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sparky
Former Member


Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What? No comments on Tiger Force?

And, in addition to the Pulitzer, their story was repeated, after-the-scoop, by
The New York Times, Feb 16, 2004 pA12 col 06
The Houston Chronicle (Houston, TX) Nov 1, 2003 p12 (297 words)
The AP wires, Associated Press Monday, October 20, 2003; Page A02
which was reprinted in
The Washington Post
The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Editor And Publisher (very prestigious journal)
PBS News Hour with Jim Lehrer
The Miami Herald
The Philadelphia Inquirer
The Columba Journalism Review
ABC News Nightline
The New Yorker

Here's a link. While you were at the loading docks, the jungles had crap like this going on:

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=SRTIGERFORCE
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sparky
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's what the Columbia Journalism Review had to say about the Blade series:

[A Laurel} to The Blade, in Toledo, Ohio, for cutting through the fog of war and time and secrecy. Thirty-six years after an elite forty-five-man U.S. Army platoon in tiger-striped uniforms arrived in the jungles of Vietnam on a search-and-destroy mission aimed at “out-guerrilling” the fierce guerrilla enemy, the paper undertook a daunting mission of its own: to investigate allegations, never before publicly aired, that many members of that “Tiger Force” unit had committed unthinkable atrocities against unarmed Vietnamese civilians. The result, eight months in the making and drawing on thousands of classified and unclassified records and scores of interviews with former Tiger Force soldiers as well as witnesses in Vietnam, was a four-part series published in October. Its title, “Buried Secrets, Brutal Truths,” did not exaggerate: in a perverse definition of a “free-fire zone,” platoon members shot down elderly farmers in their fields, beheaded a baby, kicked out the teeth of dead civilians to grab the gold, tortured and executed prisoners, strung human trophy ears on shoelaces to wear as necklaces. Almost as shockingly, findings of official inquiries disappeared into Army archives, and with the help of the Nixon administration, the war criminals got away with it. That is, until now.

I agree with any vet who claims that high-ranking DOD officials looked the other way at these atrocities. They shelved their investigation of Tiger Force after corroborating the above accusations.
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Greenhat
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Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig wrote:
Greenhat wrote:
sparky wrote:
I don't buy it. Oh, I understand the accusation, but I haven't seen anything confirming this from a legitimate source (your word that "he lied" just won't cut it, sorry). As far as I'm concerned, much of that list requires that military personnel act patriotically and honorably by protesting a brutal and horrific war. Anyone witnessing ear necklaces who doesn't protest the war has a few screws loose.


Well, maybe you should read this:

http://www.richmond.edu/~ebolt/history398/JohnKerryTestimony.html

Note in particular, the statement: "not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command...."


That site was certainly an interesting read - I'd only read shorter partial quotes - such as the one above - mostly seeming to attempt to put the worst slant possible on what he said.
Now reading this I see that he was not speaking just for his self but was speaking as representative of the group, so if there was lie it was the groups lie and not expecially his own. But then there were some of the group who did lie about what they claimed to have experienced. Long time back I heard claim that *they* were "Dirty Tricks Comittee" plants to make easily refutable claims to discredit the whole group. Myself would think that maybe some were and some were just bozo's acting/BSing on their own behalf for whatever personal reasons. But I gather that most of the claims were valid enough.
Some folks keep claiming that Kerry lied - I don't know if they distinguish between what is lying and what is merely mistaken. At worst I think that he - speaking for the vets against the war - may have overstated some. But again I have known numerous folks who would not think he overstated at all. There are a lot of folks who claim they never saw the atrocities spoken of and there are a lot who claim that they have seen such and much of such. I am sure there is some number of liars in either camp.

I think it would serve any advocacy group well to make some attempt to weed slanderers from their group and it would do individuals well to disaccociate themselves from slanderers even if the liars support a common politic.


He was a Naval Officer. He is responsible to ensure that the information is correct. It is he that took the oath before Congress, he that presented the testimony. You can make all the excuses you want. But that is what they are, excuses.

