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JB Stone
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 Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:34 am Post subject: VETERANS DAY, 2004.... |
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Then and Now...
| Quote: | I got this today and found it interesting how the old CW4 remembered how we were referred to years ago thanks in large part to John Kerry. The Swift Boat Vets and POW’s for Truth have done a lot to dispel that brand that Kerry gave us.
Hello T
On Veterans Day this Thursday, November 11th we will honor all those service members and their families that have served and sacrificed before us. We deeply respect and admire the dedication and selfless service of all combat veterans.
Task Force 185th Aviation would like to dedicate our success here in Iraq to the Vietnam Helicopter Pilots, crewmen and all support people that developed the basics of our modern day Army Aviation doctrine. Thanks to our predecessors we have the most modern high tech aircraft, we have tried and true tactics, techniques and procedures and we have the proven skills to accomplish our mission. When we arrived in Iraq we were more than prepared for the challenge.
In contrast the helicopter pilots of Vietnam were young men that went from high school to flight school and then straight to Vietnam. The average age of a helicopter pilot in Vietnam was in their early 20's and the concept of helicopters in combat was a novelty. 35 years later, the average age of TF 185th pilots is 34 and the average flight experience is almost 3,000 hours. Despite their inexperience, the Vietnam era pilots were fearless and innovative as they adapted and developed ways to utilize the helicopter in combat.
The 185th is mostly a National Guard and Reserve task force. While most Vietnam Veterans have long been retired, 10% of our pilots are Vietnam "old timers" in their mid 50's. Over the years these veterans along with many others have been our mentors and role models as we trained and prepared for combat.
The enemy in Vietnam was more ferocious, smarter, and dedicated. Iraqi insurgents are cowards, picking on the innocent, or using hit and run tactics to avoid a fight. The Viet Cong may have used hit and run tactics, but they were deliberate in their prosecution of the war. When in a situation they couldn't back out of, they fought fiercely.
Shoulder fired man portable anti-aircraft missiles appeared at the end of the Vietnam War, so the aviators did not have to contend with them for long. What they learned about these new, small heat seeking missiles was critical to our tactics today. The greatest threat to our aircraft in Iraq is encountering new versions of this man portable anti-aircraft missile.
Due to the enemy threat and dense airspace usage here in Iraq detailed and time consuming mission planning is a way of life. Fortunately we have the computers, software and internet transmitted airspace coordination means to create computer generated maps and mission data for each flight. We also have GPS navigation systems, long range radios and complete flight instruments. For protection we only fly in pairs here, while in Vietnam they many times flew single ship with minimal pre-planning time using only a map and compass.
Today in Iraq, safety is paramount to everything we do. We even say our biggest enemy is ourselves in the form of an accident. We are required to conduct thorough risk analysis and track our duty time to prevent fatigue. In contrast, Vietnam Vets developed safety procedures only after frequent accidents or shoot-downs. In Iraq we also enjoy the tactical advantage of flying "blacked out" at night with Night Vision Goggles that were not invented back then.
But, perhaps the greatest difference between Iraq and Vietnam is the support at home. Today we enjoy widespread support on the home front. Even those who can't see why we are fighting rarely slander soldiers when they protest the war. This may be in part due to 9/11, but it is also because our nation remembers the nature of 1960s war protesters, and their actions toward returning Vietnam Vets. Such conduct is no longer acceptable in mainstream American society. This quote by Vietnam Veteran CW4 XXXXXX XXXXX makes it clear:
"When comparing Vietnam to Iraq, there were a few things that were painful. First, we went as individuals, not as units. We came and went at different times. We often left in the middle of the night, coming home to a town that may or may not have known you even left. We were cursed, called baby killers, and completely disrespected for many years. You, however, are seen as heroes and should receive the accolades you deserve."
We in Task Force 185th have a lot to thank the Aviators and men of the helicopter units of Vietnam for, from their pioneering tactics in Air Mobile Warfare; to the way they proved what was needed in the way of future aircraft. The burdens they bore both at war and at home have made our success in Iraq possible. We could write a book about this issue, but not at this time. We ask that you forward this email to a Vietnam aviator, crewmember or mechanic and thank them.
On this Veterans Day we also want to give a special thanks to our family members for their sacrifices this year while we serve in Iraq. Your thoughts, support and prayers are literally a God send. Our families are now veterans too and they are our heroes!!!
