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FreeFall · LCDR Joined: 13 Aug 2004 Posts: 421

It's the 2nd photo in the photo gallery. I haven't heard this on the news.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/graphics/phantom_fury/flash.htm

GIaunt · Seaman Joined: 08 Oct 2004 Posts: 174

There were reports of sarin gas a few days ago... turned out it was Sarin gas test kits.... So, this could be those....

I believe that WMD is still hidden in Iraq, and that some WMD was moved out of Iraq just before we went in, and that they maintained production capability ....

Actually finding some WMD would be a nice "told you so..." moment...
Smile

FreeFall · LCDR Joined: 13 Aug 2004 Posts: 421

Those don't look like Sarin test kits to me. But who knows at this point.

Navy_Navy_Navy · Admin Joined: 07 May 2004 Posts: 5777

There have been a couple of other threads about this, here - Rurik even translated the Russian labels, the translations of which didn't seem to indicate whether these were actual sarin vials or test vials. NPR did a report (see last link, here) about the test kits they'd found. But, I wonder if this is going to be one of those things we might not know the truth of for quite some time?

http://www2.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17430

http://www2.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17188

http://www2.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17205
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FreeFall · LCDR Joined: 13 Aug 2004 Posts: 421

Thanks Echo Juliet, I missed those posts.

I still wonder why they were stored with morter tubes and morter rockets if they weren't a weapon though.

Others made a good point on those other posts, why would they need test kits for Sarin if there was no Sarin. And why the wording in Russian?

Navy_Navy_Navy · Admin Joined: 07 May 2004 Posts: 5777

Good questions.

Along the lines of, "Why would the Republican Guard be ready for outfitting with MOPP gear - thousands and thousands of NBC suits at the ready?"

Hussein knew damn well that WE wouldn't be shooting off chem/bio/nukes.

And as for the Russian, well, it matches the writing on a lot of the armaments they were selling to Hussein right up to the invasion.

And the maps they used to transport out huge convoys of those arms, too. Thank you, President Putin, hm?
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Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
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Rurik · Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:02 pm Post subject:

I think its pretty safe to say those vials inthe photo were anti-dotes, not the chemical itself. The labels on both packets in the photo read

"Sarin - Soman - V-Gasses". Several different substances - 2 different gasses plus a third family of gasses, all of them related nerve agents.
So it makes sense that these vials would contain generic antidote - probably atropine injectors.

The questions of why would guerrilla warriors, who typically travel light, be carrying them around, and why would the Iraqis have procured them inthe first place, seem to provoke their own answer.

The Russian writing is significant, and indicateds the original source of the kits, though the same information is also included in German, which raises interesting possibilities. It would be interesting to know the production and expiration dates on these puppies. Were these kits provided directly by the Russians? and if so when? Pre 1991? During the 1990s? or More recently? If so why the German? Or were they perhaps East German kits, of original Soviet origin, inherited by Germany after unification, and latr resold. We know the GErmans have resold a lot of inherited East German material to a variety of countries. And we know they have joined the French is selling materials to Iraq?

The Russian situation is most complicated. Remember they no longer have a completely monolithic system as before. The Russian army is clearly resentful and would like to cut us down to size. Putin is more nuanced. He recognizes the need for Russia to turn to the West. But Putin is torn between America and the EU. If we let him get away with it, he'll try to have it both ways. And we can't really blame him for that; if the situation were reversed, we'd try to have it both ways. His job is to look out for the interests of his country. Looking out for our interests is the job of our leaders. EVidence suggests that if we do not let him get away with it, if we force the issue, Putin will choose America over the EU. That is what has happened over the past couple of years, with the recognition that Russia, having chosen America out of pragmatism rather than devotion, Russia will cheat whenever it thinks it can get away with it. That is a job for our president and diplomats. IMHO, Russia is a two-timing semi-friend, France is an enemy. German y seems to be a two-timing "semi-enemy".

