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DerbyRed Seaman Recruit
Joined: 29 Aug 2004 Posts: 20 Location: Hope Mills, NC
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 10:48 am Post subject: Searching 4 Bush/Kerry Records |
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Article below attempts to answer some of the FAQs about researching personnel records for the candidates. Sez neither candidate has executed SF 180’s, giving both campaigns “weasel room” in dealing with inquiries re: those records. That surprised me, I thought Dubya had taken the high-road on the SF 180-deal and that was going to be the “last resort” challenge to jfk to get him to do the same. While the reporting is more comprehensive than normal, the whining over Dubya’s records is a whole lot louder than the complaints about access to jfk’s records. Bottom line? Don’t count on either candidate to do much more to rectify the situation . . . they’re not going to take a chance of something in those records turning into the this campaign cycle’s “October Surprise” > > > GBA/cul/dmm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60557-2004Sep29.html
Assembling Full War Records a Challenge
By Michael Dobbs
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, September 30, 2004; Page A07
Although both President Bush and Sen. John F. Kerry have repeatedly said they have made public their complete military service records, neither presidential candidate has yet permitted independent access to original files held in a high-security vault.
The lack of outside verification of the military personnel records of the candidates has made it more difficult for journalists and historians to evaluate their Vietnam War-era service, which has been the subject of lively election-year debate. In Bush's case, Texas Air National Guard officials have also delayed or prevented public access to 30-year-old unit records that could shed light on whether he received favorable treatment from the Guard because of his father's political connections, as his Democratic opponents have alleged.
More than seven months after the White House announced that Bush's records had been "fully released," files continue to trickle out almost weekly from the Pentagon and elsewhere. Some of the newly released records contradict earlier claims by the Bush camp, such as his assertion in a 1999 campaign autobiography that he gave up flying "because the F-102 jet I had trained in was being replaced by a different fighter."
In the past few weeks, both candidates have been forced to deal with questions about what they were doing in the Vietnam War even as they honed their debating points about Iraq and the war on terrorism.
Assembling a full Vietnam War-era record for the two men is complicated by the fact that the files are scattered around more than a dozen repositories. In addition to master personnel files on each candidate, which are at the National Personnel Records Center in St. Louis, researchers have been looking for the records of the units in which they served. Typically, unclassified unit records are available to the public under much less restrictive conditions than individual files.
Both Bush and Kerry have made public hundreds of documents about their military service and posted them on the Internet. At the same time, they have retained control over their personnel records, making it impossible for outsiders to tell whether anything is being held back.
Chad Clanton, a Kerry campaign spokesman, replied to a request for independent verification of Kerry's master personnel file by saying it was unnecessary "since we've already placed John Kerry's entire military file on our Web site." White House spokeswoman Claire Buchan said yesterday that the White House was "working with the Defense Department to accommodate [The Washington Post's] request to independently verify the completeness of the president's personnel records."
An analysis of records released by the White House and the Kerry campaign shows internal discrepancies that raise doubts about whether the full files have been released. Bush aides have made public two versions of the president's master personnel file, one in 2000 and one this February. Each version contains at least half a dozen pages missing from the other, suggesting that neither is complete.
In Kerry's case, it is difficult to tell which documents on his Web site come from his master personnel file. At least one document first posted on the Web site in August -- a recommendation for a Bronze Star -- appears to have come from his personnel file, contradicting earlier assertions by his campaign that everything in the file had already been made public.
Although the St. Louis repository is under the control of the National Archives, officials at the Archives say that the records belong to the military unit that generated them. In practice, they can be released to outsiders only with the permission of the veteran concerned. Such access is usually granted through the signing of a release known as Standard Form 180, a step that neither candidate has so far taken.
Scott Levins, assistant director for military records at the St. Louis repository, said the National Archives made copies of the candidates' master personnel files before temporarily releasing the originals to other government agencies for inspection and copying. He said these authenticated copies are now locked in a vault and can be inspected only with the permission of the originating agency.
Questions about Bush's military records have centered on how he gained a coveted pilot's slot in the Texas Air National Guard in 1968 and why he gave up flying in 1972, more than two years before his six-year term ended. Kerry critics, meanwhile, have focused on how he won the three Purple Hearts that permitted him to return home early from Vietnam.
In part because Kerry served with the Navy rather than the National Guard, his unit records are much more accessible than those of Bush. The Navy maintains a historical center at the Washington Navy Yard where researchers can freely inspect the records of Kerry's Swift boat outfit, Coastal Division 11. The records include after-action reports and unit histories, which have made possible a detailed reconstruction of Kerry's day-to-day activities.
By contrast, National Guard officials say their Vietnam War-era records are sparse and poorly maintained. Because Bush's unit, the 147th Fighter Interceptor Group, was not an active-duty unit, record-keeping was even more informal than in Guard units that served in Vietnam. Until recently, "nobody was interested" in its history, said Travis Evans, a Texas National Guard freedom-of-information officer who has been deluged by requests to access Bush records.