The lack of having served is noticable in some of the posters here. You do not understand that there are places in the world where you are expected to be a man of your word. Where people place their lives in the hands of others because of their word. Mistakes? We all make them. But in front of Congress, under oath, when it is a reflection on our brothers? That sort of a mistake is unforgivable.
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Greenhat
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Joined: 09 May 2004
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sparky wrote:

I agree with any vet who claims that high-ranking DOD officials looked the other way at these atrocities. They shelved their investigation of Tiger Force after corroborating the above accusations.


Gee, the Columbia Journalism review and the Pulitzer. In other words, two groups who know absolutely nothing about the subject matter.

I served in the 1st Battalion, 327th Infantry. And I never heard of these guys. Not a whisper. And I was the unit historian. Now isn't that strange?

As it happens, I have degrees in history, and I have looked over the research done by the Blade. Maybe the Pulitzer people think it is well-done. I don't, and I doubt that any historian would. There are some serious problems in the methodology and verification of the stories.
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JasonBinPNW
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Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 58
Location: Vancouver (not BC), Washington (Not DC)

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ART. 88. CONTEMPT TOWARD OFFICIALS

Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

ART. 92. FAILURE TO OBEY ORDER OR REGULATION

Any person subject to this chapter who--

(1) violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation;

(2) having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by any member of the armed forces, which it is his duty to obey, fails to obey the order; or

(3) is derelict in the performance of his duties; shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

ART. 99. MISBEHAVIOR BEFORE THE ENEMY

Any person subject to this chapter who before or in the presence of the enemy--

(9) does not afford all practicable relief and assistance to any troops, combatants, vessels, or aircraft of the armed forces belonging to the United States or their allies when engaged in battle; shall be punished by death or such punishment as a court-martial may direct

ART. 107. FALSE STATEMENTS

Any person subject to this chapter who, with intent to deceive, signs any false record, return, regulation, order, or other official document, knowing it to be false, or makes any other false official statement knowing it to be false, shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

Now, in order to avoid posting the entire UCMJ, ART. 118. MURDER, ART. 120. RAPE AND CARNAL KNOWLEDGE, ART. 121. LARCENY AND WRONGFUL APPROPRIATION, ART. 122. ROBBERY, ART. 124. MAIMING, ART. 126. ARSON.

All of these are offenses that Mr. Kerry claims to have witnessed, yet done nothing to stop as is his duty under his oath as an Officer of the United States Navy.

That leads us to:
ART. 133. CONDUCT UNBECOMING AN OFFICER AND A GENTLEMAN

And

ART. 134. GENERAL ARTICLE

Though not specifically mentioned in this chapter, all disorders and neglects to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces, ll conduct of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces, and crimes and offenses not capital, of which persons subject to this chapter may be guilty, shall be taken cognizance of by a general, special or summary court-martial, according to the nature and degree of the offense, and shall be punished at the discretion of that court.

I will be back in a few hours to finish this "discussion".
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Craig
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Greenhat"][quote="Craig"][quote="Greenhat"]
sparky wrote:


He was a Naval Officer. He is responsible to ensure that the information is correct. It is he that took the oath before Congress, he that presented the testimony. You can make all the excuses you want. But that is what they are, excuses.

The lack of having served is noticable in some of the posters here. You do not understand that there are places in the world where you are expected to be a man of your word. Where people place their lives in the hands of others because of their word. Mistakes? We all make them. But in front of Congress, under oath, when it is a reflection on our brothers? That sort of a mistake is unforgivable.


You do not know squat about what I understand nor of where I have been.
One can expect all sorts of crap but in the real world one must settle for what is or just ***** about things as they are that one does not like being as they are.
I've seen a rare candidate who I would give great scores on being man of his word. So what should I do for that? Maybe not vote at all?

But I would be happy to carry on with the insult crap. Do you know of some nice unmoderated forum where we might meet and carry on with the personal sh**?
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Craig
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Craig"][quote="Greenhat"][quote="Craig"]
Greenhat wrote:
sparky wrote:


He was a Naval Officer. He is responsible to ensure that the information is correct. It is he that took the oath before Congress, he that presented the testimony. You can make all the excuses you want. But that is what they are, excuses.