Catfish 6
TF 185th Aviation
"In the Sunni Triangle"
Commanding |
The LIES of the LEFT, attempting to sanctify their "Anti-War" efforts....God FORBID that John Kerry had been elected..... 
| Quote: | When Vietnam vets came home (Soldiers being spit on is just an urban myth)
News and Observer ^ | Nov 10, 2004 | JOHN LLEWELLYN
Posted on 11/10/2004 3:35:05 PM PST by mykdsmom
WINSTON-SALEM -- Last week voters went to the polls to select a vision for the future. Now Americans must find a way forward together. This week, as we honor service and sacrifice on Veterans Day, an image from this political season must be put to rest.
The presidential campaign featured the resurgence of a myth from the early 1990s. That myth is that soldiers returning from Vietnam were spit upon by citizens or war protesters. That claim has been used to turn honest differences of opinion about the war into toxic indictments.
As a scholar of urban legends I am usually involved with accounts of vanishing hitchhikers and involuntary kidney donors. These stories are folklore that harmlessly reveals the public imagination. However, accounts of citizens spitting on returning soldiers -- any nation's soldiers -- are not harmless stories. These tales evoke an emotional firestorm.
I have studied urban legends for nearly 20 years and have been certified as an expert on the subject in the federal courts. Nonetheless, it dawned on me only recently that the spitting story was a rumor that has grown into an urban legend. I never wanted to believe the story but I was afraid to investigate it for fear that it could be true.
Why could I not identify this fiction sooner? The power of the story and the passion of its advocates offer a powerful alchemy of guilt and fear -- emotions not associated with clearheadedness.
Labeling the spitting story an urban legend does not mean that something of this sort did not happen to someone somewhere. You cannot prove the negative -- that something never happened. However, most accounts of spitting emerged in the mid-1980s only after a newspaper columnist asked his readers who were Vietnam vets if they had been spit upon after the war (an odd and leading question to ask a decade after the war's end). The framing of the question seemed to beg for an affirmative answer.
• • •
In 1998 sociologist and Vietnam veteran Jerry Lembcke published "The Spitting Image: Myth, Media and the Legacy of Viet Nam." He recounts a study of 495 news stories on returning veterans published from 1965 to 1971. That study shows only a handful (32) of instances were presented as in any way antagonistic to the soldiers. There were no instances of spitting on soldiers; what spitting was reported was done by citizens expressing displeasure with protesters.
Opinion polls of the time show no animosity between soldiers and opponents of the war. Only 3 percent of returning soldiers recounted any unfriendly experiences upon their return.
So records from that era offer no support for the spitting stories. Lembcke's research does show that similar spitting rumors arose in Germany after World War I and in France after its Indochina war. One of the persistent markers of urban legends is the re-emergence of certain themes across time and space.
There is also a common-sense method for debunking this urban legend. One frequent test is the story's plausibility: how likely is it that the incident could have happened as described? Do we really believe that a "dirty hippie" would spit upon a fit and trained soldier? If such a confrontation had occurred, would that combat-hardened soldier have just ignored the insult? Would there not be pictures, arrest reports, a trial record or a coroner's report after such an event? Years of research have produced no such records.
Lembcke underscores the enduring significance of the spitting story for this Veterans Day. He observes that as a society we are what we remember. The meaning of Vietnam and any other war is not static but is created through the stories we tell one another. To reinforce the principle that policy disagreements are not personal vendettas we must put this story to rest.
Our first step forward is to recognize that we are not a society that disrespects the sacrifices of our servicemembers. We should ignore anyone who tries to tell us otherwise. Whatever our aspirations for America, those hopes must begin with a clear awareness of who we are not.
(John Llewellyn is an associate professor of communication at Wake Forest University.)
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Some responses from another board:
I just knew y'all would appreciate the opportunity to educate the 'so-called' educator.
Dr. John Llewellyn
(336) 759-7229
llewelly@wfu.edu
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The profanities that I am ready to expel are enormous.
Just who did this person speak to??
I was spit upon, I had people throw beer bottles at me from their cars, and I heard Baby Killer many times, and I graduated Parris Island in 1977...5 years after combat ended in Vietnam!
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yeah right, not only was my brother in law spat upon on his return from Nam, when he finally got home "the Baby Killer", had to pay 3 xs what was on the cab meter before the sob would drive A Bronze Star winner home!
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He can kiss my Veteran ASS!
I spent the night in a California jail for beating the crap out of a "love child" that spit on me while I was waiting for my duffle bag at the airport luggage carosel.
I ignored the chants, but the spit earned him some extensive dental work and my right boot rearranged his rib cage. I still have the scars on my knuckles from his dislodged teeth..
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Years of research COVERUP have produced no such records.
I graduated PI July 73, I wore my UOD on boot leave and learned my lesson. The author of this article needs a good swift kick in the face.
