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dmackto
Rear Admiral
Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 719
Location: Florida
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 Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 7:02 pm Post subject: Help with SmokingGun Article |
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I need some help in debating a liberal friend. He says he doesn't believe SBVT claims because of this from Smoking Gun:
| Quote: | | AUGUST 20--The broadside against John Kerry's war record is particularly bizarre in light of what one of the leading bomb throwers had to say about the Democrat while both served in Vietnam. George Elliott, a key member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth who appears in the anti-Kerry group's virulent TV commercial, recommended Kerry for a Bronze Star in 1969. In the below Navy report, Elliott, a lieutenant commander, recounts how Kerry was "highly courageous in the face of enemy fire" during a fight on the Bay Hap river in March 1969. During that skirmish, Elliott noted, Kerry dodged sniper fire to save a colleague who was knocked overboard when a mine detonated. In a March 1969 evaluation, Elliott reported that Kerry was involved in "several enemy initiated fire fights" and "exhibited all of the traits desired of an officer in a combat environment." A December 1969 fitness report was equally laudatory, with Elliott giving Kerry the highest possible grade available ("Is not exceeded") in most categories, including loyalty and moral courage. (5 pages) |
Can someone help me with the truth behind this piece?
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Deborah
The FROZEN CHICKEN Journal
This is no time for ease and comfort. It is the time to dare and endure.
- Winston Churchill |
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one more captins mast
LCDR
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 438
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 7:16 pm Post subject: edit |
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my self edit and delete of my own over the top,
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the strange mr aj |
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Dimsdale
Captain
Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 527
Location: Massachusetts: the belly of the beast
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| Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Definition:
1. [adj] infectious; having the ability to cause disease
2. [adj] harsh or corrosive in tone; "an acerbic tone piercing otherwise flowery prose"; "a barrage of acid comments"; "her acrid remarks make her many enemies"; "bitter words"; "blistering criticism"; "caustic jokes about political assassination, talk-show hosts and medical ethics"; "a sulfurous denunciation"
3. [adj] extremely poisonous or injurious; producing venom; "venomous snakes"; "a virulent insect bite"
Synonyms: acerb, acerbic, acid, acrid, bitter, blistering, caustic, deadly, highly infective, sulfurous, sulphurous, toxic, unpleasant, venomous, vitriolic |
I don't see any of this "virulence" in any SBVT publication, but I do see it from Kerry and the Dems. When Dems accuse you of doing something, it is usually to divert from the fact that they themselves are doing it. It is the Clinton method of politicking.
As for the charge, I defer to the more knowledgable, but I think Elliot relied on AA's written by Kerry himself. Elliot wasn't at any of the action sites if I recall correctly.
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Everytime he had a choice, Kerry chose to side with communists rather than the United States. |
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dmackto
Rear Admiral
Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 719
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 7:26 pm Post subject: Re: edit |
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| one more captins mast wrote: | | my self edit and delete of my own over the top, |
Mr. Aj, Your posts usually leave me a little befuddled and today is no expection.
I'm trying to track down a statement SBVT made in rebuttal of the Globe story back in August. Anyone with a link please post it.
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Deborah
The FROZEN CHICKEN Journal
This is no time for ease and comfort. It is the time to dare and endure.
- Winston Churchill |
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dmackto
Rear Admiral
Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 719
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Dimsdale wrote: |
I don't see any of this "virulence" in any SBVT publication, but I do see it from Kerry and the Dems. When Dems accuse you of doing something, it is usually to divert from the fact that they themselves are doing it. It is the Clinton method of politicking.
As for the charge, I defer to the more knowledgable, but I think Elliot relied on AA's written by Kerry himself. Elliot wasn't at any of the action sites if I recall correctly. |
I think I read that too Dimsdale, but I need to find a source I can refer to when I am battling this friend. He is dean of libraries at a major university and can usually lay his hands on a an obscure document that proves his point in under 2.2 seconds. In regards to SBVT all he could come up with to back up his opinions was this smokingun piece. That in and of itself says a whole lot but I want to shut him down completely and make him face his own bias.
