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Jeremy Eaton
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 90
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 Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: Looking in on Kerry's Supporters |
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| Quote: |
Perhaps you are familiar with this:
http://www.nationalcenter.org/KyotoSenate.html
| Quote: | Sponsored by Senator Robert Byrd (D-WV) and Senator Chuck Hagel (R-NE)
Expressing the sense of the Senate regarding the conditions for the United States becoming a signatory to any international agreement on greenhouse gas emissions under the United Nations... (Passed by the Senate 95-0)
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Follow the link above for the full text. This vote was taken on July 25, 1997... so early in the Bush Presidency, he wasn't even elected yet.
While Kerry did express at the time that he believed in global warming, he also expressed concern about Kyoto and, by the way, voted with the 95-0 majority (he didn't even abstain).
I'd really appreciate your at least trying to set aside your clear hatred for our President and debate the issues on the facts.
Keith |
Point taken. Interesting link. Is that Helms on the floor? Stepping out of Kyoto was still a mistake. I mean it was great, if you wanted an oil war, and you happened to be in bed with the Saudi's. Otherwise, in terms of the next generation it was foolhardy. |
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Grampa
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 143
Location: Eureka, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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The fact of the matter is that Global warming IS junk science. We cannot predict local weather conditions out past 3 to 5 days much less the climate of the world.
There have been many times scientists have claimed false things with conviction and shoddy data in order to please their funders and to gain acceptance amongst their peers. Global warming is one of those frauds.
http://www.john-daly.com/
http://www.co2science.org/
http://www.marshall.org/
http://www.globalwarming.org/
You come in here spouting the usual braindead leftwing crap that has little basis in science and more a basis in leftwing anti-capitalist propaganda.
_________________
Iraqi Freedom 2003-2004. We won't take any of that 1960s crap when We come home! |
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War Dog
Captain
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 517
Location: Below Birmingham Alabama
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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Thirty years ago the environmental sect was claiming and warning that we were headed for a 'global ice age'! For the last ten years or so, they've been claiming and warning of 'global warming'! Can't they make up their minds.
One question I've asked on many other boards and sites of these enviro-nuts is:
Since the normal layman doesn't have a college degree in environmental science, how do they know what the truth is. Both sides of this issue (i.e. pro and con) have large groups of scientists and experts that claim that their side is right, and they provide proof that backs up their claims.
Speaking from one that doesn't have a clue on this matter, how do I and others in the same boat as I, know which side is right? If both sides have creditable experts and scientists, how do you know which to believe?
I have yet to have anyone give a viable answer on this topic?
Can you?
War Woof!
_________________
"When people are in trouble, they call the cops.
When cops need help, they call the K-9 unit." |
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Jeremy Eaton
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 90
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Grampa wrote: | The fact of the matter is that Global warming IS junk science. We cannot predict local weather conditions out past 3 to 5 days much less the climate of the world.
There have been many times scientists have claimed false things with conviction and shoddy data in order to please their funders and to gain acceptance amongst their peers. Global warming is one of those frauds.
http://www.john-daly.com/
http://www.co2science.org/
http://www.marshall.org/
http://www.globalwarming.org/
You come in here spouting the usual braindead leftwing crap that has little basis in science and more a basis in leftwing anti-capitalist propaganda. |
LOL
Okay the first site was made in memorial for a dead guy!
The second link seems to be a privately funded "Science" publication. Allright...
On the first page:
"Not much global warming here!"
Hmmm seems really objective. Good hard science there Gramps. Was this made by a high school student?
Third link:
Ah yes, the Marshall Institute... The links are getting better!
Okay here it get's technical. Still I can debunk this as well, but it'll take more time.
Fourth link:
Yes, this site is an enigma. I cannot get them to devulge their funding sources, but I'm working on it.
Look Gramps, do a search for the IPCC. This is an international forum, of leading experts that joined together to do a definitive study on global warming. Don't give me links about amatuer pseudo science, and privately funded crap.
