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FreeFall
LCDR
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 421
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 Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 8:44 am Post subject: Foreign Workers Coming to a Cruise Ship Near You |
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From Newsmax
Foreign Workers Coming to a Cruise Ship Near You
NewsMax.com Wires
Friday, April 29, 2005
"Outsourcing" – which has become synonymous with sending American jobs to India or China – could soon mean foreign workers sleeping in ships just a few miles off America's coasts.
In an outrageous affront to U.S. labor laws, a California company plans to anchor a 600-cabin cruise ship just beyond the three-mile limit off the coast of El Segundo, near Los Angeles, and stock it with foreign software programmers.
The company, SeaCode, will seek to classify the workers as "seamen," avoiding U.S. payroll taxes and the need for immigration visas.
Programmers from places like India and Russia would work 8-hour or 10-hour shifts, either day or night. Take-home pay: About $21,500 a year.
Compare that to the salary of an American programmer – median salary for programmers is around $60,000, and those with extensive experience can make $125,000 or more - and U.S. companies like SeaCode could reap a windfall.
SeaCode says it will charge clients the same rate as firms in developing countries. The company says the significant benefit of having the low-cost programmers near the U.S. is that clients will be spared from long flights to India and other far-off destinations to check on projects.
By using foreigners working on boats, SeaCode also believes projects will get done more quickly as their programmers toil both day and night. "Try to get American software engineers to work at night," SeaCode co-founder David Cook told Forbes magazine, explaining his delight in the outsourcing scheme.
But Jack Martin, special projects director for the Federation for American Immigration Reform, complained: "All it would do is be a further contribution to eroding the job opportunities for skilled American workers."
SeaCode is close to making an offer for the Carousel, a ship now sailing around the Canary Islands. The vessel would dock in Long Beach once a month to take on supplies and dispose of waste – isn't that nice? But legally speaking, the SeaCode scheme could face stormy seas.
"It's not my prerogative to tell them to take a hike," said El Segundo Mayor Kelly McDowell. "I'll leave that to the Coast Guard." |
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baldeagle
PO2
Joined: 27 Oct 2004
Posts: 362
Location: Grand Saline, Texas
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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An Entrepeneur figures out a way to provide a service at a significant savings to the user. The existing companies must now figure out a way to compete. This is the nature of capitolism and free enterprise and is what drives the American economy. If the $125,000 per year programmer desires to maintain his standard of living then he must figure out a way to produce $125,000 worth of service in a competitive market.
Competition is good for all, the economy and the consumer, .........and the highly paid specialist is not guaranteed, nor entitled to, a protected job for life.
My .02 worth
_________________
"In a word, I want an American character, that the powers of Europe may be convinced we act for ourselves and not for others; this, in my judgment, is the only way to be respected abroad and happy at home." --George Washington |
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FreeFall
LCDR
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 421
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The company, SeaCode, will seek to classify the workers as "seamen," avoiding U.S. payroll taxes and the need for immigration visas. |
Baldeagle, this doesn't bother you? This doesn't sound like a fair playing field to me. |
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baldeagle
PO2
Joined: 27 Oct 2004
Posts: 362
Location: Grand Saline, Texas
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 12:44 am Post subject: |
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FreeFall, I'm not the swiftest runner in the race, for sure, and undoubtably there are many facets to this story of which I am unaware, but on the face, I am opposed to protectionist economic policies as the consumer is usually the one that gets screwed.
There are many current jobs being "outsourced" due to cheaper labor cost offshore, and if I were myself a businessman with my life savings invested in my company, I would consider doing the same thing.
The lure of "personal profit" is the engine which has, and will continue to be, the driving force of this American economy, which has made us the greatest nation in the history of the world.
As for "fairness", that is not a word in the lexicon of the business world. GM does not tell Ford what their improvements will be next year so that Ford may compete on a "level" playing field.
Again, there is a lot that I don't know about the situation, but have to call it like I see it.
_________________
"In a word, I want an American character, that the powers of Europe may be convinced we act for ourselves and not for others; this, in my judgment, is the only way to be respected abroad and happy at home." --George Washington |
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DLI78
PO3
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 273
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 5:25 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | "Try to get American software engineers to work at night," SeaCode co-founder David Cook told Forbes magazine, explaining his delight in the outsourcing scheme. |
It is too bad this maroon has never met any actual American software engineers/developers/programmers/whatever-you-want-to-call-us.
A few years ago I was a junior member of a team of 8 software developers who were all on salary (specifically, no overtime pay for extra work). We had to produce a product and had one month from the final approval of the design and function to the time we were going to roll it out. We worked 16-hour or more days. We worked Saturdays and sometimes Sundays (near the end).
We got it done on time, to specifications, and we were all there to tweak anything they decided needed changing after they saw the reality of what they had planned. That general clean up and "oops, we changed our minds" took up another month or so.
I also worked with a senior developer to learn functions outside our job descriptions (building and maintaining web servers), which invariably required coming in at 10 p.m. after a normal day of work, then working till midnight or 1 a.m. to install or maintain something. Again, this was while we were on salary, so there was no overtime.
We did it because it was interesting. We did it because it was a good challenge.
I've been on teams where we've worked many long hours to get a project done just to meet somebody else's deadline. When I work on a Saturday or Sunday, I'm surprised if I'm the only one there working, since there are usually a few other teams doing some extra work.
That "soft, lazy American worker" crap doesn't coincide with my experience as a software developer, and I know dozens of other guys at other places who also spend long hours on their projects.
This sweatshop boat idea sounds to me like a recipe for burnout and lots of buggy code.
