| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
vatar
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 9
|
 Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 4:37 pm Post subject: How many swiftboats were sunk in Vietnam? |
 |
|
| Does anyone know a website that shows this? Based on some preliminary research, I believe that more F-102s crashed during Vietnam due to noncombat related accidents than there were swiftboats sunk due to enemy action. This would seem to debunk the claims that Bush was in no danger because he was not in a combat environment, unlike Kerry. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
mikest
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 377
|
| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 4:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Please say this is satire. Posts like this make this site look silly. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vatar
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 9
|
| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 5:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Not at all. I was very involved with the army's OV-1D Mohawk aircraft, and there are various websites out there the show the final disposition of every single Mohawk aircraft, whether it crashed, was shot down, or simply retired from service. Surely there is something similar for Swift boats.
And F-102s were not all that safe and risk free as some would like to make them out to be.
Another thing you probably haven't heard reported is that Bush spent some 6 times as long on Active Duty as Kerry did. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vatar
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 9
|
| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 5:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I realize this site is for and by swiftvets. My point is not to marginalize the service of swiftboat crews, but I'm sure you guys don't want to marginalize the service of figher pilots either. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mikest
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 377
|
| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 5:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| In 1969 Coastal 11 recieved enemy fire over 130 times. Please don't compare a man who can't even prove he showed up to the men who faced death every day they went on patrol. It really makes you look silly. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vatar
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 9
|
| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 5:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| How does one prove they showed up? Is there some kind of attendance log that is filed on record for 30+ years? And you are still ignoring the fact that Bush was on ACTIVE DUTY for more than 6 times as long as Kerry, are you saying he didn't show up for that either? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vatar
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 9
|
| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 6:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| So far I have found 7 swiftboats that were sunk in Vietnam by enemy fire, 3 by weather with no loss of life, and 1 by friendly fire. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mikest
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 377
|
| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 6:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Typically people will remember the fact that you were there. Doonsbury offered $10,000 for anyone with proof they served with him. To date, that offer is still in effect. And yes, I am saying he did not show up for a large portion of that. Unless you want to call serving on the campaign staff of a family friend serving. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vatar
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 9
|
| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 6:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I served 10 years in the military much more recent than the Vietnam War, and I couldn't tell you if a certain individual attended a particular meeting during any of those 10 years. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mikest
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 377
|
| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 6:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Right. So being a Senators/CIA Chief/Presidents son , the governor of Texas and now the president did not leave any impression on the men who served with him. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vatar
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 9
|
| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 6:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| George H Bush was never a senator, as for CIA Chief/President that came after Vietnam, so at the time he would not have recieved attention or be memorable as the CIA chief's son or President's son. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mikest
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 377
|
| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 7:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
My mistake. Congressman Bush
| Quote: | | Like his father, Prescott Bush, who was elected a Senator from Connecticut in 1952, George became interested in public service and politics. He served two terms as a Representative to Congress from Texas. Twice he ran unsuccessfully for the Senate. Then he was appointed to a series of high-level positions: Ambassador to the United Nations, Chairman of the Republican National Committee, Chief of the U. S. Liaison Office in the People's Republic of China, and Director of the Central Intelligence Agency. |
There have been quotes about people hearin he was coming because of someone influential. Why you would even try and compare Bush and Kerry on this issue is beyond me. Kerry requested Vietnam, Bush specifically checked off the "no foreign deployment" box. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sparky
Former Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546
|
| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 7:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | "How does one prove they showed up? Is there some kind of attendance log that is filed on record for 30+ years? And you are still ignoring the fact that Bush was on ACTIVE DUTY for more than 6 times as long as Kerry, are you saying he didn't show up for that either?" |
I can't believe you're unaware of this issue. The question revolves around the following facts:
- Bush released records that do not show that he attended Guard duty when and where he claimed to (Alabama Air National Guard). Of the records that Bush has released, only a single dental record from Alabama is available.
No evidence of the Flight Inquiry Board that would have been convened when he was suspended from flying. No DD214. No Officer Effectiveness Report (OER) from 1973. No flight logs, among a pilot's most important records. No attendance sheets, photographs, or unit rosters. None. And still zero evidence of any actual duty between May 1972 and April 1973.
