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Wondering
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 19
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 Posted: Mon May 10, 2004 7:43 pm Post subject: Kerry and his relationship to the VVAW |
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| How long did Kerry stay with the VVAW after they started voting to kill U.S. Senators? |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
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Joined: 07 May 2004
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2004 7:53 pm Post subject: Re: Kerry and his relationship to the VVAW |
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| Wondering wrote: | | How long did Kerry stay with the VVAW after they started voting to kill U.S. Senators? |
He quit the organization right after that conference - the day after, if I remember correctly.
Commendable, actually, as were his arguments that this sort of activity was nothing he wanted to be a part of.
What I'm more interested in is whether or not he reported the assassination discussions to the FBI or some other authority. Not that he had to, there was at least one FBI infiltrator in that conference. But, it would say something positive about his character if he had reported it.
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~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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sparky
Former Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 1:59 am Post subject: |
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| That was fair, NNN. |
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Wondering
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 6:09 am Post subject: Re: Kerry and his relationship to the VVAW |
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| Navy_Navy_Navy wrote: |
He quit the organization right after that conference - the day after, if I remember correctly.
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Good, that would be the right thing to do.
You bring up a good point about the authorities. It would be odd if he came home and told authorities about wrong doings in Vietnam, but not wrong doings at home. |
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boatsturley
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 9
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 6:13 am Post subject: |
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Navy, You obviously haven't paid attention. Kerry was still representing the VVAW in 1972, both at Dartmouth College and at Bryant Park, NYC April 22, 1972...[exactly one year after his testimony that such atrocities were standard procedure.] He wasn't discharged until 1978. from the Navy Reserves. Which means that while he was meeting with enemies of America in 1970, and leading anti-American/ anti-government protests he was violating his oath as an officer and betraying his comrades in arms and his country.
I don't know who you and sparky are, but it is clear that as usual cowards hide behind false names or fabricated images. Sure appears to be a Kerry-Sanders style. Some served their country, a few served themselves.
Michael Turley, BM2, PCF 15, Chu Lai, 1967-'68
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Michael Turley, BM2
PCF "Swift Boat" 15, Chu Lai, DaNang, '67-'68 |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| boatsturley wrote: | I don't know who you and sparky are, but it is clear that as usual cowards hide behind false names or fabricated images. Sure appears to be a Kerry-Sanders style. Some served their country, a few served themselves.
Michael Turley, BM2, PCF 15, Chu Lai, 1967-'68 |
Dear "Boats,"
Please read more of my posts before you judge. 
I'm very much on your side.
I am not cowardly to hide my full name - my support of the war and this President has made me a target of hate mail, libel, a couple of stalkers and threats to my health and well-being since 9-11.
I am just what I say I am - a Navy veteran, married to a career Navy officer and mother of a young sailor.
In the interest of fairness, I reported what I have read from numerous sources to be true of Kerry's participation in the VVAW conference in which the assassination of Senators was discussed. Kerry loudly argued against the scheme and was reported to have resigned from that organization the day after this conference. It's the one thing I've found to be commendable about any of his actions.
Just to be clear.....
I abso-fscking-lutely detest John F'n Kerry and I devote most of my spare time and money to helping him be defeated in the next election.
Thanks, 
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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eecee
Ensign
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 52
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 6:48 am Post subject: |
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| boatsturley wrote: | Navy, You obviously haven't paid attention. Kerry was still representing the VVAW in 1972, both at Dartmouth College and at Bryant Park, NYC April 22, 1972...[exactly one year after his testimony that such atrocities were standard procedure.] He wasn't discharged until 1978. from the Navy Reserves. Which means that while he was meeting with enemies of America in 1970, and leading anti-American/ anti-government protests he was violating his oath as an officer and betraying his comrades in arms and his country.
I don't know who you and sparky are, but it is clear that as usual cowards hide behind false names or fabricated images. Sure appears to be a Kerry-Sanders style. Some served their country, a few served themselves.
Michael Turley, BM2, PCF 15, Chu Lai, 1967-'68 |
Do you know of any reservists who have campaigned for public office? Who hold public office? Who are authors or journalists? Who have television or radio shows? Who write letters to the editor? Who appear at political rallies? Do you think any of them have criticized the government during their time in the reserves? |
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boatsturley
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 9
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 8:06 am Post subject: |
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I repete for those who are too dense to get it. John Kerry met with enemy agents in 1970, and testified falsely April 22nd, 1971, before the Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs. On April 18th, he appeared on "Meet the Press" with his bogus Vietnam Vet henchman Al Hubbard, and stated that he had commited war atrocities. The Kanasas City, MO meeting was held in November 1971. Kerry denies being there, but minutes of the meeting and FBI reports show that he was indeed there. Kerry claims he resigned from the VVAW in December of 1971, but he represented himself as a VVAW member while speaking at Dartmouth College on January 11, 1972. Again January 25, 1972, he represents the VVAW at the "People's State of the Union" in Washington, DC. Again on April 22, 1972...[exactly one year to the day after his lies before Congress] Kerry led the VVAW "Emergency March For Peace" in Bryant Park.
