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NavyChief
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 627
Location: Boise, Idaho
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 Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Given that Thurlow does not admit to sending the after action report and that Kerry does admit, round about, to sending some, if not this one, how would you counter that TE was not a typo missing the C? Who ascertains that it was a TE and not the CTE who made out the report? What is the significance of the line following "Market Time":
1. (U) CTE 194.5.4.4
Have any of the individuals listed in the casualty list made any statements on these events? |
Thurlow did not send this report as evidenced by the Title Line in the SPOT REPORT. MARKET TIME SPOT REPORT 13/1/TE 194.5.4.4/1
Thurlow was the CTE, not the TE. You may have to read my previous post again to understand the difference between OTC and other OINCs on the same mission.
As to the typo - do we need to hire document authenticators? Sounds like the Rather-gate is going to be used by the Dems to counter this attack.
Michael Dobbs also assumed that the 5000 meters written in the report was a typo and went with 500 meters. On what basis? Because it sounded better? Looking at the documents, neither 5000 meters nor TE were typos.
I see I'm going to have to write a "How to read SPOT REPORTS".
This report was finished draft and handed to the radiomen on the LST at 2320 on 13 March 1969. For Thurlow, he was up before 0300 on the 13th getting the mission ready. Do you believe Thurlow was still the author of this report? After the day he had? Thurlow reached the LST at 1800 on the 13th, made his report to An Thoi of what happened via voice/radio -- grabbed chow -- and hit the rack. Kerry reached the LST at 1800 (on Jack Chenoweth's boat PCF-23), dropped off the dead NUNG and MSF Advisor --was taken to USCGC SPENCER for medical treatment along with other wounded already there -- was seen by doctor at 1900 -- was then sent back to LST with wounded for MEDEVAC -- after wounded were MEDEVAC, Kerry finished the SPOT REPORT after the men were MEDEVAC and their message went out at 2300 - 2306. Kerry's report went out approximately 20 minutes later -- then Kerry hit the sack.
Paragraph (1) is the OTC of the mission: CTE 194.5.4.4
This new numbering system was set up by CTF 115 Market Time Surveillance OPORDER 69. I just got off the phone with the man himself. This OPORDER established the new numbering system and who had command of the missions. CTE was the OTC and TE were the other boats on the mission.
- Chief |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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As Thurlow was CTE 194.5.4.4/1 I agree that he did not author the CAAR sent at 2330. Someone else wrote the report for the TE.
However, how do we know for sure it was Kerry? How are we going about eliminating Chenowith (PCF-23) and Droz (PCF-43) as the author of the TE CAAR? We know Pees was medevaced so it wasn't him.
Chenowith can testify, Droz can't. Don't tell me we have another Lt. Col Killian! 
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rikkoshay
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 37
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rikkoshay
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| NavyChief wrote: |
Also, the sequence of events after the mine blew up under PCF-3 and Kerry picked Rassman out of the water -- Kerry hopped into Jack Chenoweth's Boat (PCF-23) and was dropped off at the USCGC SPENCER for medical treatment. We now know Kerry was seen at 1900 on the SPENCER and then returned to the LST with the wounded. The wounded were medevac'd and Kerry wrote the report and sent it from the LST and then went beddie bye. Thurlow returned to the LST way before Kerry did and made a report (voice/radio) to LCDR Elliot in An Thoi and then went and crashed. Remember these guys were up since about 0300 in the morning on 13 Mar. Their mission didn't end until 1800 and Thurlow was exhausted. Plus he got bounced around trying to save PCF-3 (thrown from the boat when it hit a sandbar, then tried to swim against a 3-4 knot current).
- Chief |
| NavyChief wrote: |
Kerry and Thurlow spent the night on the LST where the message came from. We know from Kerry's medical letter from his doctor that Kerry was treated on the SPENCER at 1900 that night. This was an hour after the mission ended. We also know that the author didn't release this message until the disposition of the wounded in the report had been made and they were medevac'd to unknown location. Kerry returned to the LST after the SPENCER with the wounded because the SPENCER didn't have a helo pad (old WWII ship). The LST could handle two Helo's at the same time and that is where the wounded were medevac'd from. Now note the time that all the wounded reports went out, except Kerry's from the SPENCER (routing indicator RHMCSAA). They all went out within five minutes of each other in the 2300 hour. Kerry's report went out 20 minutes later from the LST. |
| cipher wrote: | | I'd say this is pretty conclusive, given that only TWO people could have sent the MTSR, and they both had different designators. If Thurlow had written it, it would have been CTE. However, since it wasn't, the ONLY other person it could have been was Kerry for it to be sent from that location. |
Hmm, I may have been wrong.... The above threads were where I got that thought from, but in rereading them I'm not sure. Do we know where Chenowith and Droz actually bedded down? On the LST also or the Spencer or ??
