SwiftVets.com

[old_sarge]

I've read a number of the postings here and followed a link to wintersoldier.com where I read most of the postings in the 'incoming' section. I sent them this as a posting for that section but they weren't interested and thought I had you and them confused. So I'm posting it here instead, for what it's worth.

Go ahead, hurt my feelings.



I am a veteran of the first Gulf War and a retired
noncommissioned officer. During that war I saw
limited combat, nothing like the intense combat seen
by most veterans in Vietnam. While deployed, I
contracted an infection that was never diagnosed and
inadequately treated, which I later passed on to my
ex-wife and stepson who, to the best of my knowledge,
remain disabled by it today. I was lucky and received
antibiotic treatment in a study that has since been
suppressed by the DoD and the VA. To this day I
practice daily invasive and inconvenient self-care
procedures to keep myself from becoming disabled and
reduce the chance that I might again cause an illness
in a loved one. I believe that even with my limited
experience I can understand, to some degree, the
meanings of words like service, sacrifice, and
betrayal.

John Kerry volunteered to serve when the opportunity
was there for him to easily avoid service. He served
honorably and came to believe that what the country
had asked of him and others of his generation was
wrong. He had the courage to stand up for his
convictions even though he had a lot to lose by doing
so. You can argue that he was wrong or disagree with
what he did, but calling him a liar or putting his
statements out of context in a television ad, however
fashionable it may be to attack the integrity of a
veteran, does nothing to make your own service and
sacrifice any more honorable or valorous.

(Deleted by Admin)

Admin note:

The purpose of this forum to facilitate the discussion of our strong conviction that John Kerry is unfit to serve as our CIC. To the degree that you address that conviction, either pro or con, your observations are welcome here. Your opinions as to the relative qualifications of other candidates are irrelevant to the purpose of this forum. If you wish to express those views, we suggest that you choose another forum in which to air them.

Somebody told me that it was George Washington who
said that our sons will come to view the value of
service based on how they see their fathers treated.
I think we need a veteran as President, and John Kerry
may be the last chance we have to get one for a long
time. I sincerely hope that in the years I have left
I am never, never ever, found to publicly savage the
service or the integrity of a fellow veteran, for any
reason.

Thank you for your brave and loyal service in Vietnam.
I was old enough to go to that one but found a way
out of it. Welcome home.


Hal Nelson
Seattle, Washington
American Legion post 110
SSG, USA, ret

[GoophyDog]

Mr. Nelson. I salute and thank you for your service.

As for the rest of your drivel perhaps you need to take the rusty Seattle blinders off and really look at the man you so admire and place your trust in.

Kerry volunteered just like countless others, to avoid the lack of choice that the draft brings. He was against the war from the beginning, through his service and after so what other conclusion can you draw?

Kerry lied - there's no way to soft-sell that one. Years of on-record statements that had no relation to actual facts. Those are lies. They are not misstatements or faulty memories, they are LIES.

The advertisement out of context? I see you've learned the party line well and just like the rest of your governemnt dole sucking ilk you will never point out how.

As for the infection you suffered, there has been several opportunities for more in-depth studies on the GW syndrome but your buddy shot them down either voting against the funding or failing to show up for the vote at all. Where was his integrity then Sarg? You've suffered horribly I'm sure but check your six bud because you can lay it right smack dab in the lap of your west-sider party.

As a fellow serviceman I'll respect you but as an under-educated, over propogandized mouth piece who depends on his nightly pablum of 2 second sound bites you fall far below the mark otherwise.

Just a final note you hipocrite, service in the guard still makes you veteran. Hate Bush all you like but DON'T try to come off holier than all after such a two-faced diatribe as you attempted to present.
_________________
Why ask? Because it needs asking.

[old_sarge]

Thanks for the name-calling. I expected it. Enjoy yourself, but don't expect to get the same back. And I think the taxpayers got their money's worth from my 20 years' service.

Yes, the ad does take Kerry's comment out of context because it doesn't identify his comments as reports that he heard at the conference in Detroit, i.e., the wintersoldier conference, but presents them as his own testimony. In that respect it's deceptive. Some of the comments on wintersoldier.com make much of the fact that none of that testimony has ever been proven. I guess Kerry didn't have a half million dollars in Republican soft money to check out the stories he was getting at the time. Frankly, I can remember a lot of what I did during my late teens and early 20's and a lot of it was way stupider than anything I've heard Kerry accused of.

I trained a lot of the soldiers in the Oregon and Washington National Guard who are over fighting in Iraq right now, and you can bet that I honor and admire their service. That's why I'm doing my best to look out for them.

