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William
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Joined: 07 Sep 2004
Posts: 37
Location: Northcoast CA
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 Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 4:40 pm Post subject: Why do we believe Kerry's Paris meeting lie? |
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I’ve been mulling this over for a while and thought I’d get myself in trouble by throwing it out here…
Hypothesis: Kerry lied about meeting Viet Cong/Vietnamese delegations while he was in Paris.
Supporting data:
As far as I have found with a quick look (UFC pp 126 – 129, Google – "Kerry Paris 1970", “Kerry Paris 1971”) the ONLY source for Kerry’s meeting is the self-aggrandizing statements of a pathological liar… Kerry!
Kerry said he was in Cambodia Christmas 1968.
Kerry said he met with UN Security Council the week before the vote on GWII.
Kerry said he was in Safwan, Iraq for the signing of the cease-fire in 1991.
On and on and on…. Kerry lies about where he was; who he met with.
We all know reflexively that virtually all of Kerry’s “Forest Gump” claims are fabrications.
So, why do we believe his claim to have met with the Vietnamese delegates in Paris? Such a claim would have served his purpose at the time. Now it serves our purpose to believe him on this one claim because it furthers (but isn’t necessary for) our belief that Kerry was/is a traitor… but are we being a bit inconsistent here?
Is there any independent corroborating evidence that Kerry met with the enemy, except in his own sick mind? |
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FF1047
Lieutenant
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 222
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 6:20 pm Post subject: the FBI ... |
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the FBI records cover this ...
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Navy_Navy_Navy
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Joined: 07 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, it's far more than John Kerry's claims about who he met with - in fact, he repeats that he "met with both sides," which implies that he met with our delegation and with the North Vietnamese delegation.
Instead, what that means is that he met with the delegates from the North Vietnamese government and one of the leaders of the Vietnamese communist party.
The FBI has released their files about Kerry's two meetings in Paris and it looks like more meetings may be uncovered as anti-Kerry people continue to dig.
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Hondo
LCDR
Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 423
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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Now, in this particular case, for once Kerry wasn't lying. Technically, he did meet with representatives from "both sides".
He met with our enemies from the north side of the DMZ. He also met with our enemies from the south side of the DMZ. Both sides.
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"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war, is worse."
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William
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 07 Sep 2004
Posts: 37
Location: Northcoast CA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 3:04 am Post subject: |
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Anybody have a source, or a citation in the FBI files?
I've looked through Beatrice1000's resource lists.
I've haven't been through all the FBI files, but I've scanned more that 800 pages in Sections 1, 5, and 9 at wintersoldier.com.
I've found independent conformation of Al Hubbard's Paris trip in Nov 1971.
But, all I can find on Kerry is a report of a Denver Post article of 25 August citing Kerry’s speech at a VVAW meeting of 20-29 Aug 1971, at CSU, Fort Collins, in which Kerry said he had just returned from Paris where he talked with NV delegates (Section 5, page 230.) He doesn’t appear to have mentioned this at the famous November Kansas City VVAW meetings, although Hubbard's Paris visit comes up again and again.
We all know Kerry is a pathological liar! His record is replete with examples of his claims to have done things and been places that he hasn’t.
With NavyChief's hot new story, this may not be the best time to bring this up, but could we trust his veracity here just because this Kerry tale serves our purposes? Shouldn’t we be looking for independent conformation? Or has this really been done already and I just missed it?
Of course, Kerry can’t deny it now. And it would be so much more Shakespearian if he was lying… Hoist on his own petard! |
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redwood
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William
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 07 Sep 2004
Posts: 37
Location: Northcoast CA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 4:46 am Post subject: |
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The first mention of John Kerry in the FBI VVAW files occurs in Section 1, page 100 where Kerry is listed as a scheduled speaker in a flier for Operation RAW, 4-7 Sep 1970.
There is no mention of Kerry’s purported Paris meeting with Vietnamese delegates in late May 1970, before he joined the VVAW in June 1970. (These are VVAW files, not Kerry files)
There are two mentions of Kerry and Paris in the 2124 pages of Sections 1, 2, 4-9, which cover the period of 1967 through November 1971.
Excerpt from FBI report, Denver, CO, 3 Sep 1971, page 15. posted at wintersoldier.com, FBI HQ 100-448092, Section 5, page 230:
| Quote: | The August 26, 1971, issue of “The Denver Post”
contained an article concerning activities at the National
Student Association (NSA) Congress being held at CSU,
Ft. Collins, Colorado, August 20 – 29, 1971. The article
indicated that John Kerry, 28, from Waltham, Massachusetts
one of the leaders of a national group called VVAW, spoke
to students at the Congress on August 25, 1971. Kerry
suggested that American GI’s could voluntarily return
to Vietnam and help rebuild the country. According to
the article, Kerry indicated that he had just returned
from a trip to Paris, France, to talk with delegates
at the peace talks, including those from North Vietnam.