[PI=Paris Island, Marine Boot Camp]
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Who is this guy kidding??? I distinctly remember marching in a 4th of July parade when I was in the Boy Scouts in 19-73 or 1974 and we were the color guard for the local VFW. The Vets marched according to their service with the Viet Nam vets in the rear and they were jeered and booed and had things thrown at them. Most of the time whoever threw something was confronted by someone else in the crowd and the parade was only a couple of blocks long but it DID happen. I remember at first I was bewildered and then extremely angry. My dad was marching with the Korean Vets and he got a good dose of the hate too and he was fuming.
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My brother committed suicide after his return from Nam. Our family believes one reason was the "welcome" he received when he got home. And I saw people flip him off, turn their backs on him, etc. He told me about spitting and I saw the evidence of bar fights resulting from the name calling.
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jun 70 lax airport ..... all the wonderful california liberals.... vvaw.. spat, through eggs, urine in a bag, fecies, called us everything they could think of.... I wore my uniform home through Atlanta, to Fayetteville, NC. I had it cleaned and it hangs in my closet to this say to remind me of them... and Kerry ..... and Fonda....
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This guy illustrates all that is wrong with advanced reasoning as it is represented in academia today. It is changing history to fit his view. And is intellectually dishonest in defining what he would see as contrary proof. And above all else, he is flat a** wrong!!! I personally witnessed three multiple acts of spitting(two were aimed at me)separated by 12 months and 16 months. Gotta go.
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In 1968 there was a Marine standing in his dress greens at the corner of Katella and St. College in Anaheim, CA. Anyone who has ever been to Disneyland knows the corner.
That evening this Marine was on a weekend liberty on his way to Viet Nam. As he was standing at the corner waiting with others for the traffic signal to change so he could cross the street to go to Disneyland there was an automobile with several people inside. As the car was making a right turn in front of the Marine and other pedestrians, a person in the back seat of the car leaned out and spat at the Marine but because of the Marine's excellent reflexes, he missed the spittle.
I know this story is accurate because I was that Marine.
Happy Birthday to all my fellow Marines alive and passed.
Semper Fi,
Kelly
~~~~~~~~
Yeah this guy is full of it...
Sept 1969 San Francisco Int'l Airport
The rioters through crap at us and spit at us...while sitting in the airport waiting for a military standby to Chicago to open up...a pretty hippy chick came up to me and a Marine I was traveling with..stood in front of us and asked us if we had fought in Vietnam..when we both said yes she started calling us 'baby killers' spit at both of us .from about a foot away...missed me and hit him in the face...he hauled back to belt her one..I was able to keep him from killing her..even though I wanted to kill her myself..then she began screaming obscenities at us which got plenty of attention...
The cops weren't far away and it didn't take long for a bunch of them to head over in our direction and I did not want to go to jail...I just wanted to get home to my small town away from all these a holes...
The cops were very good to us...we told them what happened and just hauled her sorry butt off...she was kicking and screaming obscenities at all of us by that time..
A little while longer and we both able to catch a military standby on the same flight..
It was pretty neat because the airlines threw a couple of college hippies off the flight and gave us their seats....in first class
The hippies were pretty upset and starting b****ing about us but the passengers in first class
(business class) booed them and applauded us...it was pretty neat...quite a few of them offered to buy us drinks..which we took them up on I am pretty sure...
True story...I don't care what this a hole says about it being an 'urban myth' the only urban myth here is the one he just created.. about these events...he is just another propagandizing left wing apologist liar
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Oh really? In 1968 in Chicago, I watched a Marine Corp unit parading downtown. Hundreds of people lines the streets and actually booed them. I was the only one applauding and I got lots of dirty looks from other people around me.
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Forgot to mention that after getting into Oakland we were advised to change into civvies if we had any...that the Army was ok with us traveling in civvies...this was because veterans had been attacked we were told by anti war protesters...
This is no urban legend this is a fact...even the Army had a policy allowing returning vets to travel legally on orders in civvies..
I would say that if the DOD considered it dangerous for returning Vietnam Vets it was because there were documented cases of such attacks
Bet this commie prof never bothered to check on this policy...
As he is still attacking Vietnam veterans with his lies....
You would think that after 35 yrs these a holes would give it a rest
~~~~~~~~~
You are correct with the implications of responding to that sort of provocation. I returned from my first tour in Jan '69. Things hadn't totally gone crazy yet with Kerry's protesters. During that period, to travel on a SPACE-A basis on commercial aircraft (50% reduction) the military member MUST be in uniform. Well, I must tell you that after several encounters with my fellow Americans, which two of the incidents were referred to my 1st shirt, I travelled in disguise (civvies). Although at that time, the haircut was a dead giveaway.
Congrats - USMC gets one year older
~~~~~~~~
Here is the email I sent to the good Dr.
