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kmudd
Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 825
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 Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| PENJ , even if someone views Vietnam as a msitake you should not meet with the enemy while our troops are being killed every day .People like Kerry caused the peace talks to stall.Thus keeping the USA in the war longer. |
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PENJ
Former Member
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 46
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| kmudd wrote: | | PENJ , even if someone views Vietnam as a msitake you should not meet with the enemy while our troops are being killed every day .People like Kerry caused the peace talks to stall.Thus keeping the USA in the war longer. |
I agree with you that only elected representatives should be authorized to meet with an enemy in war time. That to me is the one serious charge leveled against Kerry. I will not, however, blame those protesting for extending the war. By 1972, with the opening to China, the strategic reasons for continuing to fight were no longer there and the South Vietnamese were given ample opportunity to take over. Whether or not Kerry was talking with the enemy, the enemy knew the American people were growing tired of the war, but the South Vietnamese should have known that too. It is the government that we helped create that lost the war. |
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Polaris
Rear Admiral
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 626
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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PENJ,
I have no problems with the fact that Kerry protested the war. Both my parents did and I respect my father greatly. In fact (as a guess) I suspect that almost all of the swiftvets would not have minded Kerry protesting the war if that was all he did.
The problem is that he didn't....and he is on record for having met with the enemy as a commissioned naval officer...and FBI records seem to indicate that he did so more than once.
This I can never forgive.
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-Polaris
Truth is Beauty |
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PENJ
Former Member
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 46
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Polaris wrote: | PENJ,
I have no problems with the fact that Kerry protested the war. Both my parents did and I respect my father greatly. In fact (as a guess) I suspect that almost all of the swiftvets would not have minded Kerry protesting the war if that was all he did.
The problem is that he didn't....and he is on record for having met with the enemy as a commissioned naval officer...and FBI records seem to indicate that he did so more than once.
This I can never forgive. |
Well, I understand and respect your position. |
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kmudd
Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 825
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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Many people who were inside the Anti-war groups such as David Horiwiz (spelling) say the antiwar protesters were getting money from the communists .It is Kerry who during this whole campaign who has focused on what he did during Vietnam.The night of his big speech at the convention ,I saw almost nothing about what Kerry did as a senator . All I saw was Kerry promoting his Vietnam days.Well if wants to run on what he did during the Vietnam war how can he complain when people point to what he did back then ? He wants to be elected as a vietnam war hero so it is fair to look at his Vietnam record.
Last edited by kmudd on Wed Aug 18, 2004 2:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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kmudd
Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 825
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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I see nothing wrong with protesting the war or any other governemt policy you don't agree with. But meeting with the enemy is what I don't agree with.
It is funny that Kerry thought it was okay to protest against Nixon, but he doesn't like anyone protesting against what he has done. |
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PENJ
Former Member
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 46
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| kmudd wrote: | | Many people who were inside the Anti-war groups such as David Horiwiz (spelling) say the antiwar protesters were getting money from the communists .It is Kerry who during this whole campaign who has focused on what he did during Vietnam.The night of his big speech at gthe convention ,I saw almost nothing about what Kerry did as a senator . All I saw was Kerry promoting his Vietnam days.Well if wants to run on what he did during the Vietnam war how he complain when people point to what he did back then ? He wants to be elected as a vietnam war hero so it is fair to look at his Vietnam record. |
I believe personally that it is fair looking at his Vietnam records.
As far as Communists being part of organizations, there were some communists that worked with Martin Luther King. There was also, however, little evidence that King himself was influenced by Communism. Most of these anti-war or civil rights organizations were very loosely organized so all sorts of people got involved. (There also surely were some organizations that were communist in orientation.)
Surely, there were some nuts carrying the quotations of Chairman Mao, but what's that Beatle song "If you go carrying the book of Chairman Mao.. no one is going to listen to you anyhow." |
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PENJ
Former Member
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 46
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| kmudd wrote: | I see nothing wrong with protesting the war or any other governemt policy you don't agree with. But meeting with the enemy is what I don't agree with.