[/b] _________________ "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclination, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams " |
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SangRun Hunter PO1
Joined: 10 Sep 2004 Posts: 462 Location: Zinzinnati
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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I thought Bush executed the execetive order which actually superceded the 180 to greater degree. _________________ Mad as Hell! |
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Dimsdale Captain
Joined: 20 May 2004 Posts: 527 Location: Massachusetts: the belly of the beast
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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From the Chicago Sun-Times,
http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:0FDO-wh7LFsJ:www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-lips27.html+washington+post+kerry+records+6+100&hl=en
Quote: | Plot thickens after checking records
August 27, 2004
BY THOMAS LIPSCOMB
Advertisement
In the midst of the controversy between the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and Kerry campaign representatives about Kerry's service in Vietnam, new questions have arisen.
The Kerry campaign has repeatedly stated that the official naval records prove the truth of Kerry's assertions about his service.
But the official records on Kerry's Web site only add to the confusion. The DD214 form, an official Defense Department document summarizing Kerry's military career posted on johnkerry.com, includes a "Silver Star with combat V."
But according to a U.S. Navy spokesman, "Kerry's record is incorrect. The Navy has never issued a 'combat V' to anyone for a Silver Star."
Naval regulations do not allow for the use of a "combat V" for the Silver Star, the third-highest decoration the Navy awards. None of the other services has ever granted a Silver Star "combat V," either.
Fake claims not uncommon
B.G. Burkett, a Vietnam veteran himself, received the highest award the Army gives to a civilian, the Distinguished Civilian Service Award, for his book Stolen Valor. Burkett pored through thousands of military service records, uncovering phony claims of awards and fake claims of military service. "I've run across several claims for Silver Stars with combat V's, but they were all in fake records," he said.
Burkett recently filed a complaint that led last month to the sentencing of Navy Capt. Roger D. Edwards to 115 days in the brig for falsification of his records.
Kerry's Web site also lists two different citations for the Silver Star. One was issued by the commander in chief of the Pacific Command (CINCPAC), Adm. John Hyland. The other, issued by Secretary of the Navy John Lehman during the Reagan administration, contained some revisions and additional language. "By his brave actions, bold initiative, and unwavering devotion to duty, Lieutenant (j.g.) Kerry reflected great credit upon himself... ."
One award, three citations
But a third citation exists that appears to be the earliest. And it is not on the Kerry campaign Web site. It was issued by Vice Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, commander of U.S. naval forces in Vietnam. This citation lacks the language in the Hyland citation or that added by the Lehman version, but includes another 170 words in a detailed description of Kerry's attack on a Viet Cong ambush, his killing of an enemy soldier carrying a loaded rocket launcher, as well as military equipment captured and a body count of dead enemy.
Maj. Anthony Milavic, a retired Marine Vietnam veteran, calls the issuance of three citations for the same medal "bizarre." Milavic hosts Milinet, an Internet forum popular with the military community that is intended "to provide a forum in military/political affairs."
Normally in the case of a lost citation, Milavec points out, the awardee simply asked for a copy to be sent to him from his service personnel records office where it remains on file. "I have never heard of multi-citations from three different people for the same medal award," he said. Nor has Burkett: "It is even stranger to have three different descriptions of the awardee's conduct in the citations for the same award."
So far, there are also two varying citations for Kerry's Bronze Star, one by Zumwalt and the other by Lehman as secretary of the Navy, both posted on johnkerry.com.
Kerry's Web site also carries a DD215 form revising his DD214, issued March 12, 2001, which adds four bronze campaign stars to his Vietnam service medal. The campaign stars are issued for participation in any of the 17 Department of Defense named campaigns that extended from 1962 to the cease-fire in 1973.
However, according to the Navy spokesman, Kerry should only have two campaign stars: one for "Counteroffensive, Phase VI," and one for "Tet69, Counteroffensive."
94 pages of records unreleased?
Reporting by the Washington Post's Michael Dobbs points out that although the Kerry campaign insists that it has released Kerry's full military records, the Post was only able to get six pages of records under its Freedom of Information Act request out of the "at least a hundred pages" a Naval Personnel Office spokesman called the "full file."
What could that more than 100 pages contain? Questions have been raised about President Bush's drill attendance in the reserves, but Bush received his honorable discharge on schedule. Kerry, who should have been discharged from the Navy about the same time -- July 1, 1972 -- wasn't given the discharge he has on his campaign Web site until July 13, 1978. What delayed the discharge for six years? This raises serious questions about Kerry's performance while in the reserves that are far more potentially damaging than those raised against Bush.
Experts point out that even the official military records get screwed up. Milavic is trying to get mistakes in his own DD214 file corrected. In his opinion, "these entries are not prima facie evidence of lying or unethical behavior on the part of Kerry or anyone else with screwed-up DD214s."
Burkett, who has spent years working with the FBI, Department of Justice and all of the military services uncovering fraudulent files in the official records, is less charitable: "The multiple citations and variations in the official record are reason for suspicion in itself, even disregarding the current swift boat veterans' controversy."
