SwiftVets.com

[SBD]

[Rdtf]

That's great research - you're onto something.
SBD - make sure an PM Navy Chief about this so he sees it

[fortdixlover]

[stcromwell99]

Would be most helpful to have links to all those citations and letters posted in the beginning of the thread. Makes for a more authentic post. (Even if you have to make scans of them and post them.)

[coldwarvet]

[Hondo]

Hate to be the skeptic again, but I don't think that Kerry had his discharge upgraded under the Ford program.

From reading the Ford program proclamations at the beginning of the thread, the program appears to be strictly limited to deserters and draft dogers only.

We know Kerry was not a draft doger. He also was not a deserter from active duty. The only possibility left would be desertion from the reserves.

Desertion from the active duty component is difficult enough to prove. Proving desertion from the Individual Ready Reserve - which I believe was Kerry's status between January 1970 and sometime in 1972, and which I believe did not require drilling - would have been virtually impossible. Moreover, he obviously was still on the rolls of the USNR in early/mid-1972, when he was transferred to the Standby Reserve.

However, there is a alternate possibility that just might be plausible.

Known Facts:
a. Kerry was on active duty in October 1969.
b. 15 October 1969 was a Wednesday - a normal duty day.
c. 15 October 1969 appears to be the day that Kerry piloted Walinsky et al to anti-war activities.
d. According to Kerry's leave records, he was not on leave on 15 October 1969. If he was not on pass or otherwise excused from duty, he would have been required to be at his place of duty.
e. The statute of limitations for AWOL and Failure to Repair in the late 1960s/early 1970s was 3 years.

Hypothesis:
a. Kerry was not on leave, pass, or otherwise excused from duty on Wednesday, 15 October 1969.
b. Kerry nevertheless "skated out" without authority to pilot Walinsky et al to antiwar activities on this date. (Maybe he called in falsely claiming to have a civilian medical or other appointment and was told "take care of it and get here as soon as you can" or something similar.)
c. The fact that Kerry "skated out" of duty on 15 October 1969 was not known to the Navy when Kerry left active duty.
d. Sometime in late 1971 or early 1972, some USNR official with the proverbial hard0n for antiwar protesters gets word of Kerry's 15 October 1969 actions. He "connects the dots" regarding Kerry's piloting on 15 October 1969 and no leave taken for that day.
e. The matter is turned over to NCIS. They confirm (possibly with info from the FBI) that Kerry did indeed pilot Walinsky et al to antiwar activities on 15 Oct 1969 and was indeed absent from duty without authority when he did so.
f. Charges for "failure to repair" are sworn prior to 14 October 1972.
g. Kerry is confronted and threatened with involuntary return to active duty and court-martial. He decides not to risk a felony conviction (which would likely end his plans of a law degree and a future political career) and resigns in lieu of court-martial instead. At the time, I believe he'd have received an "undesirable" discharge for resignation in lieu of court-martial. I believe he would have also had to sign paperwork acknowledging the conduct leading to the discharge (current OTH discharge procedures require the individual accepting the OTH discharge in lieu of court-martial do do this).
h. Kerry then later applies under the Carter program for discharge review, receiving a discharge upgrade.

Given the inane hue and cry raised about Bush and his last year in the guard, if this is true the irony would be wonderful: Kerry receiving an undesirable discharge for BEING ABSENT FROM HIS ASSIGNED PLACE OF DUTY.

I'm not convinced this happened - but I'm not convinced it DIDN'T happen, either.

Comments?
_________________
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war, is worse."
-- John Stuart Mill

[NavyChief]

Guys and gals. Please give me some time on this. There are other things happening behind the scenes on this.

I promise that Tom Lipscomb and I will give you another piece of this puzzle and hopefully the final piece.

I just need your patience Easier said than done, right?

Thanks,

- Chief
_________________
Working with Senator Kerry four years in the POW/MIA Office left me thinking -- when did the man ever do any work?

[Bystander]

By CTW:

'Who are the children mentioned?'

From what I recall, the Hart's had a couple of kids. One of the sons was involved in a minor scandal--don't remember right now if it was drugs or DWI. Senior moments keep creeping up on me.

It was right around this time that I finally realized I was voting for the wrong party and switched my allegiance to conservative causes.
_________________
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
..................................Eleanor Roosevelt

[Hondo]

Keep at it, Chief. We all owe you.

Next time I'm in San Antonio dinner's on me, mi amigo.
_________________
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war, is worse."
-- John Stuart Mill

[Aristotle The Hun]

Hondo,

You keep us all honest.

Be careful! You know what happened to Socrates. Folks just couldn't stand that much truth.

Sam
_________________
Deportè Monsieur Kerrè

[Sgt-Keeper]

Ok, I don't get it.
If Ford gave the clemency, then what is this letter from Carter's Sec. of the Navy doing on Kerry's web site? Why did Carter have to get involved?

Among Kerry's released records is a 1977 cover letter from Jimmy Carter's Navy Secretary, W. Graham Claytor. What is revealing about this document is that it notes Kerry's original discharge was subject to review by a "board of officers" -- yet no such review should be necessary for an Honorable Discharge.
Isn't his "published web site" discharge dated 1978?

The review was conducted in accordance with "Title 10, U.S. Code Section 1162 and 1163," which pertains to grounds for involuntary separation from military service.
Is this the proving ground for a second or changed discharge, after a review?

_________________
Fix the problem, not the blame.
USMC E5 Nam vet 65-66

[Hondo]

Sam,


I'm a coffee drinker; I don't much care for tea - especially when it's "Grecian formula".

And I especially detest Kool-Aid. (grin)



Sgt-Keeper:

There's a thread giving the text of 10 USC 1162 and 10 USC 1163 as effective in the mid/late-1970s in the Resources and Research Forum. It hasn't been active lately, so it's not on page 1 any more.
_________________
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war, is worse."
-- John Stuart Mill

[lrb111]

Hondo,
there was an incident with a soldier on the west coast iirc, that was stripped of everything for protesting while in uniform. Since, that is how simplistic it could be, there were more than ample opportunities to strip kerry, from the simplistic on up.
_________________
said Democratic Chairman Terry McAuliffe. "It is inexcusable to mock service and sacrifice."
well, when even the DNC can see it,,,,, then kerry is toast.

[Hondo]

lrb111:


Hope that's it and that someone has a photo. However, I simply can't believe that even Lurch is THAT dumb. I think that "don't go in uniform" was VERY common knowledge among any uniformed folks who went to antiwar rallies.

The info I've seen re: his 15 October 1969 actions indicated he was not in uniform and did not speak at any of the rallies.
_________________
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war, is worse."
-- John Stuart Mill

[mangdawg]