He indicated that as far as the North Vietnamese are
concerned, “Everything is on the table,” and that if the
United States would set a definite date for withdrawal
of troops, the prisoners of war would be released and
negotiations could start. He characterized the Nixon
administration as “absolutely immoral, and intends to
play out the war.” |
Excerpt of FBI teletype message of 12 Nov 1971 posted at wintersoldier.com FBI HQ 100-448092, Section 9, page 91:
| Quote: | | …it was learned at regional VVAW convention, Norman, Oklahoma, Nov. five – seven last that John Kerry and Al Hubbard, members of executive committee, VVAW, were planning to travel to Paris, France, week of Nov. one five – twenty next for talks with North Vietnamese peace delegation. …[redacted]… to pay Hubbard’s expenses for his trip to Paris. |
But, numerous further descriptions of the VVAW Kansas City meeting of 12-15 Nov 1971 make it clear that Al Hubbard was in Paris at that time, while Kerry was at the Kansas City meeting. (Section 9, pages 57, 98, 137, 145, 153, 173, 230, 231)
The hypothesis stands: the ONLY source for Kerry’s purported Paris meeting(s) is the uncorroborated statements of a pathological liar. |
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kate
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Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 1891
Location: Upstate, New York
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 5:44 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | members of executive committee, VVAW, were planning to travel to Paris, France, week of Nov. one five – twenty next |
would have been after the Kansas City meeting
Hubbard made it to the Kansas City Meeting
See this thread in our Winter Soldier Forum
Kansas City <> VVAW Meeting <> November 12 - 14, 1971
Extracted documents from FBI files
http://www2.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=64984#64984
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William
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Posts: 37
Location: Northcoast CA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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Oops, I misspoke when I said:
| Quote: | | But, numerous further descriptions of the VVAW Kansas City meeting of 12-15 Nov 1971 make it clear that Al Hubbard was in Paris at that time, while Kerry was at the Kansas City meeting. (Section 9, pages 57, 98, 137, 145, 153, 173, 230, 231) |
What I should have said was that:
| Quote: | | ...Hubbard was in Paris at the time of the U of Oklahoma meeting (5-7 Nov 1971)... |
Hubbard reportedly returned 12 Nov 1971, in time for the Kansas City meeting. He is reported as saying at that meeting that he went to Paris "alone" and was the only VVAW to meet with Vietnamese delegates (See all those citations above and wintersoldier.com FBI Files, Section 10, pages 2-14, especially page 3)
The FBI file source I gave for Kerry AND Hubbard planning a trip to Paris is the only one of many iterations of reports of plans for a Paris trip in Nov 1971 that mentions Kerry, all the rest mention only Hubbard. Kerry was at the U of Oklahoma meeting and may have been the original source for this one report.
It is obvious that you, kate, are far more familiar with the FBI files than I am, but I am sure you would not suggest that Kerry and Hubbard might have gone to Paris together AFTER the Kansas City split in the VVAW!
I want to be clear what I am getting at here:
1. NavyChief and others have found undeniably authentic, primary, contemporary documents proving that the political arms of the VC and NV used their delegations to the Paris peace conference to coordinate with and to subvert the peace movement in the US, including the VVAW.
2. There are undeniable, primary, contemporary sources for Kerry, and the VVAW, espousing the exact political objectives put forth in those plans such as the Congressional Record.
3. The only primary evidence for Kerry meeting with the enemy in Paris is Kerry’s own claims in the Fulbright hearings (right?) and elsewhere (?). I haven’t read them, but I think “Tour” and the Boston Globe biography give secondary, non-contemporary evidence of the May 1970 Paris incident.
The FBI reports are only tertiary hearsay evidence at best; an FBI agent reporting what a source said he heard or saw.
So we are relying only on the word of a pathalogical liar, and second and third hand hints in FBI documents to establish this link in Kerry’s treason. Not good enough in the real world.
IF there is primary evidence of Kerry’s meeting the enemy in Paris, it might actually be just barely possible to advance a charge of treason/14th amendment disqualification against him. I’d sure like to see that, but I don’t yet see the absolutely perfect case that would be necessary to get action on such a politically explosive charge! |
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kate
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Posts: 1891
Location: Upstate, New York
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 1:12 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | but I am sure you would not suggest that Kerry and Hubbard might have gone to Paris together AFTER the Kansas City split in the VVAW! |
agreed...cant imagine that either....
one reference in the FBI reports is , as you cite
| Quote: | | report of a Denver Post article of 25 August citing Kerry’s speech at a VVAW meeting of 20-29 Aug 1971, at CSU, Fort Collins, in which Kerry said he had just returned from Paris where he talked with NV delegates |
there is another referrence in the FBI reports , cited in Gerald Nicosia's article...IIRC, in that one he's referring to the earlier trip.....noted in this thread
Veteran In Conflict Nicosia article on the VVAW & Kerry
http://www2.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=103838#103838
I do see what point you are trying to make, and it certainly is an interesting take. Perhaps answers lie within Kerry's personal FBI files, which he has received. Taking that further, more likely in CIA files for what actually may have occured IN Paris.
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Last edited by kate on Sat Oct 30, 2004 1:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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William
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Joined: 07 Sep 2004
Posts: 37
Location: Northcoast CA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 1:26 am Post subject: |
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kate,
Exactly! FBI was strictly limited to domestic affairs back then. CIA, NSA, others would have been watching Paris and the "peace talks" (that just sticks in my craw for some reason). There is a photo I keep running into of what looks like six American anti-war types, including one that looks like he could be Hubbard, out there on the internet. I can't imagine that the CIA, or someone, would not have a photo of everyone who met with the VC/NV delegates!
I still like the pure evil symmetry of Kerry having to admit he lied about his meetings in Paris, or admit he committed treason! |
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kate
Admin
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Posts: 1891
Location: Upstate, New York
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 1:52 am Post subject: |
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wonder where some declassified CIA -or- DOD files may be for Paris. I recently scanned through 3000+ pages of CIA files from Vietnam. These were from the JFK & LBJ libraries. They are out there somewhere...
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William
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 07 Sep 2004
Posts: 37
Location: Northcoast CA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 2:10 am Post subject: |
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...And after Kerry's fantasy of the presidency is dashed by a landslide next Tuesday, I hope this group continues to work to see that he is removed from the senate!
Let’s find primary evidence for the last leg of the case to prove Kerry’s treason! |
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redwood
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Posts: 61
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