It is funny that Kerry thought it was okay to protest against Nixon, but he doesn't like anyone protesting against what he has done. |
I don't know anyone who likes being called a liar, but at least a Bush supporter can see Kerry speak. To hear Bush or Cheney speak in person, one has to sign a form stating that you support the President. As far as the swift boat ads go, I think they should be allowed to air. I don't think much of the ads, but free speech is free speech. |
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kmudd
Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 825
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes but communists who are being finnaced from Moscow or Hanoi in order to get the USA to pull out of Vietnam during a war, is much different then some guy who read Marx and while having having a poor choice of an ideal system of government really is not doing the bidding of a forien government who is at war with the USA. |
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PENJ
Former Member
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 46
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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| kmudd wrote: | | Yes but communists who are being finnaced from Moscow or Hanoi in order to get the USA to pull out of Vietnam during a war, is much different then some guy who read Marx and while having having a poor choice of an ideal system of government really is not doing the bidding of a forien government who is at war with the USA. |
I sincerely doubt that money coming in from the Soviet Union significantly influenced the anti-war movement. I have met some people from organizations that truly believed in communism and they acted and spoke like people who believed in UFOs. The more radical an organization became, the less influence they gained, in my view.
In any case, the public in 1972 chose Nixon's Vietnamization withdrawal plan over McGovern's pullout. One could argue that Watergate distracted Nixon from helping out the South Vietnamese when the peace agreement started falling apart (and Nixon did in "No More Vietnams"), but personally I believe that the sudden collapse would've just become a slower collapse. After more than 10 years of American involvement, I don't think that the South Vietnamese government ever properly took hold and I don't think the protesters are to blame for that. |
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kmudd
Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 825
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Kerry's meeting with the enemy, and protesting prolonged the war. Evertime the peace talks started moving toward to what the USA could agree too there would be a big anti-war protest the North Vietnamese would pull back and wait to see if the USA would just pull out without no deals on POWS or anything else,Why make a deal today when if you wait a little while the USA will pull out anyway? |
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PENJ
Former Member
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 46
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| kmudd wrote: | | Kerry's meeting with the enemy, and protesting prolonged the war. Evertime the peace talks started moving toward to what the USA could agree too there would be a big anti-war protest the North Vietnamese would pull back and wait to see if the USA would just pull out without no deals on POWS or anything else,Why make a deal today when if you wait a little while the USA will pull out anyway? |
Well, that's Nixon view as expressed in "No More Vietnams". Nixon argues that the US had the North Vietnamese on the run after Tet, but, just as the US was winning, support for the war was fading.
I personally believe that the North Vietnamese were always playing to win, that either we had the will/interest to defeat them completely or they were going to keep on fighting, which meant in the end that it was up to the South Vietnamese. In any case, I don't think it is right to blame the protesters. American had a right to protest and they had a right to lose interest in a war that was no longer in their interest. Again, we had 10 years to help create a government in South Vietnam that South Vietnamese wanted to fight hard to defend. Our military men and women fought hard and well, but our political leaders failed, in my view. |
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Polaris
Rear Admiral
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 626
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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PENJ,
Actually all the military historical accounts agree (including Gen. Giap) that North Vietnam and the VC were beaten after the Tet offensive. They only tried it because they were desperate.
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-Polaris
Truth is Beauty |
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MJB
LCDR
Joined: 14 Aug 2004
Posts: 425
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="PENJ"] | kmudd wrote: |
I don't know anyone who likes being called a liar, but at least a Bush supporter can see Kerry speak. To hear Bush or Cheney speak in person, one has to sign a form stating that you support the President. |
Actually, we're going to see the President speak this afternoon in St. Paul. Tickets were free and available at the local GOP headquarters. Because there were so many people there, they had a series of ropes creating a line/que of people. As we waited to go inside the building and pick up tickets, a friendly young man at the head of the line explained the process to attend.
He said anyone was welcome to attend. We would be screened at the door by the Secret Service and advised us to not bring anything that we wouldn't bring on an airplane. No signs, posters, flags or banners would be allowed (pro or con). No protests would be allowed in the building, but protestors were welcome to gather outside (he gave a location, but since I wouldn't be attending the protest I didn't pay attention). Basically, leave purses and bags at home if you want to get through the screening quickly.
Once inside we lined up infront of ticket stations manned by GOP volunteers, entering data on computers. You were allowed to pick up tickets for yourself and a group of other people. The person picking up the tickets would be required to show a photo ID at the door, but not anyone else in the group.
I believe they requested my social security number, and perhaps my husbands, but not my daughters. He entered my name and address in his computer and that was about it.
Since we are dealing with the office of the President, the Secret Service has every right to sift through the list of names to see if there are known threats to the President potentially attending.
So, no restrictions, no loyalty oaths, nothin'. Looking forward to hearing what the COC has to say  .
MJB |
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PENJ
Former Member
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 46
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| Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Polaris wrote: | PENJ,
Actually all the military historical accounts agree (including Gen. Giap) that North Vietnam and the VC were beaten after the Tet offensive. They only tried it because they were desperate. |
Well, militarily, they were defeated in all major battles. |
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