You want to really debate me? Disprove this:
THE GLOBAL AVERAGE TEMPERATURE IS RISING DUE TO HUMAN ACTIVITIES.
Provide links. I'll get back to you about the Marshall institute. I'm pretty sure there is something about it in "The Heat is On" by Ross Gelbspan. |
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Jeremy Eaton
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 90
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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Okay
Marshall Institute:
From "The Heat is On"
Four months after the fracturing of the Larsen Ice shelf, the Washington-based, ideologically conservative George C. Marshall Institue released it's fourth consecutive report emphatically dismissing the notion of planetary warming. "Comparable temperature changes are commonplace in recent climate history," According to the institute, which conducts no original research itself and whose reports are viewedd by the vast majority of scientists as political statements rather than research contributions. Its own chairman has acknowledged that the institute's reports report nothing more than opinion.
There's more, but I don't want to waste my time boring you with more "brain dead" liberal sciency report information stuff....
[/b] |
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Jeremy Eaton
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 90
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| War Dog wrote: | Thirty years ago the environmental sect was claiming and warning that we were headed for a 'global ice age'! For the last ten years or so, they've been claiming and warning of 'global warming'! Can't they make up their minds.
One question I've asked on many other boards and sites of these enviro-nuts is:
Since the normal layman doesn't have a college degree in environmental science, how do they know what the truth is. Both sides of this issue (i.e. pro and con) have large groups of scientists and experts that claim that their side is right, and they provide proof that backs up their claims.
Speaking from one that doesn't have a clue on this matter, how do I and others in the same boat as I, know which side is right? If both sides have creditable experts and scientists, how do you know which to believe?
I have yet to have anyone give a viable answer on this topic?
Can you?
War Woof! |
Here's a simple answer for you:
Read!
You can actually find out a lot about who is credible and who isn't by doing a bit of extra thinking. Looking at what the motivations of the sources are is important too. Solicit different credible opinions. Look at what the environmental organizations are saying on their websites.
I recommend Sierra club.
The ice age/global warming thing is pretty straight forward. What they think might happen is that once the caps are melted it'll change currents in the oceans to start an ice age. Or so one particular theory goes...
This is an excellent link. The BBC did an excellent series on global warming, and it continues to be very objective.
[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/science/climatewars.shtml
[/url] |
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War Dog
Captain
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 517
Location: Below Birmingham Alabama
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks! I will check out those sites!
Woof!
_________________
"When people are in trouble, they call the cops.
When cops need help, they call the K-9 unit." |
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeremy Eaton wrote: |
Greenhat, did you read those links?
Nothing about what you stated there. If you are going to use stats please try to provide a link or source. I will source my stats as well. Otherwise, I'll ignore them. I cannot find that information in the Kyoto protocol anywhere. (36%)
I'm not sure what your point in providing the links, but thanks for the info!
The one on methane was interesting.
And let me qualify for your benefit:
Anybody doing serious study on this topic is in agreement that the global average temperature is increasing and is due to human activities. Period. There are dissenting scientists that are privately funded, that no one takes very seriously. So in that sense you are right, and I am wrong, the scientists aren't in agreement. But in the sense that the more objective forums, and amongst the leading experts in the field, I am right. So you want to invest your trust into PR firms and the bottom-less pocket fossil fuel industry funded studies. Go ahead. We'll just agree to disagree, ok? |
The statistics come from the supporting documents for the Kyoto protocol. Found them on a Kyoto website. Sorry, didn't bother to grab the link because it seemed pretty cut and dried and clearly linked to the protocol.
Regardless, Kyoto was and is a stupid idea (force certain countries to reduce their emissions, but leave China and India alone? ).
I do have a couple of questions for you, though. In your opinion, will the greenhouse gasses destroy the Earth? How do you explain the historic and archeological evidence that indicates that a warming of the Earth occured roughly at the time that the Renaissance started?