(edited to replace "leftists" with Dimsdale, who know if you typed Democrats the forum automatically changed it to leftists!) 
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Deborah
The FROZEN CHICKEN Journal
This is no time for ease and comfort. It is the time to dare and endure.
- Winston Churchill |
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carpro
Admin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 1176
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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Almost too easy.
All of Elliotts onfo about the March 69 incident is based on after action reports Kerry wrote.
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"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service." |
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dmackto
Rear Admiral
Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 719
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| carpro wrote: | Almost too easy.
All of Elliotts onfo about the March 69 incident is based on after action reports Kerry wrote. |
Thats what I thought Capro. Can you point me to the statement SBVT put out after the Globe story ran and/or the AAR?
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Deborah
The FROZEN CHICKEN Journal
This is no time for ease and comfort. It is the time to dare and endure.
- Winston Churchill |
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Will
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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Deborah,
Here's the real story on the fitness reports from the home page:
http://www.swiftvets.com/staticpages/index.php?page=Fitreps
On the Bronze Star incident, the Epilogue to UFC has a summary of that which includes events after the publication and "Unanswered Questions for Kerry".
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USMC Vietnam Vet
Retired O-6, USMCR |
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dmackto
Rear Admiral
Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 719
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Will wrote: | Deborah,
Here's the real story on the fitness reports from the home page:
http://www.swiftvets.com/staticpages/index.php?page=Fitreps
On the Bronze Star incident, the Epilogue to UFC has a summary of that which includes events after the publication and "Unanswered Questions for Kerry". |
I have that and didn't even think to look there. Thanks Will.
_________________
Deborah
The FROZEN CHICKEN Journal
This is no time for ease and comfort. It is the time to dare and endure.
- Winston Churchill |
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Tom Poole
Vice Admiral
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 914
Location: America
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| Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| dmackto wrote: | | ...help me with the truth... |
Here's my two cents worth. Advise your friend that because Elliot was not an eye witness to our hero's brave deeds, he had to rely on reports written and submitted to him. Oh, by the way, be sure to point out that our brave hero wrote all those reports upon which his medals are based. And, our hero's Purple Hearts were requested and justified by none other than our brave hero.
Because your friend probably won't be impressed, just tell him to judge our hero's character by the men he now associates with (as opposed to the real band of brothers who have always rejected him):
McAuliffe, Terry (Global Crossing)
Lockhart, Joe (coordinated a forgery)
Carville, James (Clinton character assassin)
Barnes, Ben (Sharpstown, Texas Lottery, real estate)
Harkin, Tom (lied about being in Vietnam
Ted Kennedy, Ted (Chappaquiddick)
Biden, Joe (college cheating and plagiarism)
Rather, Dan (participated in forgery, Westmoreland, 1988 veterans, Marine lie)
Mapes, Mary (orchestrated a forgery)
Burkett, Bill (effected a forgery)
Clinton, Bill (Lewinski scandal)
Clinton, Hillary (Whitewater-gate, Foster)
Fonda, Jane (communist aid, comfort)
Soros, George (billionaire socialist, unscrupulous)
Moore, Michael (propagandist millionaire, liar)
If he's still not impressed, advise him of our hero's platform and some serious questions:
No WMD’s (when?)
Allow inspectors to finish (if no WMDs, what’re they looking for?)
The occupation’s going badly (what’d you expect)
Iraq is Vietnam (only because of Kerry)
Rejoin community of nations (military control by the UN, aka France, Germany)
Reporting for duty (I’m a vet, I’m tough, I earned 5 medals)
Christmas in Cambodia is seared, seared (but you admitted it’s a lie)
NOT in Kansas City (the FBI says you were there)
NOT in the same boat (Gardner? Schacte? Silly since they operated in packs)
NOT medals, ribbons (either way, its disgraceful)
Oh, I dunno, six, seven, eight, nine (did you take them from the bag?)
