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Wing Wiper
Rear Admiral
Joined: 09 Aug 2004
Posts: 664
Location: Oregon
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 Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| When I was in (72 - 76) you could buy any ribbon you wanted in the local Post Exchange, plus the medals, if I remember correctly. I never heard of anyone having to "apply" for replacement medals. I did get free ones when they were awarded (1 set). Maybe Kerry's just too cheap to buy them himself? I'm sure you could get any you wanted by contacting the Pentagon, if you were a war-hero Congressman. There's more to it than replacing the ones he threw over the fence, is my bet. |
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HardCorps
Ensign
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 65
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 9:59 am Post subject: REVOKE Mr. Kerry's medal SECNAVINST 1650.1 |
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Let my try and clear this up as I have all 3 approved Silver Star citations memorized word for word by now and have a good idea what happened.
The John Lehman Citation:
Kerry would not need a citation to get replacement medals as he could just buy them at the PX and his DD-214 is administrative verification. His Naval Records have signed copies of all Citations.
The 2 page original signed by ADM Zumwalt is not a problem because it's 2 pages, many are like that from the 60's. It's a problem because it’s fraudulent.
Citation #2 signed by ADM Nyland and Citation #3 by Lehman are even more fraudulent because in an attempt to shorten the citation to 1 page (new formatting rules) key information was completely removed and total fabrications were added from nowhere.
If you are not convinced then read this from the Navy Awards manual:
| Quote: | 116. REQUIREMENT FOR HONORABLE SERVICE
1. Title 10 U.S. Code, Section 6249 provides that no medal, cross, bar, or associated emblem or insignia may be awarded or presented to any individual if the service after the distinguishing act or period has not been honorable.
2. Any award for a distinguished act, achievement or service may be revoked before presentation by the approval authority, or after presentation by SECNAV, if facts, subsequently determined, would have prevented the original approval of the award, or if the awardees service after the distinguishing act, achievement or service has not been honorable.
3. If the awardees honorable service is questioned after presentation of the award, forward the entire case to NDBDM via CNO/CMC as appropriate for a determination and final disposition. |
-Kerry (while an Admirals Aide tried to recruit Lt. Peck and others to join VVAW) a group who materially aiding and comforted the enemy (fonda and others) planned assassination, overthrow of US Bases at home (All documented by VVAW) There are so many violations and none of them are 1st amendment rights issues. Dozens of other crimes while Kerry was still on Active Duty. This is NOT Honorable.
Combat "V"
Kerry's DD-214 has a typo as the Combat 'V" or Combat distinguishing device has NEVER, EVER been worn on the Silver Star. For good reason the Silver Star is for Gallantry only (a single act), it is never awarded for meritorious service, as the Bronze Star without "V" can be given to Staff officers behind a desk for doing an superlative job in air conditioned comfort (100's have been awarded in Iraq, Vietnam for this) Combat "V" (Valor) is only for:
-The Legion of Merit (for Field Grade Heroism)
-Air Medal (for single mission Aerial Heroism)
-Bronze Star (for Heroism)
-Navy /MC Commendation and Navy Achievement Medals (for Heroism)
-Army, Air Force Commendation and Achievement Medals (for Heroism)
Thus Kerry's Silver Star "V" means nothing because if he wore it and he never has, he would be the only one in history. It should be corrected however. (As should his 4 fraudulent medals) he would be at least the 500th Officer to have fraudulent medals revoked. (see my Navy Capt in Brig post)
_________________
__________________________
-USMC - Always Faithful
-Platoon Cmdr - Somalia
-ANGLICO FAC - Iraqi Freedom
Last edited by HardCorps on Mon Aug 23, 2004 10:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
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sevry
Commander
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 326
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| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 1:39 pm Post subject: Re: REVOKE Mr. Kerry's medal SECNAVINST 1650.1 |
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| HardCorps wrote: | Let my try and clear this up as I have all 3 approved Silver Star citations memorized word for word by now and have a good idea what happened.
The John Lehman Citation:
Kerry would not need a citation to get replacement medals as he could just buy them at the PX and his DD-214 is administrative verification. His Naval Records have signed copies of all Citations.
The 2 page original signed by ADM Zumwalt is not a problem because it's 2 pages, many are like that from the 60's.
. . .
Citation #2 signed by ADM Nyland and Citation #3 by Lehman even more fraudulent because in an attempt to shorten the citation to 1 page (new formatting rules) key information was completely removed and total fabrications were added from nowhere.