Dear Dr. Llewellyn:
Not to put a pin in your balloon sir, but either I was high on drugs I never used or insane at the time, but I for one was spit on when returning from Viet Nam. The incident happened at the San Francisco International Air Port.
I, a returning First Lieutenant in the U.S. Army, was with an Air Force Major. We were confronted by two young men and one young lady, who were blocking out path, asking us questions such as how many babies had we killed and how many women we had raped, when the young lady stepped close to me and spit in my face.
I was, initially stunned and taken aback. I had no idea how to respond. I guess my anger was welling up within me as the young folks took off as the Air Force Major grabbed me and said something to the affect "that it wasn't worth it".
It certainly is a shame that you have taken the position as an authority on the subject and written that such activities didn't happen and are nothing more than Urban Legend.. They did and to more than just a few individuals.
This was in the spring of 1972 and to this day I feel the anti-war groups such that Lt. JG John Kerry formed were the instigators of those actions.In the early to mid 70's we really did live in a country that either sat silently back and said nothing or laid the blame for our misled adventure in Viet Nam at the feet of those who served.
John Kerry accused us of War Crimes and in his statements claimed many if not most of us developed drug habits while serving an ungrateful nation.
You can opine as much as you like, but I suggest you either have a political ax to grind or don't know what you are talking about. I suggest both.
Sincerely,
Greg Adams
Pierre, South Dakota
~~~~~~~~~
We (USMC) didn't have too much trouble in the comunities just outside of base but the larger cities were a different story. There was a time that we were advised NOT to wear our uniforms when going on liberty. That was about impossible because as E-1's and E-2's ALL you had were your uniforms.
When you returned from being in-country, there were groups that met you at the airport. Many were kids but there were plenty of adults taking part. I had trouble both at San Francisco and LA. They certainly DID spit on you, throw fake blood and Ketchup on you, get in your face, scream insults and call you all sorts of names.
I personally did not get the feces or urine treatment, but I knew many who did. I had a few take a poke at me, but that was a huge mistake.
We tired of this crap and on many occasions we took to knocking the crap out of them. If you were caught, you stood a mast and might have pulled some extra duty or a work detail as punishment.
I served 1965- 1969.
~~~~~~~~
10/22/2004
The Right to Free Spit?
Anti-war Protester Spits on Marine Congressional Candidate
On Thursday night, an antiwar protestor in Milwaukee spit on a returned Iraqi war veteran, Marine Major Jerry Boyle. Boyle is a Republican candidate for Congress in Milwaukee. Boyle served in Operation Iraqi freedom and was posted to Baghdad shortly after the invasion. Although he is an underdog in the race, he has shown up for every campaign forum, where he’s won high marks for his civility and willing to face hostile audiences…
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I separated at Treasure Island Naval Station 1971. We were warned about the hostility of civilians & told not to go on liberty alone or in uniform. Yes the abuse occurred how do I know I was there it happened on a daily basis with full knowledge of the MSM who mostly spiked the story.
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It is no urban legend, it happened to me.
In May, 1973 following discharge from Letterman Army Medical Center, Presidio of San Francisco, California I transited to Ft, Monmouth, NJ for training in a new MOS. Still in some pain and uncomfortable from the cross country flight I was waiting near the Port Authority in NY to see if I could hook up with a couple of GIs to try to split the cab fare to Ft, Monmouth. In uniform, with only my duffel bag, I was passed by a group of about 5 or 6 Kerry types. When they passed behind me, I heard the typical insults about, heard one of them spit and felt it hit my back. I didn't see which one did it, but they were all laughing loudly and "slapping each other some skin" as the disappeared around the corner.
~~~~~~~~~
My Brother and his buddies were spit at and cursed by a pack of dirty hippies/war protesters as They came out the main gate at Travis AFB in 1974.
He spent two weeks drunk, And another two years wandering
around North America. He's doing OK . Wife,Kids,Mortgage,
Etc.. I can get him to talk a little about Nam when we're
by ourselves, But he never talks about coming back to the states.
The pencil neck mythbuster who put out this "Study" can go straight to Hell.
~~~~~~~~~
There is no justice for the 58,000 + Names on the Viet Nam Wall
There is no justice for the Brothers and Sisters
who's lives were ruined when they did come home.
My days in downtown Chicago in Sept 69, after I came home,
are as vivid now, as then.