The lack of having served is noticable in some of the posters here. You do not understand that there are places in the world where you are expected to be a man of your word. Where people place their lives in the hands of others because of their word. Mistakes? We all make them. But in front of Congress, under oath, when it is a reflection on our brothers? That sort of a mistake is unforgivable.


You do not know squat about what I understand nor of where I have been.
One can expect all sorts of crap but in the real world one must settle for what is or just ***** about things as they are that one does not like being as they are.
I've seen a rare candidate who I would give great scores on being man of his word. So what should I do for that? Maybe not vote at all?

But I would be happy to carry on with the insult crap. Do you know of some nice unmoderated forum where we might meet and carry on with the personal sh**?


P.S. to that about "word". My first concern is about my own word. I have pretty well weeded dishonest folks from my own life - were I to weed all I guess that would leave me not relating to much folks at all. - LOL maybe it is in Proverbs where a prophet is b****ing about not finding a righteous man in a thousand and not one woman ... ? Forget accurately the quote.
I do not make oaths and promises but I have found that I keep what word I do give much more than folks who do make oath easily and then as easily make all sorts of retroactive loopholes.
I've not noticed a whole lot of honesty in folks who I have observed to make great issue about the honesty of others either. I had once figured the worst Karma of a liar would be to not be believed when it was important to him to be believed. I have since amended to the worst Karma ffor a liar is to comdemn his self to live in a world of liars.
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eecee
Ensign


Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sparky wrote:
[The only person who served ON THE BOAT WITH KERRY who speaks ill of him does so because Kerry threatened to have him court-martialed when he endangered civilians. It's a good thing this guy didn't frag Kerry.



Actually, Gardner killed civilians, including a small child. Kerry was furious with him for opening fire without orders - he claimed he saw someone stand up in the sampan with a gun, and so Kerry accepted his explanation.

Apparently Gardner was nicknamed "the wld man" because he liked to shoot those guns.
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eecee
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Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Craig"][quote="Craig"][quote="Greenhat"]
Craig wrote:
Greenhat wrote:
sparky wrote:


He was a Naval Officer. He is responsible to ensure that the information is correct. It is he that took the oath before Congress, he that presented the testimony. You can make all the excuses you want. But that is what they are, excuses.

The lack of having served is noticable in some of the posters here. You do not understand that there are places in the world where you are expected to be a man of your word. Where people place their lives in the hands of others because of their word. Mistakes? We all make them. But in front of Congress, under oath, when it is a reflection on our brothers? That sort of a mistake is unforgivable.


You do not know squat about what I understand nor of where I have been.
One can expect all sorts of crap but in the real world one must settle for what is or just ***** about things as they are that one does not like being as they are.
I've seen a rare candidate who I would give great scores on being man of his word. So what should I do for that? Maybe not vote at all?

But I would be happy to carry on with the insult crap. Do you know of some nice unmoderated forum where we might meet and carry on with the personal sh**?


P.S. to that about "word". My first concern is about my own word. I have pretty well weeded dishonest folks from my own life - were I to weed all I guess that would leave me not relating to much folks at all. - LOL maybe it is in Proverbs where a prophet is b****ing about not finding a righteous man in a thousand and not one woman ... ? Forget accurately the quote.
I do not make oaths and promises but I have found that I keep what word I do give much more than folks who do make oath easily and then as easily make all sorts of retroactive loopholes.
I've not noticed a whole lot of honesty in folks who I have observed to make great issue about the honesty of others either. I had once figured the worst Karma of a liar would be to not be believed when it was important to him to be believed. I have since amended to the worst Karma ffor a liar is to comdemn his self to live in a world of liars.
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sparky
Former Member


Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Gee, the Columbia Journalism review and the Pulitzer. In other words, two groups who know absolutely nothing about the subject matter.


Hardly. There were far more than these two groups. Greenhat already tried this when he said

Quote:
Have you noticed that only the Toledo Blade has actually bothered to run the Tiger Force story?


