 179
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:20 am Post subject: |
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| cipher wrote: | The difference is that in your quoted example, the ALLEGATION is made that Kerry sent the report.
What the chief has established is the PROOF it was Kerry that sent it.
Kerry is the SOURCE of the "Official Navy Record" for his own actions. So the argument that Kerry is right because the Official Records are right is based on the premise that Kerry was right.
He wrote his own history, and it is cited as proof he's right. A recursive argument. |
Unbelievable! (mouth hanging open) Great job, Chief...boy, I
like it when you start posting...something jaw breaking always
comes of it...
_________________
“In the beginning of a change the patriot is a
scarce man, and brave, and hated and
scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid
join him, for then it costs nothing to be a
patriot.”
- Mark Twain |
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NavyChief
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 627
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:21 am Post subject: |
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| FredRum wrote: | I'm probably missing some nuances, but isn't that similar to what it says in the page I linked to above? (bold mine):
Kerry's Spot Report was sent 5 hours and 20 minutes aft [b]The Spot Report was sent at 11:20 p.m. when most others from the mission were probably exhausted and already asleep. It has already been established that not a single officer from the other boats had collaborated this report. All of the wounded Sailors had been seen by medical personnel and their casualty messages were sent in the 11:00 p.m. hour to higher commands, except John F. Kerry. He was seen by medical personnel the following day and his message was sent to higher commands 24 hours after the mine incident. Kerry himself wrote in his Spot Report that he was part of the Wounded In Action. He wrote his wounds as LTJG John F. Kerry, USNR, SHRAPNEL wound left buttock and contusion right forearm (minor). The casualty message sent the next day (Essential documentation for Purple Heart) reads, "LTJG Kerry suffered SHRAPNEL wounds in his left buttocks and contusions on his right forearm when a mine detonated close aboard PCF-94". This was no mistake. John Kerry had to tell the medical officer how he received his wounds. How could the medical officer know what happened? John Kerry put the words wounded when a mine detonated close aboard his boat in the medical officer's report.
(edited to enlarge the font size - thanks - EJ) |
Sorry,
This was my ealier post from days gone by. Much more has been learned and my analysis changed to reflect this.
Glad you captured that earlier one.
I would add/change the Washtenaw picture to say (picture taken circa 1968).
Also, the sequence of events after the mine blew up under PCF-3 and Kerry picked Rassman out of the water -- Kerry hopped into Jack Chenoweth's Boat (PCF-23) and was dropped off at the USCGC SPENCER for medical treatment. We now know Kerry was seen at 1900 on the SPENCER and then spent the night there. The wounded were medevac'd and Kerry wrote the report and sent it from the SPENCER and then went beddie bye. Thurlow returned to the LST way before Kerry did and made a report (voice/radio) to LCDR Elliott in An Thoi and then went and crashed. Remember these guys were up since about 0300 in the morning on 13 Mar. Their mission didn't end until 1800 and Thurlow was exhausted. Plus he got bounced around trying to save PCF-3 (thrown from the boat when it hit a sandbar, then tried to swim against a 3-4 knot current).
- Chief
Last edited by NavyChief on Fri Oct 01, 2004 7:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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NavyChief
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 627
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:37 am Post subject: |
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I've finally figured this one out with a lot of research on the traffic. What you are seeing on Kerry's website are the messages which were archived from COMNAVFORV files. The initials KJW, PDJ, RAP, and WAS are all Communications Watch Officers at Phu Lam. Phu Lam was the communications center outside Saigon that handled a ton of messages every day. Once the messages were pulled from the printer, the operator would type a Time of Receipt line (TOR), followed by the Date, Time Group / operator's opsign, followed by the CWO's intials. This was a tracking mechanism to ensure the messages weren't lost or missed. If a message was missed, then the radio operators could go back and request a resend.
Unfortunately I spent a lot of time on those intials and they turned out to be irrelevant to the authorship of the reports.
- Chief |
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hanna
Rear Admiral
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 701
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 3:46 am Post subject: |
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Sometimes we have to spin our wheels so we can dig a hole and find the snake in the bottom.