I worked across the street from the Chicago 7 trial (Oct 69)
I witnessed the 1st major Viet Nam War protest (Oct 69)
I saw the daily anti war protests at Dailey Plaza
I was refused admission to Northwestern University (Oct 69)
because I was a Viet Nam Vet
(I would "upset" the other students)
I can't wait for the Hanoi Kerry and Democrats Nov 11th
suprise for Viet Nam Vets
~~~~~~~~~
My power supply went south before I could post my reply. I'm glad it did because I didn't use nice language at all. To put it nicely, urban myth, my ass. I was there and know first hand that the spitting, dodging feces, etc was the norm in san francisco, not the exception. Coming off the plane,
GIs ran a guantlet of unwashed hippie types shouting, spitting, throwing bags of something (purported to be feces) with the local police watching and doing nothing (they did warn the servicemen that they could be arrested for retaliating). I heard this story many times from men I served with and can say from personal experience that the spitting occurred most of the time when you went into sf in uniform. Again, I'm glad the original post didn't make it out of here. Admin mods wouldn't have been too happy.
~~~~~~~~
My friend a Navy Master Chief said the protesters threw dog food on him. The police just stood there and watched. When he scrapped it off and was going to throw it back at them, the police officer said they'd arrest him if he did.
Another friend Ret. COL USAF said they spit on him..he was enroute to his mom's funeral having come all the way from Vietnam for it.
~~~~~~~~~
This is a very disturbing story. The " academic " dismisses the reality of returning Vietnam Vets as an "urban legend" and says "we should ignore anyone who tries to tell us otherwise". He is right that the "meaning of Vietnam is created through the stories we tell each other."
An entire generation accepted the "stories" John Kerry and his ilk told this country about our soldiers activities and who these men were. The entire country believed the lies..the "stories". There wasn't the chance to tell the "true stories" ..and there were no "embedded reporters". And John Kerry was never made to apologize, say that he had lied, so the "stories" were kept alive as true until the Swiftees broke through decades of the Big Lie.
This is the first time in our country's history since Vietnam War that the Truth, the stories of Truth have come out!
I would like this "so called communications academic" to get out of his cushy, ivory tower job to really get into "communications". I am not a Vietnam Vet. However I have been a psychotherapist for over 20 years and I have "communicated" with Vietnam Vets. Their reality is true. This academic has probably never heard of Post Traumatic Stress disorder. He has probably never heard the vet "stories" about how their return after the war really was. There was no validation about what they had been through and no recognition, and in addition they had to face Kerry's lies. Kerry's traitorous behavior was not just limited to the effects on soldiers and POW's in Vietnam, but also for those that never had any treatment for the reality of the war when they came home. And worse than that they had to "hide" who they were because they were not validated when they came home.
Today, when soldiers come home, we recognize the trauma they have been through and validate their honor and their pain and offer help and support. We help them see the true meaning of their valiant effort, hoping they can heal, not only physically but also psychologically and spiritually.
This academic, like John Kerry, continues the lies and dishonours brave soldiers. to do that is not just political drival....To do that is a crime against the soul.
Call me, Dr. LLewellyn. I'd be glad to "communicate" with you.
~~~~~~~~
It is very likely that those born after 1962 or so have no idea how vile, arrogant,righteous, bullying, filthy, drug abusing and left-wing the anti-war "hippie" crowd of the 1960's was. These are types who screamed "my civil rights are being violated" at every opportunity, but make no mistake that if they had been in charge, everybody who disagreed with them would have ended up with a bullet in the head. Oh yes, I forgot the adjective "lawyerlike". Anything they did could be justified. There were millions of them. Where did they all go? Ever ask yourself that? They are mostly in their 50's now. You see them every day but probably don't realize it. My experience is that they make good money, dress well, live well in the 'burbs, and send their kids to good schools. Many became teachers or professors, both to escape military service and to infect the young with their natural born "wisdom", thus ensuring someone would always be around to legitimatize their actions. The farthest they will go in mentioning their past, in public, is saying, "I was against the war". You don't hear much about any organizations for them, or reunions, but every four years they tend to do one thing in common that allows them to consciously or subconsciously justify and legitimatize their past - they vote for the Democratic presidential nominee.
~~~~~~~~
That myth is that soldiers returning from Vietnam were spit upon by citizens or war protesters. That claim has been used to turn honest differences of opinion about the war into toxic indictments.
Proven by a push-poll?
I don't know about the returning Vietnam Vets in the 70's, but I was an Officer Candidate on leave in 1980 in Rhode Island, and while I wasn't literally spit upon, I was the object of some pretty unfriendly stairs, whispering, laughter, derision, and in at least a couple of cases, outright nasty (i.e. "hey ya.. Baby killer..") comments. We were (apparently) the first class since the early 1970's ordered to wear our dress uniform on liberty.
