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Schadow
Vice Admiral
Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 936
Location: Huntsville, Alabama
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 Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:08 am Post subject: Take No Prisoners |
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The White House and DOD have finally made it official. Our armed forces are to comply with Geneva Article 3 in dealing with terrorists. The liberals and the "international community" have had their way.
The Geneva and Hague Conventions have been thoroughly explored in these forums and I think we understand them pretty well. What I don't understand is why anyone with a functioning brain can conclude that Geneva applies in the war against terror.
Geneva was written when there was no war except symmetric war. More to the point, both sides in a conflict were supposed to abide by its precepts and rules. Today there is no symmetry, and the concept of terrorists following the rules of Geneva/Hague doesn't pass the giggle test. But we're supposed unilaterally to comply. This is madness in its starkest form.
Following WWII, remnants of the Nazi regime ran wild in Germany from 1945 to 1947 sabotaging power plants, rail lines and factories. When caught redhanded, they were summarily executed by US and allied forces. No trial. They had given up their Geneva rights when they went native.
The legal processes that would be necessary to give these present animals their "due process" will become a morass of stays and challenges, egged on by the ACLU, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and liberal congressmen. In the process, much classified information would be outted.
As disquieting as it may be both to American mores and the consciences of individual soldiers, the only answer may be not to create captured terrorists.
Schadow
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Capt, 8th U.S. Army, Korea '53 - '54 |
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USAFE5
PO2
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 362
Location: Reno Nevada
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:39 am Post subject: |
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dead ones work fine with me
question them - according to the country they are in's preferred manner then kill them when they have no more useful information. I mean really they'd kill us without even probing for useful information right? They kill for giggles and grins why not just play by their rules.
We are playing in their sand box aren't we?
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"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I’m here to help." Ronald Reagan |
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GenrXr
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 1720
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:54 am Post subject: |
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We need a strong nationalist leader such as Ronald Reagan again.
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"An activist is the person who cleans up the water, not the one claiming its dirty."
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to stand by and do nothing." Edmund Burke (1729-1797), Founder of Conservative Philosophy |
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dusty
Admiral
Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 1264
Location: East Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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I'm with you Schadow.
This is insane stuff we're dealing with here. Takes seriously twisted minds to even consider the precepts this sort of action toward terrorists requires.
Dusty
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Left and Wrong are the opposite of Right! |
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fortdixlover
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 1476
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:09 pm Post subject: Re: Take No Prisoners |
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| Schadow wrote: | The White House and DOD have finally made it official. Our armed forces are to comply with Geneva Article 3 in dealing with terrorists. The liberals and the "international community" have had their way.
The Geneva and Hague Conventions have been thoroughly explored in these forums and I think we understand them pretty well. What I don't understand is why anyone with a functioning brain can conclude that Geneva applies in the war against terror.
Geneva was written when there was no war except symmetric war. More to the point, both sides in a conflict were supposed to abide by its precepts and rules. Today there is no symmetry, and the concept of terrorists following the rules of Geneva/Hague doesn't pass the giggle test. But we're supposed unilaterally to comply. This is madness in its starkest form.
Following WWII, remnants of the Nazi regime ran wild in Germany from 1945 to 1947 sabotaging power plants, rail lines and factories. When caught redhanded, they were summarily executed by US and allied forces. No trial. They had given up their Geneva rights when they went native.
The legal processes that would be necessary to give these present animals their "due process" will become a morass of stays and challenges, egged on by the ACLU, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and liberal congressmen. In the process, much classified information would be outted.
As disquieting as it may be both to American mores and the consciences of individual soldiers, the only answer may be not to create captured terrorists.
Schadow |
The newspapers have this item - concern for the rights of terrorists - on the front pages, while stories about the butchery of civilians by terrorists appear elsewhere.
Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome to the moral depravity of the leftists of a kind that made vet's lives miserable - and Indochinese life cheap - after the Vietnam war.
At least now more people are beginning to understand the nature of this ideological blight. You cannot fight what you do not recognize.
-- FDL
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"Millions For Defense, Not One Cent For Tribute" - Thomas Jefferson on paying ransom to Muslim corsairs (pirates). |
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JN173
Commander
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 341
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:42 pm Post subject: Re: Take No Prisoners |
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| fortdixlover wrote: |
The newspapers have this item - concern for the rights of terrorists - on the front pages, while stories about the butchery of civilians by terrorists appear elsewhere.
Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome to the moral depravity of the leftists of a kind that made vet's lives miserable - and Indochinese life cheap - after the Vietnam war.
At least now more people are beginning to understand the nature of this ideological blight. You cannot fight what you do not recognize.
-- FDL |
I definitely agree that the MSM is spining the cr*p out of the Court's ruling in their usual manner, but I'm also seeing some of the media sources on the right putting a spin on it too.
I don't believe the decision is correct, but I've read the Court's opinion several times, http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2487638612433437293&q=Veterans, and its appears to me that they have merely said that if we are going to try these people (I use that term very loosely) for violating the Rules of War, of which the Conventions are a part, we should abide by those rules.
The only "rights" they have given these whatever you want to call them are:
Since they are "Persons taking no active part in the hostilities" (Commo Article 3 paragraph 1) at this time and place i.e. in Gitmo and 4 years after capture, "The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples. " Common Article 3 item 1(d).
The Court did not say the President cannot use a military commision to try these #%^%%^, it said the commision convened exceeded the authorization Congress established in the UCMJ therefore it did not meet muster as a regularly constituted court.
The Conventions do not define "the judicial guarantees" any futher than being "recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples." The inference from the Court's decision is that that definitioin is the responsibility of Congress.
I believe that now is the time to launch a campaign to insure that Congress, defines those "guarentees" in an appropriate manner that not hamstring us in this figth for survival.
As an aside in reference to Shadows example of the sabotage in Germany the Court gave a fair summary of the history of US military commisions including a mention of the commision in Germany set up to administer German Criminal Law and where they where used in lieu of civilian courts when martial law had been declared.
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A Grunt
2/503 173rd Airborne Brigade
RVN '65-'66 |
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BuffaloJack
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 1637
Location: Buffalo, New York
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:19 am Post subject: |
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to quote Ralph Peters from his book "When Devils Walk The Earth"
| Quote: | Do not be afraid to be powerful. Cold War-era gambits of proportionate response and dialog may have some utility in dealing with practical terrorists, but they are counter-productive in dealing with apocalyptic terrorists. Our great strengths are wealth and raw power. When we fail to bring those strengths to bear, we contribute to our own defeat. For a superpower to think small—which has been our habit across the last decade, at least—is self-defeating folly. Our responses to terrorist acts should make the world gasp.
Whenever legal conditions permit, kill terrorists on the spot (do not give them a chance to surrender, if you can help it). Contrary to academic wisdom, the surest way to make a martyr of a terrorist is to capture, convict and imprison him, leading to endless efforts by sympathizers to stage kidnappings, hijacking and other events intended to liberate the imprisoned terrorist(s). This is war, not law enforcement. |
A dead terrorist derives no benefit from the Geneva Convention, which is the way we like it.
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Swift Boats - Qui Nhon (12/69-4/70), Cat Lo (4/70-5/70), Vung Tau (5/70-12/71) |
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