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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The Spencer did not have quarters for boat crews. They either racked out on their boats or in quarters that were reserved for them on the LST.
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NavyChief
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 627
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 1:00 am Post subject: |
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Okay,
one step forward, two steps back.
The latest revelation only shows that Thurlow (OTC) did not write the AAR for 13 MAR 69.
Thurlow, Chenoweth, Droz, and Kerry all spent the night on the LST. So this is complicated.
But, Thurlow swears he didn't write the report.
Chenoweth swears he didn't write the report.
This leaves Kerry and Droz. Kerry was senior to Droz by almost 3 months in country...
Kerry has not come out and denied that he wrote the report -- only his minions.
Still looking at more traffic, but it appears Kerry was also on the 12 March action and that AAR is almost identical in format and word usage.
More to follow...
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gia_lin_fo
Ensign
Joined: 20 Aug 2004
Posts: 66
Location: Franklin, TN
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 1:04 am Post subject: |
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| NavyChief wrote: | As to the typo - ... nor TE were typos.
- Chief |
I base my question of typo on how badly fouled up Pees name was on page 2 among other obvious typos.
This document is the result of a secure electronic transmission from the LST to headquarters. An operator on the LST must have typed it in, I doubt the CTE or TE did it. Mistakes get made. My question comes back to how the CTE and TE were identified as such? Did the operator make the id or was it on the form the operator read the info from? Did Kerry sign it TE, why not CTE, not like him to slip up and incriminate himself?
Speculating, and fearing move to scuttlebutt, I think Kerry knew that Thurlow had a good laugh with Elliot on how Kerry got that wound in the ass and wanted to make sure there was a record of his version.
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Reg
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 2:02 am Post subject: |
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Has anyone read the new paperback edition of Brinkley's "Tour of Duty"?
Why is this relevant?
Well, there looks to be a new introduction to the book written by Brinkley on July 13, 2004 and in that introduction he quotes a long passage from Kerry's war diary on the 13 March incident. Its a quote I have never seen before. Perhaps others have?
Roughly from memory the passage mentions:
1. An explosion near the 94 boat
2. Rassman under hostile fire in the water
3. The 94 boat returning from several hundred yards away to pick up Rassman.
4. Kerry thinking he is going to get shot while picking up Rassman.
For those of you are researching this issue I suggest you analyze this diary quote. |
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cipher
Vice Admiral
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 902
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 2:10 am Post subject: |
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The technical name for this is "Revisionist History"
The new introduction was added to "front load" the events to be highlighted in the "No Man Left Behind" DNC convention (which was 27-31 July).
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USMC 69-72, 7th Comm, 3rd MarDiv, FMFPAC
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Arkansas National Guard 79
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Reg
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| cipher wrote: | | The technical name for this is "Revisionist History". |
Heh.
Perhaps "revisionist" is the proper term Cipher. My point was forget Brinkley's bias we have a new piece of testimony/evidence that was recorded roughly(?) near the event in question and the identity of the source of evidence (Kerry) is NOT in question (unless you assume the quote was faked--which I don't think is a reasonable assumption).
I've not concentrated on the 13 March incident. I'm a "Kerry'n Cambodia" dabbler. But I would be interested in an analysis of the following?
1. Does it match or contradict the AAR's? Is the wording/language similar?
2. Is it plausible? Does it make sense given the context of what we know happened? Example could one see bullets hitting the water from several hundred yards away etc...
OT Request:
Finally, Navy Chief or anyone else: has anyone seen a PCF-44 AAR from COSDIV-13 during Dec. 1968? There must have been one for the enemy contact X-mas eve 1968... but I've seen nothing. The latest archive set seems to deal only with COSDIV-11 during 1969.