Hey, you want to trust your business to code written by the sweat boats crew, go ahead. When they sail away and you need that code fixed, my hourly price goes up. I've got lots of experience unravelling buggy code. 
_________________
DLI 78
Army Linguist
1978-1986 |
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GenrXr
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 1720
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 7:02 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Lotsa_Static"] | Quote: | "This sweatshop boat idea sounds to me like a recipe for burnout and lots of buggy code.
Hey, you want to trust your business to code written by the sweat boats crew, go ahead. When they sail away and you need that code fixed, my hourly price goes up. I've got lots of experience unravelling buggy code. |
Hear Hear,
The whole idea of a group of people working on a boat off shore in order to cut labor costs is fantasy. I think we need to worry more about the Canadian border. I find the thought of Muslins coming over the Mexican border as fantasy also. They will attack us from the Canadian border, yet this is never discussed, because I suppose Canada is our peaceful nice neighbor.
_________________
"An activist is the person who cleans up the water, not the one claiming its dirty."
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to stand by and do nothing." Edmund Burke (1729-1797), Founder of Conservative Philosophy |
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SBD
Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2004
Posts: 1022
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 8:40 am Post subject: |
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This has got to be the dumbest idea I have ever heard. I am also a programmer that can also manage a web server and most importantly, I speak English. I am also constantly upgrading my skills in different areas where I see a need. For example, I am currently building addon solutions for Microsoft Small Business Accounting 2006 scheduled for release at the end of the year. In the meantime, if my clients need some programming, I put the job up for bid at http://scriptlance.com and within hours I have numerous bids to choose from as well as an escrow account to protect my investment so no money gets released until I am satisfied.
Can someone please tell me why I need boat people to do my software programming when sites like http://scriptlance.com have qualified programmers fighting over my projects??
Like I said, this is the dumbest idea I have ever heard and the fact that a news organization even prints the story is ludicrous.
SBD |
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Rdtf
CNO
Joined: 13 May 2004
Posts: 2209
Location: BUSHville
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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Who do they expect to hire them? The US DOD?  |
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Jerald L. Parsoneault
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 144
Location: Sacramento
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 12:20 am Post subject: |
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If the DOD can by refueling aircraft from France I guess they are not above paying "boat people" if they are low bidder.
Nalt |
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Bob51
Seaman
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 156
Location: Belfast
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 2:10 am Post subject: |
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Well, I'm sure EU lawyers will be able to bring clarity to this fundamental issue in globalisation 
Bob51
| Quote: | The leaders of the European Union talk a lot about the free movement of people across a borderless continent. But just how free this movement should be is being tested in a court case in Sweden involving a schoolhouse, a Latvian construction company and angry Swedish labor unions.
The case centers on a basic question being debated in Europe today: Should workers who deliver a specific service like building a schoolhouse be paid according to the wages and conditions of their home countries or the countries where they do the job?
The question received little attention before the European Union expanded eastward a year ago. French, German and British accountants, engineers and consultants gave it little thought when they jetted from one office to another in Europe. But with income levels in East European countries around one-quarter those of Western Europe, addressing the issue has taken on urgency.
"We need this verdict just to be absolutely clear what to expect in the future," said Eduards Stiprais, the Latvian ambassador to the European Union. "Our business people need clear rules of engagement."
Remarkably, there are no cut-and-dried rules on the status of these traveling workers - how long they can stay in another country but be paid according to the standards of their home country.
A 1996 EU directive on the posting of workers is confusing and imprecise, lawyers and diplomats say. A broader directive on services named for its architect, Frits Bolkestein, has bogged down in Brussels amid political disagreements.
On Friday, the schoolhouse case officially took on pan-European importance when a Swedish labor court announced that it was seeking a judgment from the European Court of Justice, which is based in Luxembourg and is the EU's highest court.
The basic facts of the case are straightforward: Last year a Latvian company, Laval un Partneri, won a bid to build the school in Vaxholm, a suburb of Stockholm. The company used Latvian workers, which it is entitled to do because Sweden, along with Britain, Ireland and the Netherlands, has opened its borders to workers from the new East European members of the European Union.
But the Swedish labor union Byggnads objected to the wages of the Latvian workers and blockaded the work site from November until February, when Laval decided to abandon the project.
Although the union had no workers involved in the project, it successfully called for "sympathy actions" by other unions and companies that did business with Laval.
Martin Agell, a lawyer for Laval, said: "All of these things stop the free movement of services. Our position is that Swedish trade unions did this because they wanted to stop foreign workers from coming to Sweden."
Laval has sued the Swedish trade union and may seek damages from the Swedish government, Agell said.
The Swedish labor union says it was acting in the interest of the Latvian workers, who they said should be paid the same wages as their Swedish counterparts. According to Agell, the Latvian workers were paid a monthly salary of 13,600 kronor, or about €1,480, half the level that the union said was appropriate.
But in a country that has no minimum wage - pay levels are decided by collective agreements in Sweden - determining a fair wage and "normal" working conditions is a tricky matter for a foreign company. The collective agreement for the construction sector, which sets out specific working conditions, is 170 pages long and is published only in Swedish.
"Movement across borders is something that everyone wants," said John Pettersson, an official at the Swedish Ministry of Industry, Employment and Communications.
"The main issue is how far countries are willing to go to take steps to stop social dumping or wage dumping," he added, referring to the idea that countries with low wages and fewer social benefits could bring down the European average.
All parties involved in the case say more legal clarity is needed if companies want to increase their cross-border business.
Some Latvian construction companies specialize in installing communications towers in Africa or Southeast Asia. It would be a sad irony for Europe if they found it easier to operate there than across the Baltic Sea in Sweden. |
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