I was at the Kerry rally in Tacoma on Saturday, and Rassmann, I guess his name is, the guy he fished out of the drink, and that a lot of the guys here are busy calling a liar, was one of the speakers before him. He talked about the swift boat vets and a lot of the people in the crowd wanted to boo and hiss. But he stopped it, and told the people who wanted to boo that they should honor their service. I applauded him for that.

I'd like to see more of that kind of spirit all the way around, but it's probably a lot to hope for. I didn't go to the Vietnam war, and if I had, I'd probably be as full of anger and bitterness as some of the people whose posts I've read here. I've spent a lot of time talking to chaplains since I found out I crippled my old lady.

If you were in the Coast Guard beginning in 1976, I'm guessing that you didn't go to Vietnam either. I guess we both have to honor those whose service we respect and admire in our own ways. Thanks for serving.

[Wing Wiper]

Well, old_sarge, I think if you read the posts on here you'll find that there's not a lot of people giving Rassmann the benefit of the doubt on his testimony, too. Considering that he admits to having been thrown overboard and spending most of the time in question underwater, I'm not sure he was in the best position to clarify what was going on. Kerry sure seems to count on him to verify a lot of things he was in a poor position to comment on. You be the judge, but that's what I've seen. Good luck to you, it sounds like you could use some right now.

[USMC-Pride]

You must never forget kerry decided his vietnam service was his main qualification for President, if he didn't think so he would have spent more than 27 seconds on his 19 year record in the senate in his speech to the nation at the convention. He said judge him by his record, and people are trying to find out just exactly what version of his, is the truth so they can.

The gaurd and reserves lost 6,077 lives in Nam fighting right alongside of everyone else. There are also 140 Medal of Honor winners who have served in the gaurd. And every time you DNC talking point readers rip the Presidents SERVICE in the guard you disrespect everyone of them. If the Bush's have so much clout . Why did he even serve at all?? And why did he choose the oh so safe job of being a f-102 jet pilot and not a cook or plumber?(no offense intended to any cooks or plumbers) The President is a Veteran and that is undisputable!!


FACT: George W. Bush volunteered for extra service time to be trained as a jet pilot, no walk in the park itself, and voluntarily requested the release of 450 pages of his own personal military records, and they have been misrepresented and propagandized to attack him. Why won't kerry sign SF180 to release his records???

Here is more from a article by Don Bendell

MYTH: Dubya was a draft-dodgin’ Air National Guardsmen who went AWOL in Alabama while Kerry heroically volunteered to serve in Vietnam. A few quotes from a letter from Air National Guard COL. William Campenni (retired) of Herndon, Va., who served as a pilot with President Bush in the Texas Air National Guard “If the 111th FIS and Lt. Bush did not go to Vietnam, blame President Johnson and Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara, not lowly Lt. Bush. They deliberately avoided use of the Guard and Reserves for domestic political calculations, knowing that a draftee only stirred up the concerns of one family, while a call-up got a whole community's attention.” “Because of the training required, signing up for this duty meant up to 2½ years of active duty for training alone, plus a high probability of mobilization.” “Our Texas ANG unit lost several planes right there in Houston during Lt. Bush's tenure, with fatalities. Just strapping on one of those obsolescing F-102s was risking one's life.” “Well, as for abandoning his assignment, this is untrue. Lt. Bush was excused for a period to take employment in Florida for a congressman and later in Alabama for a Senate campaign. Excusals for employment were common then and are now in the Air Guard, as pilots frequently are in career transitions . . .” “there is no instance of Lt. Bush disobeying lawful orders in reporting for a physical, as none would be given. Pilots are scheduled for their annual flight physicals in their birth month during that month's weekend drill . . .” “Also, the formal drug testing program was not instituted by the Air Force until the 1980s and is done randomly by lot, not as a special part of a flight physical . . .”

Also, from a reference site regarding George W. Bush’s unit and his jet, the F102: “A total of 15 F-102 fighters were lost over Vietnam.” “Even in peacetime conditions, F-102 pilots risked their lives on every flight.”

SEMPER FI


[/quote]
_________________
"Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exiled, or hanged."
-- President Abraham Lincoln

[old_sarge]

Glad to get hollered at, but there's a limit to what I'll be able to respond to in detail, although I'll try. And what I can't answer, I try to check out. I'm not saying w's service was dishonorable, only that he got into a champagne unit, when from what I understand his pilot aptitude scores weren't that high. It's not so much of a stretch to say he probably got there because his dad was a congressman. Lots of people found ways to avoid service in Vietnam and I was one of them. Fortunately, or unfortunately for me, depending how you look at it, I realized afterward that the opportunity for me to serve was still there and couldn't see any reason not to go for it.