The same thing happened a year later to my shipboard sailors. They were welcome every place in the world, except home in the U.S.A.. After four years of Reagan, by 1995 when I left active duty, you couldn't take a walk out in town without someone thanking you for your service, or attempting to buy you a beer (or perhaps, invite you to church or home to meet the daughter). Four years of "morning in America", plus a strong President, turned night-time into day for the military guys.
So, I don't know what this revisionist historian is talking about, because if I lived it in 1980-81, I'm sure it was a lot worse in the 1970's.
~~~~~~~~
I CAN PERSONALLY TESTIFY THAT:
When I first got out of Boot Camp in San Diego and then was transferred to Electronics School at Treasure Island, San Francisco....we used to hitch hike back and forth to see our girl friends and jump commuter flights at half price.....that was 1967....and you RARELY stood by the side of the road for more than 20 minutes.
Then, when I was on the USS Granville S. Hall, YAG-40, and we moved the ship from Pearl Harbor to San Francisco....in 1969.....things had changed DRAMATICALLY....
We were warned not to wear our uniforms 'in town'....and the Anti-War rhetoric was growing NASTY.....
By the time I had been transferred to Nuke School at Mare Island, Vallejo, CA.....things were DRAMATICALLY different.
We stayed on base unless we went out in groups....or just spent time off base with our wives if we were married.
When I returned to Denver in late 1970.....I didn't recognize the place...and didn't even MENTION being a Veteran unless I was at the VA Hospital or some such surroundings.
I spent 8 1/2 months in the VA Hospital in 1972-73.
It wasn't until I was walking through a large "box store" in Kalispell, MT about 7 years ago that I started to recognize what being a Veteran of that period meant to others....
A lady handing out pizza samples saw my "Vietnam Veteran" hat that I had purchased the week before.....I was working at the Whitefish Army-Navy Store and got a discount....they didn't have a "correct" hat and logo for my time in the service, but it was about as close as I could come.
She asked me, "Are you a REAL Vietnam Veteran...???"
I hesitantly said, "Yes, but I wasn't IN Vietnam, I was in the Navy many miles away at the time...."
She stuck out her hand, gave me a firm handshake, and said, "Thank You for your service and Welcom Home....!!!"
I just stood there awe-struck.
That lady changed my life for the better.
I had NEVER heard anyone say ANYTHING positive about my Navy days....and this was 25 years since I had even mentioned being a Veteran, not wanting to go over the old stories and memories.
Now, ever since THAT encounter....whenever I see ANY Veteran or Active Duty Servicemen or Women....I give them the same handshake and greeting.
It ALWAYS gets a smile....
The SAD part is when I run into another Vietnam Era Veteran and THEY tell me that I am the FIRST person who has ever responded to them in that fashion.
I generally DON'T share my reasons for doing so....it doesn't seem necessary.
http://www.freedominion.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=14556&sid=e98ffb1856faadff199ac8e503976098
HAPPY BIRTHDAY, MARINES...!!!
HAPPY VETERANS DAY, ALL....!!!
J.B. STONE
Whitefish, MT
ETN-2, USN, 1967-70
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JB Stone
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:15 am Post subject: |
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_____----********O********----______
THE FOUNDATION
"The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave." --Patrick Henry
_____----********O********----______
PUBLISHER'S NOTE ON VETERANS DAY 2004
Tomorrow is Veterans Day. We encourage our readers to set aside time to reflect on the sacrifice of our Patriot veterans and honor them accordingly.
On November 11th, 1921, an unknown American soldier from World War I was buried in Arlington National Cemetery, in recognition of WWI veterans and in conjunction with the timing of cessation of hostilities at 11 a.m., November 11, 1918 (the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month). President Warren Harding requested that: "All...citizens...indulge in a period of silent thanks to God for these... valorous lives and of supplication for His Divine mercy...on our beloved country." Inscribed on the Tomb are the words: "Here lies in honored glory an American soldier know but to God." The day became known as "Armistice Day." In 1954, Congress, wanting to recognize the sacrifice of veterans since WWI, proposed to change Armistice Day to Veterans Day in their honor. President Dwight D. Eisenhower, former Supreme Commander in WWII, signed the legislation.
To honor those veterans who sacrificed all, an Army honor guard from the 3d U.S. Infantry (The Old Guard) keeps day and night vigil at Arlington. At 11 a.m. tomorrow, a combined color guard representing all military service branches executes "Present Arms" at the tomb for the laying of a wreath by the president. This is followed by "Taps."
The Defense Department has totaled one measure of the price of liberty -- almost 1.2 million members of our fighting forces have died while in service to our country since the American Revolution; 1.4 million have been wounded. The numbers, of course, offer no reckoning of the inestimable value of these individual citizens' lives, and the sacrifices borne by their families. But we do know their sacrifices defended a precious gift handed down to us -- the liberties we cherish. Every day -- but today especially -- let us always hold our veterans and their families in our hearts.
