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Schadow
Vice Admiral
Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 936
Location: Huntsville, Alabama
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 Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:57 pm Post subject: "This is stolen land!" |
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So proclaimed many banners reading, "ˇÉsta es tierra robada!" at the big Mexican rallies in Los Angeles and other cities. Well, this calls for a little review of history.
| Quote: | | In November 1835, the northern part of the Mexican state of Coahuila-Tejas declared itself in revolt against Mexico's new centralist government headed by President Antonio López de Santa Anna. By February 1836, Texans declared their territory to be independent and that its border extended to the Rio Grande rather than the Rio Nueces that Mexicans recognized as the dividing line. Although the Texans proclaimed themselves citizens of the Independent Republic of Texas on April 21, 1836 following their victory over the Mexicans at the Battle of San Jacinto, Mexicans continued to consider Tejas a rebellious province that they would reconquer someday. |
The US Congress voted to annex the Rebublic of Texas in December, 1845. Troops under Zachary Taylor were sent to secure and protect the Rio Grande border line. Mexican and American forces clashed to the point that the US declared war on Mexico on 13 May 1846. Taylor drove the Mexican army clear to Mexico City and the Mexicans gave up.
The Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo was signed by both parties on 2 Feb 1848. In the treaty, Mexico ceded 55% of its land to the US. Included were territories which now include Arizona, New Mexico, California and parts of what is now Colorado, Utah and Nevada. In exchange, the US paid Mexico $15 million for damages to certain Mexican property. In addition:
| Quote: | | Other provisions stipulated the Texas border at the Rio Grande (Article V), protection for the property and civil rights of Mexican nationals living within the new border (Articles VIII and IX), U.S. promise to police its side of the border (Article XI), and compulsory arbitration of future disputes between the two countries (Article XXI). When the U.S. Senate ratified the treaty in March, it deleted Article X guaranteeing the protection of Mexican land grants. Following the Senate's ratification of the treaty, U.S. troops left Mexico City. |
(A piece of southern Arizona and New Mexico Territories was left out of the treaty and later was obtained from Mexico via the Gadsden Purchase for $10 million in 1852)
So. Stolen land? It may seem so given the eventual value of the land in question, but a deal's a deal. I'm sure it's the wet dream of many Mexicans to abrogate Guadalupe-Hidalgo and plant the snake flag and conceivably that could happen if we fail to maintain a responsible government not composed of the loony left.
More on the Mexican War and the treaty Here
Schadow
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Capt, 8th U.S. Army, Korea '53 - '54 |
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I B Squidly
Vice Admiral
Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 879
Location: Cactus Patch
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:32 am Post subject: |
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note to Schadow: Taylor went to the White House by way of Monterrey. It was Winfield Scott from an landing at Vera Cruz (just like Cortez) that took Mexico City. The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo was concluded when the Americans added $20 million to the pot. Gotta love it. Conquer a country and pay them. Any other country would simply have siezed the land as part of indemnities.
The real comedy of this stolen land scenario is who stole what from whom. All these lands were legacies of the Spanish Conquesta, various entradas and were essentially vain glorious claims on the land and people. They exercised little authority and after Mexico's independence that authority diminished even farther. California was autonimous and unreachable by land from Mexico City because of interdictions of the Yavapai. Arizona, much of New Mexico and great swathes of Sonora and Chihuahua were dominated by Apaches who regularly ravaged or held for ransom Mexican towns. Santa Fe was generally incommunicado from Mexico City. Mesqualeros, Jicarillas and Commanches seperated New Mexico from Texas. In Texas the absence of any effective governance from the south an Independent Republic of the Rio Grande existed at Laredo before the Texas`Revolt and several years after. Nevada, Utah and Colorado included in the treaty had little or no Spanish/Mexican settlement. The point is Mexico was ineffective at governing, developing and populating these lands or they wouldn't have invited Americans to settle in the first place.
The notion of Aztlan is a fabulous nostalgia of a never was.
Every time I see these demonstrations I wonder if the Soylent company is incorporated yet....they had those neat trucks and dog food's getting expensive.
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"KILL ALL THE LAWYERS!"