Far more than that, there were dozens of reputable journals and newspapers reporting on those atrocities, including:

And, in addition to the Pulitzer, their story was repeated, after-the-scoop, by
The New York Times, Feb 16, 2004 pA12 col 06
The Houston Chronicle (Houston, TX) Nov 1, 2003 p12 (297 words)
The AP wires, Associated Press Monday, October 20, 2003; Page A02
which was reprinted in
The Washington Post
The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Editor And Publisher (very prestigious journal)
PBS News Hour with Jim Lehrer
The Miami Herald
The Philadelphia Inquirer
The Columba Journalism Review
ABC News Nightline
The New Yorker
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sparky
Former Member


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Posts: 546

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Someone needs to clarify this "Kerry said bad things about Vietnam and should have been court martialed" crap.

After weeding through a 50 page document and wasting my time, I find out that article 88 says officers have to say nice things about Nixon and Agnew? This is the worst rule Kerry broke?

Man-o-man! Talk about scraping!

Big question: Don't you guys just wish NOBODY ever told a soul about civilian massacres when our side does it? Wouldn't that be sweet? We'd be able to do anything we wanted!
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JasonBinPNW
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Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 58
Location: Vancouver (not BC), Washington (Not DC)

PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2004 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sparky wrote:
Big question: Don't you guys just wish NOBODY ever told a soul about civilian massacres when our side does it? Wouldn't that be sweet? We'd be able to do anything we wanted!


No, again, you are over-reaching.

Mr. Kerry stated that this kind of thing was routine and everyone was involved in it.

If it WAS true, and he did nothing to stop it as he witnessed it, then he was deralict in his duties as an officer without exception.

His statements were all encompassing and overly broad. He accused EVERYONE of this type of conduct. That is a blatant lie.

If it was not true, then obviously, he's still lying. Get it?

Nobody I have ever known would condone that kind of savage conduct by their fellow soldiers, sailors or airmen. His broad brush is an insult to the hundreds of thousands of men and women who served honorably in Vietnam.

So to conclude: He either lied to congress (which he has admitted doing) OR he was not doing his job as an Officer in the United States Navy.

He has already admitted that he over stated the facts to congress, and now says that he "regretts" using such strong language in retrospect. OH, sorry I accussed all of you guys of murdering people and mutilating corpses and such... I hope you're not still angry at me...

Next, he paints himself as a model officer. See the above post regarding the UCMJ Articles that he violated as a serving officer. "Good" officers don't violate the UCMJ while they are serving their comission. If he wants to run on his service record, then he's going to have to accept that his actions in violation of the UCMJ are going to be considered. Part of "Civil Disobedience" (if that is what you want to call it) is a willingness to accept the consequences of your actions. Thus far, he has shown an unwillingness to do so by deploying an army of borg trolls like yourself.

Personal opinion only: The only reason he wasn't charged is that he was so close to the Kennedy family. Better men than Kerry tried the same thing and were not treated so kindly.

It is one thing to have your beliefs, but after swearing your word to abide by the standards of conduct and the UCMJ, believe it or not, you are going to be taken at your word.

So I ask you again. What do you have to offer by way of fact (You DO know what facts are right? not conjecture, not opinion) that adds any merit to your argument?

You obviously have never served a day in your life, aside from maybe the Girl Scouts, so you would have no idea what weight your word as an Officer would have. Therefore, I don't believe that you could possibly offer ANYTHING of value that would enlighten those of us who know and appreciate what it means. To YOU "Honor", "Courage" and "Integrity" are abstract conceptual ideals you prescribe to those who you agree with otherwise. To us, they are nouns. They are traits with meaning.

To summarize:
Kerry either witnessed these atrocities and did nothing about them... thus violating his duty to uphold his office.

OR

Kerry defamed the men he served beside and lied to congress in his speech.

There is NO MIDDLE GROUND. NONE. Zero.

He either performed his duties as an officer... in whichcase he would have interceded with the war crimes he witnessed, or he lied to congress because he witnessed no such actions.

Any argument to the contrary is not logically consistant with reality.