Rassmann probably did spend more time underwater than on the surface, at least he says he did, because in his account every time he surfaced he saw small arms impacts so he submerged again to keep from getting shot. What I've read on this from third parties who have tried to sort out what was happening on this from all the witnesses is that most of the guys in the the two boats on the right side of the river generally support Kerry's account, that there was enemy small arms fire coming in, and most of the guys on the boats on the left side of the river that day say there wasn't. To me a lot of this argument seems like splitting hairs. During my time in the gulf I saw about one day of contact and even that wasn't continuous or against a determined enemy. Some of my soldiers came back and had such tall tales to tell I'd be embarrassed to repeat them. But they served with honor and fortitude, and when we got back I did everything I could to get them schools, awards, whatever I could do for them. So if Kerry has told some war stories that stretched the truth it's hard for me to get too scandalized over it. As far as I can tell, nobody doubts that he was over there, that he volunteered, or that he performed the duties he was supposed to and got shot at.

It's way late and I've got to hit the rack. I'll try to come back on and take whatever hits I can tomorrow. Thanks to everybody who's come on the thread so far.

[old_sarge]

It seems my comments comparing Kerry's concern for veterans to those of his opponent in the White House were a little too much truth for swift boat veterans for truth to swallow. I'm happy to carry on a good conversation with veteran brothers who disagree with me, but I have too much going on this summer to spend time playing silly games. If you missed the original post before it got censored, and are interested, I'll look for a site where I can re-post it without the deletions and those who are interested can have a look and discuss it with me if they want to.

[USMC-Pride]

Rassman aside. How do you feel about His activity after the war? His war crimes admissions? his failure to report the war crimes he says he witnessed?His meeting with the enemy in paris? His activity while leader of the VVAW?

The well documented things he did and said after he came back are punishable under the, UCMJ, The Sedition act, and The Constitution Amendment 14, section 3. We should also be investigating if he was at the VVAW meeting where the group plotted to have U.S. Senators assasinated or not, seems there may be some evidence that he was there. Why do his supporters ignore this and give him a free pass on all of this? I guess it all depends on what your definition of "is" is.

I also just noticed your post about kerrys concern for veterans, well lets take a look at his concern for us shall we? This is from an article by don bendell

Each session of Congress is 2 years in length.

In the eighties, in the 99th Congress, Kerry's first two years, when you would think he would be full of enthusiasm and eager to fix things, Kerry proposed 1 measly veteran-related bill, S1033. It died. In the 100th Congress, he proposed 1 measly veteran-related bill, S1510. It died, too. The 101st Congress, he proposed 1 measly veteran-related bill, S2128. It also died, but he did propose an amendment to a bill S2884. It died.

Then, in the 102nd , 103rd , 104th, 105th , 106th , and 107th sessions of Congress, 12 years, Kerry proposed ZERO bills related to veterans issues, his "Band of Brothers."

Finally, in the 108th Congress, closing in on two decades of seniority, but more importantly, deciding to run for the Presidency, Kerry sponsored 1 measly veteran-related bill, S1112. It died.

Now, Chief Hypocrite John F. Kerry, and his ardent supporters, attack Bush to divert his own miserable record, especially as it relates to those he calls his "Band of Brothers." When anybody like me fires back, they are pounced-upon and denounced as "mud-slingers."

Here is some factual mud: George W. Bush has increased military pay 21%. Kerry voted against military pay raises 12 times.

Kerry and his spinners have said that Bush is decimating the Veterans Administration. FACT: According to factscheck.org, Bush's 2005 fiscal budget increases VA funding by 40% over when Bush took office, Bush has cut administrative time in VA by half, the Annenberg Center says that funding for veterans under Bush is increasing twice as fast under Bush as it did under Clinton, and vets getting health benefits now has increased by over 27% under Bush.