- Bush's CO does not recall this Congressman's son ever appearing on base.
- Only one person, John B. "Bill" Calhoun, during that entire period in question says "I served with Bush during that time." But he got the dates wrong. Calhoun's report looks much like a concocted story based on poorly-read media reports.
Calhoun has said he saw Bush 8-10 times between May and October of 1972. (Or was it four to six times?) But as the Washington Post has pointed out, "Calhoun remembers seeing Bush at Dannelly at times in mid-1972 when the White House acknowledges Bush was not pulling Guard duty in Alabama yet; his first drills were in October, according to the White House. White House press secretary Scott McClellan on Friday was at a loss to reconcile the discrepancy..."
Nobody else has come forward, including two officers who were assigned to look for him when he was expected to arrive but who never found him. They distinctly remember their orders to greet him.
"Paul Bishop, a retired Air Force colonel who says he never missed a weekend drill in 27 years with the 187th, told TIME the physical layout of the unit's hangar made it 'virtually impossible' for Bush to have met with Calhoun and for none of the unit's 800 other reservists to have seen him."
- Records obtained under the Freedom of Information Act show that Bush's CO's in Texas thought he was serving in Alabama.
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc9.gif
- Bush was grounded for refusing to take a physical at precisely the time that urinalysis for drugs was implemented. Not surprising, Bush would neither confirm nor deny that he'd ever used drugs before the age of 28. He did deny ever having used them after the age of 28.
Dig deep, look around, find reputable sources (not NewsMax or anything owned by the Unification Church) and you'll confirm the above statements.
As for comparing boats sunk to aircraft crashed, this is absolutely absurd. The swift boats took enemy fire on a regular basis. Bush was never shot at in his life or ever stepped foot in a combat zone. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vatar
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 9
|
| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 8:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | I can't believe you're unaware of this issue. |
I am very aware of this issue.
| Quote: | | Bush released records that do not show that he attended Guard duty when and where he claimed to (Alabama Air National Guard). |
Which DD form is that? It can be hard to prove (or disprove) that you showed up for a few hours on a particular date over 30 years ago. That is not unlike the civilian world. Can you prove that you went to the boss's Wednesday morning meeting even one year ago? Much less 30 years ago.
| Quote: | | No evidence of the Flight Inquiry Board that would have been convened when he was suspended from flying. No DD214. No Officer Effectiveness Report (OER) from 1973. No flight logs, among a pilot's most important records. No attendance sheets, photographs, or unit rosters. None. And still zero evidence of any actual duty between May 1972 and April 1973. |
The Vietnam War was all but over, and the F-102 was in mothballs. They probably didn't care whether or not GWB had let his flight certification lapse.
| Quote: | | Only one person, John B. "Bill" Calhoun, during that entire period in question says "I served with Bush during that time." But he got the dates wrong. Calhoun's report looks much like a concocted story based on poorly-read media reports. |
People can't remember what they had for lunch yesterday, the fact that they can't remember who all was at a meeting over 30 years ago proves that he wasn't there?
| Quote: | | - Bush was grounded for refusing to take a physical at precisely the time that urinalysis for drugs was implemented. |
Didn't take a physical or refused to take a physical? Like I said before, the Vietnam War was all but over and the F-102 was on mothballs. No one cared if F-102 pilots were keeping up with their flight physicals because there was no longer a mission for F-102 pilots.
| Quote: | | As for comparing boats sunk to aircraft crashed, this is absolutely absurd. |
Ok, I will let you tell the families of dead F-102 pilots that their sacrifice was worthless because only recieving combat fire is what counts. No one has yet disputed my claim that more people were killed in F-102 non-combat ACCIDENTS than were killed in swiftboats from enemy fire. To say that only people involved in combat were in any danger is just ignoring the facts. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mikest
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 377
|
| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 10:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Ok, I will let you tell the families of dead F-102 pilots that their sacrifice was worthless because only recieving combat fire is what counts |
Was there a sale on straw today? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