Now I CHALLENGE YOU (Sparky) to provide me with FACTUAL EVIDENCE RELEVANT TO THE ARGUMENT (again, not conjecture, hyperbole, rhetoric or opinion... let me define it further, 2+2=4 (fact), 2+2= might equal 5 somewhere in time and space (Hyperbole, Conjecture, Rehtoric, Relativism) Now show me FACT)

Here are my FACTS:
A Comissioned Officer is sworn to uphold the code of conduct, to never lie, to enforce the UCMJ 24 hours per day, 7 days per week etc in and out of uniform while he holds his comission without exception.

Kerry either lied, or did not uphold his oath or abide by the standard of conduct.

Show me RELEVANT FACTS that say he did not do either.
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sparky
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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2004 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Mr. Kerry stated that this kind of thing was routine and everyone was involved in it.


NO. He didn't say "everyone was involved in it." That's just exaggeration designed to make it sound like he's smearing all Vietnam vets.
It works on Planet Freeper, but it won't work with me.

He was correct, however, that awareness of atrocities went to the top. That doesn't mean "everyone" committed them.

Frankly, I think Kerry and his band of brothers (pictured below), conducted themselves very honorably. In describing the incident below, Kerry may have committed an atrocity. It's tough to say, though. I appreciate his honesty and thoughtfulness in considering whether it was an atrocity:

As Gardner recalls it, he was in the "tub" above the pilot house with the twin machine guns, and Kerry was in command, when the Navy swift boat came upon a sampan in the darkness. Gardner flashed a searchlight and ordered the craft to stop. Then, he said, he saw a figure rise up over the gunwale with a semiautomatic weapon. Spotting tracers in the sky and fearing an attack, Gardner said, he laced the sampan with bullets, and other crew members fired as well. Gardner recalls a man in the sampan falling overboard, presumably dead.

After the shooting had stopped and Kerry had ordered a cease-fire, Gardner said, the crew found a woman in the sampan who was alive. There was also the boy, dead in the bottom of the boat. Gardner said there is no way to know which crewmate fired the shots that killed the boy, but he said Kerry was in the pilot house and did not fire. Kerry was livid when he emerged, Gardner said.

"Kerry threatened me with a court-martial, screaming at the top of his lungs: `What the hell do you think you're doing? I ought to have you court-martialed,' " Gardner recalled. "Thankfully, the whole crew was there in the middle of it . . . they verified there were weapons being shot at us. That was the end of it."

---- end quote ----

And who said Kerry never reported this?



Above are those crewmates who actually served with Kerry (on the same boat at the same time).


Last edited by sparky on Mon May 10, 2004 4:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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Jeremy Eaton
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Joined: 08 May 2004
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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2004 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm I seem to have been banned from posting in the previous forum.
So I will post here instead.
Greenhat,
Quote:
Gee, the Columbia Journalism review and the Pulitzer. In other words, two groups who know absolutely nothing about the subject matter.

I served in the 1st Battalion, 327th Infantry. And I never heard of these guys. Not a whisper. And I was the unit historian. Now isn't that strange?

As it happens, I have degrees in history, and I have looked over the research done by the Blade. Maybe the Pulitzer people think it is well-done. I don't, and I doubt that any historian would. There are some serious problems in the methodology and verification of the stories.


That doesn't really cut it, and no I don't think it's at all strange that you haven't heard of these guys. I've heard interviews with members of Tiger force. The burden to disprove is on you fully.
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Craig
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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2004 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JasonBinPNW wrote:
sparky wrote:
Big question: Don't you guys just wish NOBODY ever told a soul about civilian massacres when our side does it? Wouldn't that be sweet? We'd be able to do anything we wanted!


No, again, you are over-reaching.

Mr. Kerry stated that this kind of thing was routine and everyone was involved in it.

If it WAS true, and he did nothing to stop it as he witnessed it, then he was deralict in his duties as an officer without exception.

His statements were all encompassing and overly broad. He accused EVERYONE of this type of conduct. That is a blatant lie.
<snip>



Can you provide links to back up your statements above? Especially in relation to your use of "Everyone".
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