Kerry claims a lot of things, but his actions speak louder than his fabrications and lies.
POWs held by the communist North Vietnamese communists were told that Kerry and the anti-war groups were proof of American atrocities and war crimes.
The Communist Daily World featured many Kerry activities, and front paged Kerry publicly speaking in support of the PRGs [VC] seven point plan.
All the while Kerry was a sworn officer of the U.S.Navy reserves and NOT a journalist, nor a government pundit. Sorry HanoiJohn, but you pathetic attempt to down play the damage you did and hide your bloody hands will not wash with those of us who know what you are.
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Michael Turley, BM2
PCF "Swift Boat" 15, Chu Lai, DaNang, '67-'68 |
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Hesiod
Former Member
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 49
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| boatsturley wrote: | I repete for those who are too dense to get it. John Kerry met with enemy agents in 1970, and testified falsely April 22nd, 1971, before the Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs. On April 18th, he appeared on "Meet the Press" with his bogus Vietnam Vet henchman Al Hubbard, and stated that he had commited war atrocities. The Kanasas City, MO meeting was held in November 1971. Kerry denies being there, but minutes of the meeting and FBI reports show that he was indeed there. Kerry claims he resigned from the VVAW in December of 1971, but he represented himself as a VVAW member while speaking at Dartmouth College on January 11, 1972. Again January 25, 1972, he represents the VVAW at the "People's State of the Union" in Washington, DC. Again on April 22, 1972...[exactly one year to the day after his lies before Congress] Kerry led the VVAW "Emergency March For Peace" in Bryant Park.
Kerry claims a lot of things, but his actions speak louder than his fabrications and lies.
POWs held by the communist North Vietnamese communists were told that Kerry and the anti-war groups were proof of American atrocities and war crimes.
The Communist Daily World featured many Kerry activities, and front paged Kerry publicly speaking in support of the PRGs [VC] seven point plan.
All the while Kerry was a sworn officer of the U.S.Navy reserves and NOT a journalist, nor a government pundit. Sorry HanoiJohn, but you pathetic attempt to down play the damage you did and hide your bloody hands will not wash with those of us who know what you are. |
So many lies. So little time.
1. Kerry met with BOTH sides of the peace negotiations in Paris. I suppose you could classify them as "enemy agents," but saying it that way sounds like he was a spy.
2. I note you didn't say that John Kerry "lied" before the Senate Foreign Relatioins Committee in 1971. That's because you know he didn't lie. It turns out that, years later, some of the Winter Soldiers testimony that Kerry related was indeed "false." But Kerry had no reason to believe that, at the time.
3. John Kerry, himself, went after Al Hubbard within the VVAW organization, accusing him of lying about his military record and being too radical. To say he was his "henchman" is a bald misstatement. Kerry was angry at Hubbard for lying, and tried to kick him out of VVAW. Kerry lost that struggle, and that was one reason, among others, he quit the leadership of the VVAW.
4. Kerry says he doesn't remember being at the Kansas City VVAW meeting in November 1971, but accepts that he probably was based on other witnesses. Maybe that's a fudge. But what is not in doubt is that at that meeting he argued strenusouly against the radicalization of the VVAW, and abruptly quit the leadership, aloing with a few others. He did say he would speak out against the war, on VVAW's behalf. But he severed all formal ties with the organization at that meeting. That's why he gave speeches. Interesting enough, many VVAW members resented the fact that Kerry was holding himself out as a VVAW member when he wasn't formally affiliated with them any longer.
5. The Vietnamese didn't need John Kerry to prove that U.S. soldiers had committed atrocities in Vietnam. All they had to do was read about My Lai. Why don't you Vietnam vets rant and rave about Lt. Calley like you do about Kerry? He did a hell of a lot more damage to the war effort than Kerry ever did.
You also have to remember that the country was already firmal AGAINST the war before anybody had even heard of John Kerry.
I suggest you get over it and move on with your lives. |
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hist/student
Lieutenant
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 243
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 11:13 am Post subject: |
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unabashed comprehensive retraction
Last edited by hist/student on Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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eecee
Ensign
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 52
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| boatsturley wrote: | | All the while Kerry was a sworn officer of the U.S.Navy reserves and NOT a journalist, nor a government pundit. |
I didn't ask you whether John Kerry was a journalist or a "government pundit" while in the reserves. I asked if you knew of any reservists who were, or who participated in political activities or rallies, or otherwise criticized the government. |
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 4:53 pm Post subject: Re: Kerry and his relationship to the VVAW |
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| Navy_Navy_Navy wrote: |
What I'm more interested in is whether or not he reported the assassination discussions to the FBI or some other authority. Not that he had to, there was at least one FBI infiltrator in that conference. But, it would say something positive about his character if he had reported it. |
Actually, he was a commissioned Naval Officer. He was duty and legally bound to report that meeting and he did not (infiltrator or not, he didn't know that, and could not assume it).