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Silver Star. I'm still curious about what it took to produce citation #2 and #3. As I understand it, Elliott was responsible for the write-up of #1, based on information he now considers to be false. But how did Kerry get one for the same thing signed by Nyland? Did this have something to do with 'new formatting rules', whatever those were? Was a separate and filed authorization form or signature required to have the Nyland text issued? And same for Lehman? Is there a paper-trail or traceability in front of the Lehman text? Or is the citation itself the entirely of the official government paperwork?
Also, if Kerry lied about the action, and it now appears that may be the case, and it appears Elliott believes it may be the case, do those regulations you quoted apply now that it's 35 years later and Kerry is no longer in the reserves? Does he have to be in the Navy in order for the medals to be revoked? Is there a statute of limitations? Who would initiate this action - Elliott himself, at this point? Hoffman? Hibbard?
And if any of the PH, for ex, were revoked, which Wright and others saw as a means to kicking Kerry out of the country, as it were - would that literally mean that Kerry could be instantly recalled to active duty, or would he have served his term, regardless of where he got himself assigned, toward the end? |
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carpro
Admin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 1176
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| azzuro wrote: | "Delete: Vietnam Service Medal
Add: Vietnam Service Medal with 4 bronze stars"
After posted, I found "4 bronze stars" are not "bronze dmedals". Sorry for layperson's question. Then I found following on a web site:
c. Soldiers receiving the Vietnam Service Medal are authorized to wear a bronze star to indicate each campaign. There are 17 designated campaigns during the period of 15 March 1962 through 28 January 1973. Units which receive campaign credit for any of the campaigns would display a streamer with inscription as shown on the unit's lineage and honors. The designated campaigns are:
Vietnam Advisory 3/15/62-3/7/65
Vietnam Defense 3/8/65-12/24/65
Vietnam Counteroffensive 12/25/65-6/30/66
Vietnam Phase II 7/1/66-3/31/67
Vietnam Counteroffensive Phase III 7/1/67-1/29/68
Tet Counteroffensive 1/30/68-4/1/68
Vietnam Counteroffensive Phase IV 4/2/68-6/30/68
Vietnam Counteroffensive Phase V 7/1/68-11/1/68
Vietnam Counteroffensive Phase VI 11/2/68-2/27/69
Tet 69 Counteroffensive 2/28/69-6/8/69
Vietnam Summer-Fall 6/9/69-10/31/69
Vietnam Winter-Spring 11/1/69-4/30/70
Sanctuary Counteroffensive 5/1/70-6/30/70
Vietnam Counteroffensive Phase VII 7/1/70-6/30/71
Consolidation I 7/1/71-11/30/71
Consolidation II 12/1/71-3/29/72
Vietnam Cease-Fire 3/30/72-1/28/73
If that is the case, Is Mr. Kerry claiming that he participated 4 campaigns amoung the list during the 4 months on the correction form?
Sorry in advance if this is another layperson's question.
Azzuro |
I've edited the previous post to reflect actual calender dates. Kerry is actually claiming participation in 5 campaigns...1 for the ribbon itself and 4 more for the four stars.
HOW?
_________________
"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service." |
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one more captins mast
LCDR
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 438
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 3:16 pm Post subject: First UNDERSTAND THAT "LIES HAVE LITTLE TO DO WITH THE |
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Do not count, do not number, do not read, do not review,
do not survey, do not publish, do not edit, do not spin.
IT IS NOT REAL
NONE OF IT IS
JUST ASK KERRY "WHO """WAS""" THE LAST TO DIE"
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the strange mr aj |
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cipher
Vice Admiral
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 902
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:12 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I've edited the previous post to reflect actual calender dates. Kerry is actually claiming participation in 5 campaigns...1 for the ribbon itself and 4 more for the four stars.
HOW? |
The Service Medal works a bit differently than an award. The bronze stars to the Service medal are indicative of CAMPAIGNS, not multiple awards of the Service Medal. This dates back to the WWI Victory Medal, when it was worn with bars to denote campaigns. The individual bars were represented by stars on the ribbon. The same is true of the later Service Medals, as for ETO and Asiatic Service in WWII, Korea Service, etc.
So, the Service Medal with 2 stars would indicate Vietnam Service in two campaigns (as per your list).
_________________
USMC 69-72, 7th Comm, 3rd MarDiv, FMFPAC
US Army 75-79, 97th Sig, SHAPE, NATO
Arkansas National Guard 79
Defense contractor for US Navy, SSPO, SP-20, SP-24, OP-12 84-92 |
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carpro
Admin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 1176
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:20 am Post subject: |
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OK
Looks like Kerry should have 2 campaign stars. Right?