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De Oppresso Liber |
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Jeremy Eaton
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 90
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="LewWaters"] | Quote: |
Again, I'll ask, what modern conveniences that are adding to world pollution have you given up? Your car? Air Conditioning? Electric lights? Tell us just what sacrifices you have personally made for a cleaner tomorrow. |
This a bit of a red herring, but how's this:
I don't drive. I bike and take the train (I am travelling in Japan right now), sometimes I use taxis (natural gas). My Air con energy is partially supplied by solar, and I use energy efficient bulbs.
And you? |
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Jeremy Eaton
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 90
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Greenhat"] | Jeremy Eaton wrote: |
Regardless, Kyoto was and is a stupid idea (force certain countries to reduce their emissions, but leave China and India alone? ).
I do have a couple of questions for you, though. In your opinion, will the greenhouse gasses destroy the Earth? How do you explain the historic and archeological evidence that indicates that a warming of the Earth occured roughly at the time that the Renaissance started? |
Will greenhouse gasses destroy the earth? On their own no. It is possible that increased warming will stress ecosystems to the point of collapse. Do I think this means an end to all life on the planet? Nope. I could go into great detail about environmental stresses, the importance of biodiversity, how an eco-system works, and our relationship to that. Keep in mind, we still have: acid rain, rainforest destruction, deforestation, air pollution, over-fishing/driftnetting, ozone depletion et. al.
Oh yeah, THAT... check out the link
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/science/climatewars.shtml
for the BBC interview one of them goes into that. Here's the deal... with the exception of one (or two) anomalies (that I know of) the data is pretty consistent.
There isn't a problem with all recorded meteorological history. That all supports the warming theory. There have been studies down with ice core drilling and trees and stuff like that. I think it's pretty hard to say authoritatively what was happening during those periods, so that data is sketchy. Temperatures can only be estimated for these periods.
During the few isolated cases of like the Renaissance- and there was some other case in Asia I believe.
I'll get back to you on that...
Regardless, global warming is occuring now, and it would be best to be prudent about it. [/b] |
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Jeremy Eaton
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 90
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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Greenhat,
In a nutshell, in the end of the twentieth century the global average temperature spikes. Coorellated with the industrial revolution. |
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Jeremy Eaton
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 90
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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Greenhat,
Listen to the link... Program 1.
The scientists explain it better than I can. |
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LewWaters
Admin
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 4:58 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | This a bit of a red herring, but how's this:
I don't drive. I bike and take the train (I am travelling in Japan right now), sometimes I use taxis (natural gas). My Air con energy is partially supplied by solar, and I use energy efficient bulbs. |
Not a red herring at all. Since you spout how bad everything is, and if you are in Japan, maybe that is why you believe it, your personal efforts are subject to scrutiny.
Since I'm not claiming the sky is falling, my efforts are not as pertinent as yours, a true red herring. However, since I did ask you, I live 12 blocks from work, recycle everything I can, rarely use any air conditioning, also have energy efficient flourescent light bulbs, eat a lot of left overs (I hate wasting good food), wear heavier clothes during the winter, I would use solar, but in the Pacific Northwest, it isn't very viable. In addition, since I am an auto mechanic, I am also a State of Washington Certified Automotive Emissions Specialist. Although able to write waivers for customers that spend a certain amount of money in an effort to decrease the emissions of their vehicles and they still don't, I have never written a waiver. As far as I'm concerned, they fix them proper or take them off the road. I'm also ASE refrigerant and recycling certified.