End of excerpt
_________________
"Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exiled, or hanged."
-- President Abraham Lincoln

[HOV1]

[rb325th]

Old_Sarge, as one Paratrooper to another, you have got to understand that things were edited from your comments not to silence you, but because of the nature of this site.
This Site is about the men who served in Vietnam with Kerry or were effected by his actions afterwards. It is about seeing to it that a man who spat in the face of his fellow Veterans time after time, broke U.S. Law (met with members of the N. Vietnamese Govt. in Paris at a time we were at war), withheld information from Law Enforcment regarding the discussion of Assasination of U.S. Officials, and exagerated his time in Vietnam, took an out he did not deserve (3 PHs and the first has already been shown to be a bogus award), does not become the Commander in Chief.
He has shown with past actions alone he is undeserving of that post, he has shown himself to be at the very least a person of major inconsistencies and unable to stay on track with his own words or actions.
You may have some legitimate gripes about some other things, but this is not the Forum in wich to air them. There are a number of other Forums out there that you can go and debate VA Benefits and Presidnt Bush. This is not the place.
So stick around and read what these men have to say about what happened in Vietnam and what happened to them when they came home..
Thanks for your Service, Airborne All the Way!
3/325 AIR, 4/325 ABCT/AIR 1983-1987
_________________
U.S. Army 1983-1995, 11C1P/11H2P NBTDT

[FF1047]

Sarge,

Sounds like Kerry admitting he wasn't in Cambodia at Christmas time (his words not the Swit Vets) and that his first PH "may" have been self inflicted (his spokemans words not the Swift Vets) are too much for you to swallow ...

so go ahead and attack GWB on your own time, lets talk about Mr. "Atrocites carried out on a Day to Day basis" Kerry's words and actions.

if you think you are being "yelled at" try posting a positive GWB comment on the Moveon site ... you'll really get yelled at then ...
_________________
JJC
USNA class of 1980

[roughfun]

Old Sarge. Your own words say volumes.. Kerry trashed vets while they were still fighting for their lives and trying to make it home alive to their loved ones. He gave aid aid and comfort to the enemy not after the hostilities but while they were going on. Would you do that to your fellow vet. From your letter you would have no prob.. Glad I wasnt in a foxhole with you. Did you you ever think that you put duty and honor before your own selfish self. Roughfun
_________________
USMC 67-71. Two tours two PHs both from Hue City, Tet 68. Didnt have to ask for them they just gave them to me. Great site. Its an uphill battle but truth wins in the end. Semper Fi

[AMOS]

I'm not gonna learn anything here.

Semper Fidelis.

Amos.

[Grampa]

Old Sarge,

I served in Iraqi Freedom last year. If you think John Kerry gives two turds about servicemen you are fooling yourself.

1. When we can't be used by him as willing stage props to make himself look good ie; the Dem convention, he vilifies us as drunken bitter men or political operatives.

2. He cut and ran after fours months in country at the first opportunity which shows his lack of leadership as an officer. He slandered his brother veterans when he got home to pave the way for election in a liberal leftist state.

3. He has lied and continues to lie about his service record in order to fool gullible people with no military experience into thinking he is "all that".

4. There is evidence that he falsified government documents in order to receive decorations for which he isn't entitled. He is a felon if that is true.

5. He besmirched the honor and integrity of millions of veterans 30 years ago, admitted to committing war crimes himself and then has the gall to run as a "war hero". He may have you fooled but my BS detector redlined long ago with this clown.

He is a self serving opportunist ass. Think what you want of GW, but THIS guy is not fit to serve as my boss. THIS guy needs to go. I don't trust him with MY troops. No f*cking way.

SFC Theodore Hales
_________________
Iraqi Freedom 2003-2004. We won't take any of that 1960s crap when We come home!

[Daniel J. Hutchison]

For all of his flip-flop Senator Kerry does get it partly right some times, even if he attacks the wrong individual. I think now that Senator Kerry was looking in the mirror when in made statements following the untimely suicide of Adm. Boorda in 1996,

Senator Kerry stated "If you wind up being less than what you're pretending to be, there is a major confornatiion with value and self-esteem and your sense of how others view you." "Is it wrong? Yes, it is very wrong. Sufficient to question his leadership position? The answer is yes, which he clearly understood." "In a sense, there's nothing that says more about your career than when you fought, where you fought and how your fought."

It was very sad when Adm. Boorda was dirven to suicide because of questions raised, but never documented, about a combat "V" clip. It drives home the point that all veterans know, it is anly after great thought and reflection that I would question anyones awards. However, there is a limit to the phony use of overstated (lies) accomplishments for personel gain that one can take. Senator Kerry has been found to be less than what he was pretending to be. Sufficient to question his leadership position? The answer is yes, which Senator Kerry clearly does not understand.

Keep up the good work. I know it has been very hard to speak out, but again you all have shown the great courage of the American Veteran and you are again defending the United States with no personal agenda.

On a lighter note has anyone else notied that it has gottten to "warm" for Senator Kerry to wear his "bomber Jacket".