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Hesiod wrote: |
1. Kerry met with BOTH sides of the peace negotiations in Paris. I suppose you could classify them as "enemy agents," but saying it that way sounds like he was a spy. |
Point is that it was illegal for him to meet with one side. A violation of US law and the UCMJ.
| Quote: | | 2. I note you didn't say that John Kerry "lied" before the Senate Foreign Relatioins Committee in 1971. That's because you know he didn't lie. It turns out that, years later, some of the Winter Soldiers testimony that Kerry related was indeed "false." But Kerry had no reason to believe that, at the time. |
They didn't take the oath stating that the testimony was the truth, Kerry did.
| Quote: | | 4. Kerry says he doesn't remember being at the Kansas City VVAW meeting in November 1971, but accepts that he probably was based on other witnesses. Maybe that's a fudge. But what is not in doubt is that at that meeting he argued strenusouly against the radicalization of the VVAW, and abruptly quit the leadership, aloing with a few others. He did say he would speak out against the war, on VVAW's behalf. But he severed all formal ties with the organization at that meeting. That's why he gave speeches. Interesting enough, many VVAW members resented the fact that Kerry was holding himself out as a VVAW member when he wasn't formally affiliated with them any longer. |
After years of claiming that he wasn't at the meeting. And still having failed in his duty as a Citizen and a Naval Officer to report the meeting.
| Quote: | | 5. The Vietnamese didn't need John Kerry to prove that U.S. soldiers had committed atrocities in Vietnam. All they had to do was read about My Lai. Why don't you Vietnam vets rant and rave about Lt. Calley like you do about Kerry? He did a hell of a lot more damage to the war effort than Kerry ever did. |
How do you know we didn't? And it wasn't Kerry's comments about warcrimes that motivated the North Vietnamese and kept them in the war. It was the effect of those comments on the US Population and the will to finish a war that was won that kept North Vietnam in the fight. Don't apply your reasoning to other cultures. Learn how they reason.
| Quote: | You also have to remember that the country was already firmal AGAINST the war before anybody had even heard of John Kerry.
I suggest you get over it and move on with your lives. |
Right after John F. Kerry gets over it and stops claiming that his Vietnam service in any way qualifies him to be Commander in Chief, and right after he is convicted of treason.
Btw, the claim that the country was already firmly against the war before anyone heard of Kerry? Is very questionable.
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Navy_Navy_Navy
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Joined: 07 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 7:01 pm Post subject: Re: Kerry and his relationship to the VVAW |
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| Greenhat wrote: | | Navy_Navy_Navy wrote: |
What I'm more interested in is whether or not he reported the assassination discussions to the FBI or some other authority. Not that he had to, there was at least one FBI infiltrator in that conference. But, it would say something positive about his character if he had reported it. |
Actually, he was a commissioned Naval Officer. He was duty and legally bound to report that meeting and he did not (infiltrator or not, he didn't know that, and could not assume it). |
Oops, I guess I didn't phrase that very clearly.
I intended to convey that John Kerry didn't have to report the assassination discussion to the FBI in order for the government to know about it.
Yes, duty, honor and the law should certainly have called for him to report this conspiracy to assassinate pro-war Congressmen.
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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sparky
Former Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Kerry met with BOTH sides of the peace negotiations in Paris. I suppose you could classify them as "enemy agents," but saying it that way sounds like he was a spy. |
Excellent point, Hesiod. These guys just love trying to sucker people!
Greenhate says: | Quote: | | They didn't take the oath stating that the testimony was the truth, Kerry did. |
They did formally announce that they would take the oath if their testimony was ever asked before a formal body capable of administering an oath. "Kerry did" because he was afforded that opportunity. I personally would have preferred that they all had been given that opportunity by Congress.
Hesiod asked: "Why don't you Vietnam vets rant and rave about Lt. Calley like you do about Kerry? He did a hell of a lot more damage to the war effort than Kerry ever did."
Simple. Because the atrocities don't matter as much as publicly reporting them and publicizing them. If the public hadn't known about the atrocities, support for the war would have been much greater and we might have won it (so they believe anyway). Conservatives have an undemocratic set of core beliefs so an informed public is, in their minds, an obstacle to greatness.
This is one lesson conservatives learned. Later wars had much better control over journalists and more effective censorship, especially Desert Storm and Grenada.
And Greenhat, you don't know that Kerry didn't report that meeting to the FBI or that Kerry wasn't aware that there was an FBI agent there with them. |
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