On this commemoration of Veterans Day, we encourage parents and teachers to visit the official Veterans Affairs website for instruction and learning aids on the history and significance of Veterans Day. Link to -- http://www.appc1.va.gov/vetsday/
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IChThUS IMPRIMIS
"There is a time for all things, a time to preach and a time to pray, but those times have passed away. There is a time to fight, and that time has now come." --Peter Muhlenberg
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SIGN AN OPEN LETTER TO AMERICA'S ARMED FORCES
The proud and the free because the American Soldier, Sailor, Airman, Marine, and Coast Guardsman are standing in harm's way. For this, we, the American People, offer our heartfelt thanks. Link to -- http://PatriotPetitions.US/USMIL
(If you don't have Web access, please send a blank e-mail to: Each e-mail sent to this address will be counted as one signature for the petition.)
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2004 MESSAGE FROM THE PRESIDENT
"Americans live in freedom because of our veterans' courage, dedication to duty, and love of country. On Veterans Day, we honor these brave men and women who have served in our Armed Forces and defended our Nation. Across America, there are more than 25 million veterans. Their ranks include generations of citizens who have risked their lives while serving in military conflicts, including World War II, Korea, Vietnam, the Persian Gulf, and the war on terror. They have fought for the security of our country and the peace of the world. They have defended our founding ideals, protected the innocent, and liberated the oppressed from tyranny and terror. They have known the hardships and the fears and the tragic losses of war. Our veterans know that in the harshest hours of conflict they serve just and honorable purposes. Through the years, our veterans have returned home from their duties to become active and responsible citizens in their communities, further contributing to the growth and development of our Nation. Their commitment to service inspires all Americans. With respect for and in recognition of the contributions our service men and women have made to the cause of peace and freedom around the world, the Congress has provided that November 11 of each year shall be set aside as a legal public holiday to honor veterans. Now, therefore, I, George W. Bush, President of the United States of America, do hereby proclaim November 11, 2004, as Veterans Day and urge all Americans to observe November 7 through November 13, 2004, as National Veterans Awareness Week. I urge all Americans to recognize the valor and sacrifice of our veterans through ceremonies and prayers. I call upon Federal, State, and local officials to display the flag of the United States and to encourage and participate in patriotic activities in their communities. I invite civic and fraternal organizations, places of worship, schools, businesses, unions, and the media to support this national observance with commemorative expressions and programs." --George W. Bush
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ON WAR AND PEACE
"It is sweet and honorable to die for your country." --Horace {} "We make war that we may live in peace." --Aristotle {} "To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace." --George Washington {} "If ever there was a holy war, it was that which saved our liberties and gave us independence." --Thomas Jefferson {} "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war, is worse." --John Stuart Mill {} "The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth." --Thomas J. (Stonewall) Jackson {} "A really great people, proud and high-spirited, would face all the disasters of war rather than purchase that base prosperity which is bought at the price of national honor." --Theodore Roosevelt {} "No man can sit down and withhold his hands from the warfare against wrong and get peace from his acquiescence." --Woodrow Wilson {} "No person was ever honored for what he received. Honor has been the reward for what he gave." --Calvin Coolidge {} "Wars may be fought with weapons, but they are won by men. It is the spirit of the men who follow and of the man who leads that gains the victory." --George Patton {} "Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few." --Sir Winston Churchill {} "[L]et us solemnly remember the sacrifices of all those who fought so valiantly, on the seas, in the air, and on foreign shores, to preserve our heritage of freedom, and let us re-consecrate ourselves to the task of promoting an enduring peace so that their efforts shall not have been in vain." --Dwight Eisenhower {} "The soldier, above all other people, prays for peace, for he must suffer and bear the deepest wounds and scars of war." --Douglas MacArthur
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THE GIPPER
"It's been my responsibility, my duty and very much my honor to serve as Commander in Chief of this nation's Armed Forces these past eight years. That is the most sacred, most important ask of the Presidency. Since our nation's founding, the primary obligation of the national government has been the common defense of these United States. But as I have sought to perform this sacred task as best I could, I have done so with the knowledge that my role in this day-to-day-to-day effort, from sunrise to sunrise, every moment of every hour of every day of every year, is a glancing one compared to yours. ... But it's not just your fellow Americans who owe you a debt. No, I believe many more do, for I believe that military service in the Armed Forces of the United States is a profound form of service to all humankind. You stand engaged in an effort to keep America safe at home, to protect our allies and interests abroad, to keep the seas and the skies free of threat. Just as America stands as an example to the world of the inestimable benefits of freedom and democracy, so too an America with the capacity to project her power for the purpose of protecting and expanding freedom and democracy abroad benefits the suffering people of the world." --Ronald Reagan, 1989
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FLAG ETIQUETTE
Here are some tips to make sure your tribute is a respectful one: Display the flag only between sunrise and sunset on buildings and stationary flagstaffs. The flag may be displayed for twenty-four hours if illuminated in darkness. Do not display the flag in inclement weather. Whether displaying the flag vertically or horizontally, make sure the canton of stars is visible on the upper left-hand side. Do not let the flag touch the ground. An unusable flag that is damaged and worn and can no longer be displayed should be destroyed in a dignified way by burning. When not on display, the flag should be respectfully folded into a triangle, symbolizing the tricorn hats worn by colonial soldiers in the Revolutionary War.