Great job Chief:) |
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ord33
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 670
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 4:02 am Post subject: |
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| NavyChief wrote: | Also, remember that his after action report did not say that a mine exploded close aboard Kerry's boat and caused shrapnel in his butt. The first time this was mentioned was in Kerry's casualty report filed the next day at An Thoi. The next time the story is told of a second mine is in Sandusky's recommendation for Kerry's Bronze Star. But, Sandusky fails to mention that the second mine wounded Kerry with shrapnel in the butt -- only the right arm.
- Chief |
IMO, this is extremely important, as it shows Kerry's determination to receive purple hearts. Surely, if there had been a SECOND mine explosion sustaining injuries, it would have been written in the After-Action Report (the mine under PCF-3 was certainly mentioned). The second mine was not included in the AAR except "after boats had cleared", so IMO he had to "invent" a reason (mine explosion) later as to why he deserved the PH instead of fragging himself with the rice/grenade (self-inflicted with no enemy fire). |
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Stevie
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 1451
Location: Queen Creek, Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 4:15 am Post subject: |
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Wow! you guys are great! kerry in deep do-do !
_________________
Stevie
Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage
morale and undermine the military are saboteurs and should
be arrested, exiled or hanged. |
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igor
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 81
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 4:19 am Post subject: |
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from http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13267-2004Aug18.html
| Quote: | | Thurlow and other anti-Kerry veterans have repeatedly alleged that Kerry was the author of an after-action report that described how his boat came under enemy fire. Kerry campaign researchers dispute that assertion, and there is no convincing documentary evidence to settle the argument. |
from http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=4834
| Quote: | | Kerry's campaign spokesman, Michael Meehan, declined to speak to HUMAN EVENTS, but in the Washington Post report of August 19 Kerry campaign researchers disputed the contention of Thurlow, Chenoweth and Pees that Kerry wrote the after-action report that Thurlow, Chenoweth and Pees insist is false. |
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NavyChief
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 627
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 4:25 am Post subject: |
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| igor wrote: | from http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13267-2004Aug18.html
| Quote: | | Thurlow and other anti-Kerry veterans have repeatedly alleged that Kerry was the author of an after-action report that described how his boat came under enemy fire. Kerry campaign researchers dispute that assertion, and there is no convincing documentary evidence to settle the argument. |
from http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=4834
| Quote: | | Kerry's campaign spokesman, Michael Meehan, declined to speak to HUMAN EVENTS, but in the Washington Post report of August 19 Kerry campaign researchers disputed the contention of Thurlow, Chenoweth and Pees that Kerry wrote the after-action report that Thurlow, Chenoweth and Pees insist is false. |
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Igor,
Keep um coming. I'm gathering a list of the Kerryites that have come out and said Kerry didn't write the report. This is going to knock their credibility into the dirt -- not to mention make a not so nice day for Kerry 
- Chief |
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Becky
Seaman
Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 179
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 4:26 am Post subject: |
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| igor wrote: | from http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13267-2004Aug18.html
| Quote: | (snip) Kerry campaign researchers dispute that assertion, and there is no convincing documentary evidence to settle the argument.(snip)
Kerry campaign researchers disputed the contention of Thurlow, Chenoweth and Pees that Kerry wrote the after-action report that Thurlow, Chenoweth and Pees insist is false. |
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Oh! My, my, my, my...Chief...they just didn't count on you!
_________________
“In the beginning of a change the patriot is a
scarce man, and brave, and hated and
scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid
join him, for then it costs nothing to be a
patriot.”
- Mark Twain |
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igor
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 81
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homesteader
PO3
Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 294
Location: wisconsin
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 5:02 am Post subject: |
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How is all this now presented for the most impact?
Remember Napolean's corporal? (Napolean had him read everything he wrote. If the corporal could not understand it, Napolean would rewrite it.)
I sat at dinner tonight explaining all the details to my parents (no Kerry fans they). Their eyes glazed over. The I said "Kerry claims his medals are legit. because the Navy says so. SVBT say he wrote the reports for the Navy and now they have proof." That registered.
There will be many who want the details but the impact will come from headlines and announcements and talk show repetitions of simply......
KERRY WROTE THE REPORTS FOR HIS OWN PHs AND MEDALS. Over the years he probably also (re)wrote the commendations and citations. That angle can be pursued but for now simply blast it loud.....KERRY WROTE THE REPORTS.
Last edited by homesteader on Sun Sep 26, 2004 5:19 am; edited 1 time in total |
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