Or is he counting Gridley service? I don't know the dates on that.
My record shows two stars so that's what I wore, but my service dates call for four stars like a lot of guys I served the same dates with. I just never complained. Didn't seem important to me.
So sometimes clerical errors are made. 
_________________
"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service." |
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cipher
Vice Admiral
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 902
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| Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:35 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Or is he counting Gridley service? I don't know the dates on that. |
I think that was what the issue was when he reapplied for the additional campaigns. As far as I know, if you were a member of the Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club, then you got stars for the time. I have no damage with that at all. If he rates them, fine. The Navy saw fit not to award them, though, it seems.
I suppose we could look at the USS GRIDLEY dates, however, I think that is probably the very LEAST of his problems if SecNav is going to crawl over his records with a microscope. And I have no doubt they will, this is becoming much too much of a high-profile issue.
What is interesting to contemplate (although it would be far to late to get the data BEFORE the election) would be if an FOIA could be filed for the results of the official US Navy investigation into the records. That would neatly circumvent the SF 180 for at least the awards portion of his records.
_________________
USMC 69-72, 7th Comm, 3rd MarDiv, FMFPAC
US Army 75-79, 97th Sig, SHAPE, NATO
Arkansas National Guard 79
Defense contractor for US Navy, SSPO, SP-20, SP-24, OP-12 84-92 |
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PO2
Ensign
Joined: 14 Aug 2004
Posts: 67
Location: TX USA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 6:12 am Post subject: Re: 4 bronze stars??? |
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| azzuro wrote: | Hello,
Browsing Mr. Kerry's military documents at his web site, I had the same question.
Mr. Kerry, I assume, corrected his ribbons and medals record on March 12, 2001:
Original Item 24 on DD Form 214 reads:
National Defense service Bronze star with Combat "V" Combat Action Ribbon
Vietnam Service Silver Star with Combat "V"
Vietnam Campaign Purple Heart (3 Awards)
Item 24 on DD Form 215 (Correction to DD Form 214) dated "20010312" read:
Presidential Unit Citation Ribbon
Navy Unit Citation Ribbon
Republic of Vietnam MUC Gallantry Cross Medal Color with Palm
Republic of Vietnam MUC Civil Action Medal Color with Palm
Delete: Vietnam Service Medal
Add: Vietnam Service Medal with 4 bronze stars
Does this make final number of Silver medal "0" and Bronze medal "5"?
Azzuro |
If I may, I believe I can explain some of this. I have not yet requested a DD-215 to get additional awards and decorations I earned. Just means more money to replace my ribbons.
Usually, our (Navy) DD-214 was a bit different than that of the Army. Navy uses full words, where Army used only abrieviations. I'll use abreviations here.
The NDSM did not have a device, and was awarded for "service during a time of conflict" BS could be without "V" if awarded outside combat, with the "V" if for combat actions. The SS is only a combat award, so no "V", It should read BS/V and then another award the CAR. VN Service was a Vietnamese award and was granted after 6 months in country (With 60 device - NOTE, there is no finish date on the device since the RVN GVT was not in existance to establish an end date) , VNC was awarded for each campaign, if present for any day of the campaign., The succeeding awards of the VNC was indicated by a bronze star device which changes to a single silver star device to designate 6 (total) awards of it. The single VNS was deleted so that the record could reflect 4 bronze star devices in addition to the award. (I have never seen anything on the VNS other than the 60 device, BTW) The NUC and PUC were rightfully added since after the period was complete the Navy decided if the award was merrited. I just found out about mine about a year ago when I checked records. The RVN CG/palm device and the RVN CA /palm was granted to all of us automatically during certain periods of the war.
Hope this clears it up for the civilians.
_________________
Duty. Honor. Country.
To me, more than just words. |
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sevry
Commander
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 326
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: 4 bronze stars??? |
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[quote="PO2"] | azzuro wrote: | Hello,
Browsing Mr. Kerry's military documents at his web site, I had the same question.
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Somebody got sidetracked on these campaign stars. But the issue was how Lehman's name got onto seemingly new citations for the same medals - YEARS later?
This is something, that this week, after all this time, for which no one seems to have the answer. Was Lehman personally involved in falsifying records? Was it just his stamp? Did Kerry or supporters literally forge these documents, by themselves? If an Award Recommendation form was required, initially, was a second Award Recommendation form required for the Lehman citations? If so, where are those second Award Recommendation forms?
That's all. |
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