Russia has another problem. Since 1991, the Russian President does not have the ironclad authority of the old Gensek. And some of these arms trades may very well have been the work of free lancers operating without central govt. direction. (Though sometimes this may be a plausible excuse for the government) Numerous other instances of this sort of behaviour have gone on in the past ten years, and even during the late Soviet period. I remind you of a dozen T-72 tanks that were intercepted in the south Caucasus being exported God knows where in 1989. Some of this free lancing is done by arms maunfactuers trying to make a ruble, and other are done by rogue army officers privatizing unit equipment and turning them into cash. Again remember the story from the end of the Soviet period about the Czechs who bought a T-72 tank from its Russian crew for a couple of cases of Vodka - Why the Czechs wanted a personal tank instead of the vodka is another riddle.

Bottom line, Russia is not the old Soviet Union, and is not necessarily the dedicated enemy that it once was. But it still bears watching. And it will become a much better friend if we impose a reasonable cost for every episode of backsliding, instead of overlooking and excusing. Of course, that is a problem with the foggy minds at Foggy Bottom. But that's a different rant.
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Somalia Vet · Seaman Recruit Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 5

1991932 · Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:32 pm Post subject: great pun

Bottom line, Russia is not the old Soviet Union, and is not necessarily the dedicated enemy that it once was. But it still bears watching. And it will become a much better friend if we impose a reasonable cost for every episode of backsliding, instead of overlooking and excusing. Of course, that is a problem with the foggy minds at Foggy Bottom. But that's a different rant.

I groaned at that pun, Rurik. "Russia...bears watching." LOL. Twisted Evil

As to Foggy Bottom, our least favorite Metro stop: isn't the the soon-to-be honchette over there a Kremlin expert? We really did elect the smarter man, didn't we? How would The Loser's Secretary of State have handled Putin? Probably like Clinton's handled North Korea.
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rb325th · Admiral Joined: 21 Aug 2004 Posts: 1334

The Vials were a part of a Test Kit, the fact that they were in the Iraqi Military Inventory is not surprising at all. I will preface the following by saying that I firmly believe Iraq had at the very least, the ability to produce WMD in a Post U.N. Sanction Enviroment.
The presence of the Test Kits can not be used alone as definative proof that Iraq had WMD. They were supplied mainly by the Soviets for their Military and used the Soviet Military Model as theirs. The Soviets would have Trained them in all their Tactics which included reaction to and use of Chem/Bio Weapons. The fact is we used similar Test Kits in the Army, and constantly trained to fight in an Enviroment that caontained the presence of WMD. This was back in the Cold War in the 80s). I have Trained on the use of those Kits as well as numerous other Detection and Monitoring Devices for NBC Attacks. It didn't mean we had them or were going to use them, but we felt the Soviets would.
I will add though that the Iraqi's under Saddam would have been within a year of the rescinding of U.N. Actions been extremely dangerous in these regards again. Wether they had WMD and shipped them out or buried them in the desert somewhere, is a possibility. I think the presence of what has been found (Mustard Gas and Sarin in a Artillery Round), is evidence that Saddam did not comply with or destroy everything the U.N. knew about. Glad we took him out!
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Rurik · Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:12 pm Post subject: Re: great pun

Digger · Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2004 5:19 am Post subject:

Ha Ha Ha, Fsio pravda tovarischi. No ya ne nitzschivo nye znaiu, ya toylko rabotayio cdec Laughing

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Jack Hetherton, jr · Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2004 6:42 am Post subject:

Rurik · Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2004 8:14 pm Post subject:

FreeFall · LCDR Joined: 13 Aug 2004 Posts: 421

I did some research and they do appear to be test kits after all. The suspected agent (sarin) is placed in a metal tube then inserted into one of those vials. It will change to a certain color to affirm if it is Sarin or not. Still makes me wonder why they had these tubes though.

More about this is discussed at this other forum.

http://outdoorsbest.zeroforum.com/zerothread?&id=277705&postid=3205648