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wwIIvetsdaughter
Captain
Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 513
Location: McAllen, Texas
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| And who was here before in the Americas before the Spanish conquistadores? Native American tribes. Could it not be argued that Mexico stole the land from them? Hmmm? Did those Native American peoples not cross the Bering land bridge tens of thousands of years ago? Where they not Asian? My point is simply those dunderheads are yapping propoganda an impotent, corrupt Mexican goverment has been feeding its miserable masses for years; stoking envy and rage at the United States so as to deflect from their own misearable record of building their nation. Remember, Mexico is as blessed and in some ways surpasses the USA with natural resources, oil, gas, agriculture, ports, minerals etc., but its legacy of corruption, mordidas (bribes) and lack of freedom (US style) has relegated it to a pathetic example of what could of been. PS I am a hispanic American proud to pledge my loyalty to the USA. |
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Schadow
Vice Admiral
Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 936
Location: Huntsville, Alabama
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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| wwIIvetsdaughter wrote: | | And who was here before in the Americas before the Spanish conquistadores? Native American tribes. Could it not be argued that Mexico stole the land from them? Hmmm? Did those Native American peoples not cross the Bering land bridge tens of thousands of years ago? Where they not Asian? My point is simply those dunderheads are yapping propoganda an impotent, corrupt Mexican goverment has been feeding its miserable masses for years; stoking envy and rage at the United States so as to deflect from their own misearable record of building their nation. Remember, Mexico is as blessed and in some ways surpasses the USA with natural resources, oil, gas, agriculture, ports, minerals etc., but its legacy of corruption, mordidas (bribes) and lack of freedom (US style) has relegated it to a pathetic example of what could of been. PS I am a hispanic American proud to pledge my loyalty to the USA. |
Well stated, 'daughter.
Schadow
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Capt, 8th U.S. Army, Korea '53 - '54 |
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gmez2001
PO3
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 274
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:15 am Post subject: |
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| wwIIvetsdaughter wrote: | | And who was here before in the Americas before the Spanish conquistadores? Native American tribes. Could it not be argued that Mexico stole the land from them? Hmmm? Did those Native American peoples not cross the Bering land bridge tens of thousands of years ago? Where they not Asian? My point is simply those dunderheads are yapping propoganda an impotent, corrupt Mexican goverment has been feeding its miserable masses for years; stoking envy and rage at the United States so as to deflect from their own misearable record of building their nation. Remember, Mexico is as blessed and in some ways surpasses the USA with natural resources, oil, gas, agriculture, ports, minerals etc., but its legacy of corruption, mordidas (bribes) and lack of freedom (US style) has relegated it to a pathetic example of what could of been. PS I am a hispanic American proud to pledge my loyalty to the USA. |
These very same people telling us about the land bridge postulate that early tribes were plundering eachother for their resources ten thousand years ago. I'm sick of it,these people out of academia USA have been proponents of guilt and bash america for decades.
I'll have to agree with my mexican inlaws(3rd generation) in Los Angeles, "I wish the US had made Mexico part of the country long ago it would be better off now".
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Anker-Klanker
Admiral
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 1033
Location: Richardson, TX
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:46 am Post subject: |
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Maybe I'm just dense, but I have apparently burned a logic circuit in all this. For the sake of argument, let's say the southwest was "stolen" from Mexico. If I give them that, then the logical conclusion to their argument - it seems - is that it should be given back (isn't that the final solution according to the proponents of "it was stolen" argument?).
OK, now just why are those millions and millions of Mexicans fleeing FROM Mexico TO the US? Is it because of better jobs, a better economy, more freedom, a better living, etc., etc.? In the USA? Does any Mexican immigrant (distinction: an immigrant - legal or not - is not the same as a temporary worker) now or ever in the past really want Mexico's corruption and economy transported here?
What is it about this I don't get? |
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baldeagle
PO2
Joined: 27 Oct 2004
Posts: 362
Location: Grand Saline, Texas
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:56 am Post subject: |
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| Anker-Klanker wrote: | Maybe I'm just dense, but I have apparently burned a logic circuit in all this. For the sake of argument, let's say the southwest was "stolen" from Mexico. If I give them that, then the logical conclusion to their argument - it seems - is that it should be given back (isn't that the final solution according to the proponents of "it was stolen" argument?).
OK, now just why are those millions and millions of Mexicans fleeing FROM Mexico TO the US? Is it because of better jobs, a better economy, more freedom, a better living, etc., etc.? In the USA? Does any Mexican immigrant (distinction: an immigrant - legal or not - is not the same as a temporary worker) now or ever in the past really want Mexico's corruption and economy transported here?