Someone else’s medals (whose? Were they fake too?)
Nobody cares about what happened 35 years ago (except you, apparently)
I was in Vietnam (but your band of brothers asked you to leave)
I was a hero (but your band of brothers say you cheated and they proved it)
Navy records prove I was a hero (but you wrote the records, remember?)
I earned 5 medals (all five were very questionable, three were outright fakes)
Bush was AWOL (no he wasn’t, no proof, it’s just another lie)
Bush was a draft dodger (no he wasn’t, no proof, it’s just another lie)
Woulda, shoulda, coulda (would, should and could NOT)
Wrong, wrong, wrong (right, right, right)
Liar, liar, pants on fire (no proof, the only liar is the senator)
Quicker, faster, longer, better, shorter, tougher, more, less, tougher, gentler (BS)
More trash doing dirty work (you mean like registering dead people in Ohio?)
Vast right-wing conspiracy (Surely, you’re more clever than Hillary)
Move on (we’d like to but you’re stuck on this hero stuff)
Get over it (we are, why can’t you give up the hero stuff?)
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poseidon
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 20 Aug 2004
Posts: 97
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| dmackto wrote: | | carpro wrote: | Almost too easy.
All of Elliotts onfo about the March 69 incident is based on after action reports Kerry wrote. |
Thats what I thought Capro. Can you point me to the statement SBVT put out after the Globe story ran and/or the AAR? |
Elliot's affidavit in response to Globe Article
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John Kerry....Betraying America since 1971!!! |
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carpro
Admin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 1176
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| dmackto wrote: | | carpro wrote: | Almost too easy.
All of Elliotts onfo about the March 69 incident is based on after action reports Kerry wrote. |
Thats what I thought Capro. Can you point me to the statement SBVT put out after the Globe story ran and/or the AAR? |
Even a copy of the AAR won't be much help. Kerry's name as author is not on it anywhere except in code. You have to know how to read the code.
It is extensively discussed here
http://www2.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10771&start=0
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"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service." |
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dmackto
Rear Admiral
Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 719
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks everyone.
I just emailed him 3 pages of information including pdfs and links to sources.
That'll get to the librarian in him.
Mwahhahahaaaa 
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Deborah
The FROZEN CHICKEN Journal
This is no time for ease and comfort. It is the time to dare and endure.
- Winston Churchill |
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coldwarvet
Admiral
Joined: 03 Jun 2004
Posts: 1125
Location: Minnetonka, MN
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| Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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This could all be put to bed if Kerry signed the 180 form.
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Defender of the honor of those in harms way keeping us out of harms way.
"Peace is our Profession"
Strategic Air Command - Motto
USAF 75-79 Security Police |
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rbshirley
Founder
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 394
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| Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 4:41 am Post subject: Re: Help with SmokingGun Article |
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| dmackto wrote: |
I need some help in debating a liberal friend. He
says he doesn't believe SBVT claims because of ... |
Deborah ....
The two key elements are "how to read a fitness report" and the fact that
Kerry wrote the after action report that was used as the sole source to
justify his final Purple Heart and the Bronze Star. Eyewitness accounts of
other sailors on this mission contridict the report, which they had not seen
until just this year.
As we saw on Scarborough tonight, the Kerry surrogates try to discount
that Kerry wrote this report. It was the key missing piece that the WaPo
article used to make the statement that the awards were only "uncertain"
and not completely proven to be exaggerations or fraudulent.
Tom Lipscomb, a respected journalist, has investigated the originator of
this report and has conclusively proven that Kerry wrote it. Read his
investigative article at:
http://www2.swiftvets.com/article.php?story=200410010639384
That should make your intellectual librarian put on his thinking cap!!
--------------------------- USCG Cutter where Kerry wrote his report ---------------------------
Bob S ... OinC PCF-45
http://www.pcf45.com
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