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THE LAST WORD
"It is the soldier, not the reporter,
Who has given us freedom of the press.
"It is the soldier, not the poet,
Who has given us freedom of speech.
"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,
Who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.
"It is the soldier, who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
And whose coffin is draped by the flag,
Who allows the protester to burn the flag."
-- Father Dennis Edward O'Brian, USMC
(10 November 1775, a Corps of Marines was created by a resolution of Continental Congress -- Semper Fi!) |
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JB Stone
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JB Stone
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:00 am Post subject: |
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Messer had been in Cambodia doing reconnaissance missions for the Marine Corps when he was captured on Oct. 3, 1968, after being shot four times.
After Scroggs rescued him, it took him more than a year to recover from the physical wounds of his first reconnaissance mission. But Messer later returned to Vietnam to another tour of duty.
After 34 years, POW reunites with rescuer
By JEAN GORDON
The Associated Press
On July 25, 1970, Warren Messer weighed 80 pounds and had turned blue. His knees were crushed and his feet and fingers were broken. He was struggling to hang on to life in a Cambodian prisoner-of-war camp.
Then he saw the eyes of the U.S. Air Force medic who had come to save his life. Through the years, he never forgot those eyes.
They belonged to Ronnie Scroggs, a Rutherford County, N.C., native. With the help of two other POWs he had rescued, Scroggs carried Messer through the jungle for three days, delivering him to a helicopter that flew him away for medical care.
Messer had been so brutalized that he couldn’t even tell Scroggs that the day of his rescue was also his birthday. In fact, Messer was in such bad shape that Scroggs expected him to die. But when Scroggs’ captain suggested a mercy killing, he couldn’t do it.
“He was laying on the ground ... I saw something in his eyes,” a tearful Scroggs said recently.
Over the years, Messer tried unsuccessfully to find the soldier who saved him. He mistakenly thought Scroggs was in the Navy, so he searched in that direction.
Neither was aware they were living 30 miles apart.
But just over a month ago, fate and an alert Veterans Services Office official intervened.
Messer, 57, who lives in Gaffney, often travels to Spindale, N.C., for counseling at the Veterans Service Office. He is a victim of post-traumatic stress disorder.
Scroggs, 56, also visits the Spindale veterans office regularly, to talk about his benefits or the war, or to spend time with friends.
Veterans Services officer Marie Champion listened to both their stories through the years: How Messer had been rescued on his birthday, and how Scroggs, as a medic, had rescued 18 POWs during the 10 months he was in Vietnam. A light bulb went off.
But she wasn’t sure Scroggs was Messer’s rescuer. So she arranged for them to be at the office at the same time to see what would happen.
“I knew it was him when I saw his eyes,” Messer said. “A dying man sees only the eyes of the person helping him.”
“The last time I saw him, he was blue,” Scroggs said.
Messer said he also remembered Scroggs’ smile, and when Scroggs produced that smile again, the two wept.
“The chances of us seeing each other again was astronomical,” Messer said.
“For about 35 years we’ve blocked a lot of this out. We don’t talk about it too much. ... I have been depressed. Now this has really brought us closure.”
Messer had been in Cambodia doing reconnaissance missions for the Marine Corps when he was captured on Oct. 3, 1968, after being shot four times.
After Scroggs rescued him, it took him more than a year to recover from the physical wounds of his first reconnaissance mission. But Messer later returned to Vietnam to another tour of duty.
In fact, Messer is still in the Marine Corps, in the Foothills Detachment of the Marine Corps League in Shelby, N.C. “I’ll stay in the Marine Corps ’til they pull the flag across me,” he said.
Scroggs returned to Rutherford County and built a career with the Rutherford County EMS.
Messer, who received 17 Purple Hearts, is expected to receive a Congressional Medal of Honor by the end of the year. |
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