What is it about this I don't get? |
Just as the African/Americans who lay claim to reparations, shipmate, they don't pause to think the whole situation through, I don't think they (the African/Americans) would advocate such if it also entailed a return to original status, ie, expatriatation back to the land of their ancestry.
There is a reason people from all over the world desire to immigrate to the U.S.A., they recognize it to be the the the best of all the rest.
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"In a word, I want an American character, that the powers of Europe may be convinced we act for ourselves and not for others; this, in my judgment, is the only way to be respected abroad and happy at home." --George Washington |
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Schadow
Vice Admiral
Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 936
Location: Huntsville, Alabama
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:46 am Post subject: |
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| baldeagle wrote: | | There is a reason people from all over the world desire to immigrate to the U.S.A., they recognize it to be the the the best of all the rest. |
Yes, this is certainly the attraction. But today, there's a difference. In the early 20th century, immigrants were truly the "huddled masses yearning to breathe free." There seemed to be, in them, a sincere desire to assimilate and to become Americans. They learned the language, found jobs, raised families and, along the way, became proud citizens.
Such doesn't seem to be the case today. Sure, they seek work and surely raise families but they tend to keep their native languages and segregate themselves into little enclaves in the image of the homeland. There seems to be no drive in them to become Americans, just replicate what they had at home but in an environment of comparatively sane government.
These are generalities, of course, and don't apply to everyone who comes in. But, the alarming fact is that Latinos soon will become, if they haven't already, the "majority minority" in the USA. Demographers predict overall majority status certainly before mid-century if some stringent immigration controls are not put in place and strictly enforced. And at that point, what we now know as "American culture" will have vanished since little balkanized regions will have coalesced into a new culture. It was chilling to listen to Los Angeles mayor Villaragosa exhorting (not chastizing) the crowd with their Mexican flags.
If it takes a real wall, repugnant as that is, let's get on with it. The present politically correct, nuanced dithering in the Congress is going nowhere. I think we owe it to ourselves and our kids and grandkids to try to preserve our culture as much as possible. We and our ancestors created it and, by God, we have a right and duty to maintain it. And, the ghosts of our buddies, who have given their all for it, demand it. [/rant]
Schadow
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Capt, 8th U.S. Army, Korea '53 - '54 |
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sixdogteam
Seaman
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 183
Location: Upper Wabash River Valley
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 11:34 am Post subject: |
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In all of recorded history, throughout the world, 99% of all wars have been fought over Real Estate. One tribe "stealing" land from another.
The only war I ever agreed with was the Trojan War. The men were fighting over a woman, and they knew what they were fighting for!. 
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HHC 212th CAB MMAF RVN '70-'71 |
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LimaCharlie
PO2
Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 386
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| sixdogteam wrote: | In all of recorded history, throughout the world, 99% of all wars have been fought over Real Estate. One tribe "stealing" land from another.
The only war I ever agreed with was the Trojan War. The men were fighting over a woman, and they knew what they were fighting for!. |
If Helen of Troy had a face that could launch a thousand ships, would a face that could launch one ship be a Milli-Helen?
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I was going to become an anarchist, but they had too many rules. |
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Snipe
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 03 Jun 2004
Posts: 574
Location: Peoria, Illinois
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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So how come I keep flashing on "Helen of Thomas"? That face could
clear out the Washington Navy Yard right down the Potomac!
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Tin Can Sailor |
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blue9t3
Admiral
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 1246
Location: oregon
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Snipe"]So how come I keep flashing on "Helen of Thomas"? That face could
clear out the Washington Navy Yard right down the Potomac!
[/quote]
LMAO,I had the same thought.A face like that has to sneak up to a glass of water! 
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DADESID
Seaman
Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 157
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 1:09 am Post subject: |
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| Snipe wrote: | So how come I keep flashing on "Helen of Thomas"? That face could
clear out the Washington Navy Yard right down the Potomac!
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Yeah, I was thinking the same thing...
... Helen Thomas... the face that could sink a thousand ships...
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PhantomSgt
Vice Admiral
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 972
Location: GUAM, USA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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And here i thought Helen was Mooning the President each time the camera was on her. Is that really her face?
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Retired AF E-8
Independent that leans right of center. |
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AMOS
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 558
Location: IOWA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 8:14 pm Post subject: Border |
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| Put old Hell-on at the border. Make 'em think twice about heading North. |
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