I work with autos every single day at a new car dealership (Dodge) and can see first hand what improvements are made in cars and how automotive emissions are decreasing without any Kyoto agreement that would only destroy our economy. |
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Scott
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 1603
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 5:17 am Post subject: |
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| sparky wrote: | | Quote: | MOVEON’S 50 WAYS TO LOVE YOUR COUNTY
Yes, we know, subjecting it to the UN is number one. |
PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT
Just to clarify: since the rightwing is so fond of spreading urban myths, the above assertion is entirely untrue. While I'm sure that this won't stop many of you rightwingers from repeating it, try to be responsible and restrain yourselves. |
For once, Sparky's right:
50 Ways to Love your Country is about protecting wolves in Alaska from trappers.
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Jeremy Eaton
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 90
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 9:16 am Post subject: |
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| LewWaters wrote: | | Quote: | This a bit of a red herring, but how's this:
I don't drive. I bike and take the train (I am travelling in Japan right now), sometimes I use taxis (natural gas). My Air con energy is partially supplied by solar, and I use energy efficient bulbs. |
Not a red herring at all. Since you spout how bad everything is, and if you are in Japan, maybe that is why you believe it, your personal efforts are subject to scrutiny.
Since I'm not claiming the sky is falling, my efforts are not as pertinent as yours, a true red herring. However, since I did ask you, I live 12 blocks from work, recycle everything I can, rarely use any air conditioning, also have energy efficient flourescent light bulbs, eat a lot of left overs (I hate wasting good food), wear heavier clothes during the winter, I would use solar, but in the Pacific Northwest, it isn't very viable. In addition, since I am an auto mechanic, I am also a State of Washington Certified Automotive Emissions Specialist. Although able to write waivers for customers that spend a certain amount of money in an effort to decrease the emissions of their vehicles and they still don't, I have never written a waiver. As far as I'm concerned, they fix them proper or take them off the road. I'm also ASE refrigerant and recycling certified.
I work with autos every single day at a new car dealership (Dodge) and can see first hand what improvements are made in cars and how automotive emissions are decreasing without any Kyoto agreement that would only destroy our economy. |
That's all great. But China, and other parts of the world are quickly developing. What will happen when China wants a billion new cars, and we have no international agreement in place? Not to mention that achieving an agreement is difficult enough in the first place. Being part of a process means be able to negotiate. Simply dropping out of Kyoto is unacceptable, and irresponsible due to the leadership position that the US has in the world. Kyoto, now may, very well fall apart. When are we going to stop being oil junkies? We need to make better choices now! The situation will only deteriorate, causing more wars, and more economic disturbances of greater magnitude.
This argument is familiar to me, because I made it during Gulf War I. In retrospect, a FAR more justifiable war. Now history repeats itself, because we failed to make changes in our energy policy, attitudes, and industry.
Unless, of course you believe the propaganda about Iraq/ Al Quaeda links. Which I have numerous international, national sources telling me it's crap. Not to mention sound bites from the admin. itself, Colin Powell, and others.
It's also why countries like Canada were unconvinced to participate in the international coalition. Whereas they did when Kuwait was invaded or "reclaimed" if you believe Iraqi propaganda. (Always good to get perspective)
I am travelling, and I can tell you a little bit more about what the international press says. I don't read the Japanese press, (at least not yet), it's in Japanese, of which I can speak, but haven't mastered reading. I do have the opportunity to speak with a larger more international group of people. Having a broader perspective is a good thing, I believe.
You said that Kyoto would destroy our economy. I am not convinced, and would appreciate any information you have on that. I do know that (I'll do my own search as well).
Different PR firms spent millions on downplaying the threat and emphasizing the disadvantages of Kyoto.
Just a few:
Global Climate Coalition spent more than a million
National Coal Association spent 700,000
American Automobile Manufacturers spent 100,000 on membership dues to GCC.
I assure you that is a greater sum than that paid to all the major environmental organizations combined. If you think the government is going to take up the mantle of what NGO's can't handle... Well consider that the EPA is run by a lot people who are ex-fossil fuel industry people. '(I used to have a great link to Sierra club about that). You can also get a little insight by listening to that BBC link I've provided.
I can state that the future costs will be far higher than a sluggish economy. That's even IF global warming doesn't CONTINUE to happen .
Did you know that insurance companies are taking global warming seriously, and in some cases refusing coverage? |
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