I'm still interested in finding out how far upriver from Sa Dec the 44 boat reached. |
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RMalloy
PO3
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 280
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:39 am Post subject: |
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Kerry's Tour of Duty has a sleight of hand over PH #3
He does a connect the dots that doesn't work -
I | Quote: | don't if this relates to who wrote the AAReports but on page 289, the
last day of Feb. 1969
It says "Lt. Kerry was put in tactical command of the high-risk operation to deliver the Ruff Puffs plus a handful of U.S. explosive experts to a designated spot along the Dong Cung River" |
Could he still have been designated tactical command March 13?
Kerry admits on Page 313 "I got a piece of small grenade in my ass
from one of the rice-bin explosions"
later on Page 314 according to Kerry after a 2nd mine explodes near his
boat he "smashed his arm" and Rassman was blown off PCF-35
On page 317 - Kerry recieves treatment for his "wound" on a Coast Guard
Cutter, has a slight concussion, "also had bits of shrapnel and rice extracted from his backside"
Here is where the magic occurs: on page 321
"Four days after taking his third hit of shrapnel, the commander (kerry) put in for a transfer out of Vietnam under the instruction that allowed thrice-wounded active-duty personnel to request reassignment"
Why he won't release the 180 -
PH #1 small sliver of metal removed with tweezers
PH#2 shrapnel, still in leg, never will know how big it was, will we?
PH#3 Shrapnel from grenade incident, no action at the time, or is it
the gash to the forearm, which is not "shrapnel" that Kerry says was
his third time for shrapnel, so time to go home. |
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J. Toy
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 96
Location: Pa.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:57 am Post subject: |
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Kerry admits on Page 313 "I got a piece of small grenade in my a**
from one of the rice-bin explosions"
(quote from previous post from "Tour of Duty"
I've not read the book, but if this is true, then he couldn't have gotten the legendary shrapnel in his ass from the alleged mine explosion sourced from his bronze star citation.
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RMalloy
PO3
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 280
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 4:11 am Post subject: |
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on page 317 - a copy of the Bronze Star citation that "Admiral Zumwalt
himself"
Remember when "fours after taking his third hit the commander put in for
a transfer" - the PH rule - does this mean March 17th?
On Page 318:
"Commander of Coastal Division 11, Charles F. Horne, recommended him for the Bronze Star on March 23, he pointed out that the twenty-five
year old lt. (j.g.) had previously earned two Purple Hearts and the Silver
Star."
So in the book, the commander (Kerry?) put for a transfer using 3 PH
rule, four days after the March 13 incident? Does anyone the date of
the citation? Yet, on March 23, Horne mentions just two PH's -
What's up with that? A request for transfer before the third PH came through? |
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Beatrice1000
Resource Specialist
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 1179
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 4:35 am Post subject: |
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| Reg wrote: | | ..has anyone seen a PCF-44 AAR from COSDIV-13 during Dec. 1968? |
I see references to Div 13 about the first injury, but on the Change of Duty form it says: "You reported to Commander Coastal Squad One for duty to Coastal Div. Fourteen in Cam Rahn Bay ... this date." Form is dated 11/17/68.
Then at the top of the Fitness Report for the "date reported 11/17/68," it says "Coastal Division Fourteen." The period covered by this report is: 11/8/68 to 12/6/68. It is signed by Hibbard--dated Dec 17, 1968 - And on the 2nd page, all he says is "the short period LtJG Kerry was attached to Coastal Div 14 prevents further evaluation."
The next report indicates Div 11 -- so I don't see where 13 came in?
Last edited by Beatrice1000 on Mon Sep 27, 2004 4:49 am; edited 2 times in total |
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cipher
Vice Admiral
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 902
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 4:42 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | ... has a slight concussion... |
Don't you mean "contusion"? He got a BRUISE on his arm, there was no gash, there was no blood.
Although, there are accounts where Kerry has blood running down his arm as he drags Rassmann aboard, that is unsupported by the CAR. I don't recall any mention of a concussion to Kerry.
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USMC 69-72, 7th Comm, 3rd MarDiv, FMFPAC
US Army 75-79, 97th Sig, SHAPE, NATO
Arkansas National Guard 79
Defense contractor for US Navy, SSPO, SP-20, SP-24, OP-12 84-92 |
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