Thomas Lipscomb is chairman of the Center for the Digital Future in New York. |
From a rather interesting summary of the whole Kerry and Swiftee stories in the WaPo (excerpted because they like it that way):
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21239-2004Aug21.html
Quote: | Although Kerry campaign officials insist that they have published Kerry's full military records on their Web site (with the exception of medical records shown briefly to reporters earlier this year), they have not permitted independent access to his original Navy records. A Freedom of Information Act request by The Post for Kerry's records produced six pages of information. A spokesman for the Navy Personnel Command, Mike McClellan, said he was not authorized to release the full file, which consists of at least a hundred pages. |
_________________ Everytime he had a choice, Kerry chose to side with communists rather than the United States. |
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Stevie Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 25 Aug 2004 Posts: 1451 Location: Queen Creek, Arizona
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: Searching 4 Bush/Kerry Records |
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DerbyRed wrote: | That surprised me, I thought Dubya had taken the high-road on the SF 180-deal and that was going to be the “last resort” challenge to jfk to get him to do the same. While the reporting is more comprehensive than normal, the whining over Dubya’s records is a whole lot louder than the complaints about access to jfk’s records. Bottom line? Don’t count on either candidate to do much more to rectify the situation . . . they’re not going to take a chance of something in those records turning into the this campaign cycle’s “October Surprise” > > > GBA/cul/dmm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60557-2004Sep29.html
Assembling Full War Records a Challenge
By Michael Dobbs
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, September 30, 2004; Page A07
Although both President Bush and Sen. John F. Kerry have repeatedly said they have made public their complete military service records, neither presidential candidate has yet permitted independent access to original files held in a high-security vault.
....
More than seven months after the White House announced that Bush's records had been "fully released," files continue to trickle out almost weekly from the Pentagon and elsewhere. Some of the newly released records contradict earlier claims by the Bush camp, such as his assertion in a 1999 campaign autobiography that he gave up flying "because the F-102 jet I had trained in was being replaced by a different fighter."
In the past few weeks, both candidates have been forced to deal with questions about what they were doing in the Vietnam War even as they honed their debating points about Iraq and the war on terrorism.
....
Chad Clanton, a Kerry campaign spokesman, replied to a request for independent verification of Kerry's master personnel file by saying it was unnecessary "since we've already placed John Kerry's entire military file on our Web site." White House spokeswoman Claire Buchan said yesterday that the White House was "working with the Defense Department to accommodate [The Washington Post's] request to independently verify the completeness of the president's personnel records."
An analysis of records released by the White House and the Kerry campaign shows internal discrepancies that raise doubts about whether the full files have been released. Bush aides have made public two versions of the president's master personnel file, one in 2000 and one this February. Each version contains at least half a dozen pages missing from the other, suggesting that neither is complete.
.....
Although the St. Louis repository is under the control of the National Archives, officials at the Archives say that the records belong to the military unit that generated them. In practice, they can be released to outsiders only with the permission of the veteran concerned. Such access is usually granted through the signing of a release known as Standard Form 180, a step that neither candidate has so far taken.
.........
[/b] |
It's my understanding that Bush released his records by executive order.
and we all know that once the 'release' is given, the documents don't automatically pop out of file folders across the country and mysteriously appear on the desks of reporters everywhere.
We know Kerry has not signed the SF 180.
Anyone seen these 'newly released' Bush papers that contradict his reason for not continuing to fly?
What questions has Kerry been 'forced to deal with' about Vietnam in the past few weeks? I missed that.... _________________ Stevie
Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage
morale and undermine the military are saboteurs and should
be arrested, exiled or hanged. |
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wally626 Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 23 Aug 2004 Posts: 85 Location: Yorktown
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Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 12:39 am Post subject: |
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I looked over the Bush Executive Orders last night and did not see one releasing any records, although it could be buried in the text of another record. I did not read them all.
Does some one know what the order number was.
See http://www.archives.gov/federal_register/executive_orders/wbush.html for the list of orders. |
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Becky Seaman
Joined: 24 Aug 2004 Posts: 179 Location: Georgia
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Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 4:01 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | At the White House, press secretary Scott McClellan
said he couldn't say specifically whether Mr. Bush signed
Standard Form 180, but the president did request and release
his own military records in February.
"I don't believe he signed any form, but he did authorize
making his military records available publicly," Mr. McClellan
said. "We have released all the records, and reporters were
allowed to look at his medical records as well." |
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
Published August 18, 2004
http://www.washingtontimes.com/functions/print.php?StoryID=20040818-121345-3874r
My understanding is that Bush authorized (in February 2004?)
the release of all his TANG records using his authority as C-in-C,
not through execution of a 180 and a court ordered
(media under FOIA) the Pentagon to release Bush's records...
but not Kerry's...hence we have additional Bush records, ? pages,
released and ? pages of Kerry's that haven't.
Quote: | Judge orders U.S. to find Bush records
By Associated Press
Thursday, September 16, 2004
WASHINGTON - A federal judge has ordered the Pentagon to
find and make public by next week any unreleased files about
President Bush's Vietnam-era Air National Guard service to
resolve a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit filed by The
Associated Press. |
http://news.bostonherald.com/forums/index.php?board=2;action=display;threadid=2725 _________________ “In the beginning of a change the patriot is a
scarce man, and brave, and hated and
scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid
join him, for then it costs nothing to be a
patriot.”
- Mark Twain |
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