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sparky
Former Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546
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 Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 7:54 am Post subject: |
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"one of the most undeserved Silver Stars in history"
Sounds Bush backers have a severe case of "medal envy." Can't blame 'em...they know that Bush's being barred from flying, his refusal to take the physical/urinalysis, his failure to show up is going to really become more obvious as the election draws near and running against someone with so many pesky medals. |
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carpro
Admin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 1176
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| sparky wrote: | "one of the most undeserved Silver Stars in history"
Sounds Bush backers have a severe case of "medal envy." Can't blame 'em...they know that Bush's being barred from flying, his refusal to take the physical/urinalysis, his failure to show up is going to really become more obvious as the election draws near and running against someone with so many pesky medals. |
That quote was about LBJ. Same old tactic. Change the subject when you can't handle the one in front of you.
Once again, it's not about Bush. He's not claiming to be a hero and deserving to be President because of it.
No trivializing of medals here. Medals are trivialized when they are sought and handed out when they are undeserved.
The question is. Did Kerry deserve a medal or should he have been charged with a crime?
_________________
"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service." |
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ROTC DAD
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 1:16 pm Post subject: Out of context. |
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Me #1 You #10,
You quote one line I wrote out of context to make a rather lame arguement. If you'll read the rest of my post, you'll see that I state that he fought for the right for you to have the opinions you have as well.
As for your comment about God-given rights: They may be God-given, but if you look at the way the World is, you'll see there are many more places where a person's God-given rights are subjugated to the tyranny of men than there are places where those rights are protected. As is customary, arguements such as yours are made without reasoning or thought, just an attempt to obscure the issue.
Greenhat,
What does LBJ's Silver Star have to do with anything? So now we're now going to smear LBJ about his Silver Star? I found this a bit hypocritical on your part. You argue that Kerry smeared a whole generation of Vets, but by bringing up what you and some others consider irregularities in how medals are awarded, you by your own logic now smear everyone who has ever been awarded a Silver Star. Is that really what you want to do? |
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carpro
Admin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 1176
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: He earned the right! |
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| ROTC DAD wrote: | Whatever you think of what Kerry did or did not do when he came back from Vietnam, he earned the right to do them! He went, he got shot, he saved people's lives in combat, he even killed people in combat, all because his country asked him to. And his reward for all of this was a few medals and the emnity of a group of people with nothing better to do than try to smear him.
He earned the right to disagree with the war. He earned the right to have his opinion. And, btw, he fought for the right for you to have yours. Perhaps you should think about that when you go on about his medals. |
He did not earn the right to slander his brothers while their lives were still on the line. I don't think it is possible to earn that right.
But, since he painted all of his brothers with the war crimes brush, and likes to brag about his medals, its a fair question to ask if he committed a crime himself in the process of picking up a medal.
Do you have an opinion on that question?
_________________
"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service." |
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waltjones
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 392
Location: 'bout 40 miles north of Seattle
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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To all you Kerry political operatives (sparky, ROTC_DAD, Hesiod, ad nauseum):
I don't think you have any idea why we - that is MOST Vietnam vets hate Kerry. I also don't believe you are, or have any knowledge of Vietnam vets. I was in-country 19 months - no atrocities, no reports of them, not even any rumours. In the entire Vietnam war, there were only 2 documented. Get something straight, wannabes: it's not political; John ******* Kerry is a ***** - more precisely, a traitor, liar, slanderer and a betrayer of all his comrades-in-arms. I would be more than happy to tell him that to his face. You aren't qualified to judge; I believe you are here just to defend Kerry for political reasons, but you're just clutter. Semper Fi (as if that has any meaning for you).
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Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor. |
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ROTC DAD
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 3:01 pm Post subject: Yes, I do. |
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Actually, he did earn the right to say those things. Your problem shouldn't be with whether he could or could not say those things, but whether or not you agree or disagree with what he said.
Obviously, you disagree. That is your right, as it was his right to make the remarks he made at the time. That has not changed.
Trying to say he did something wrong by making those remarks is reaching way beyond what can be considered reasonable. Freedom of speech does not place the kinds of limits or restrictions which you and many of the others on this forum who disagree with Kerry wish to place.
As for war crimes, I believe the word that was used was atrocities. Can you state that no atrocities were committed in Vietnam? In fact, war itself is an atrocity. Sometimes necessary; sometimes not, but an atrocity nonetheless. |
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Me#1You#10
Site Admin
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 6503
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| ROTC DAD wrote: | boatsturley,
You seem to believe that politicians by nature are inherently honest and do not compromise their positions now and again. What Planet do you live on? |
Strawman. That's your characterization of his "belief", unsubstantiated by anything in his post, followed by ad hominem belittling the same allegation. You're starting to get a bit frayed around the rhetorical edges.
And I note, as well, that your ad hominem prediliction appears to be rising fast. Would it be helpful if I begin to list them?
| Quote: | | Because Kerry may or may not have hedged on things he said after the Vietnam War and since does not make him any less of a hero during the War. He earned his medals. That is indisputable. |
May or may not have (cough cough) "hedged" on things? I guess that's about as much as we can expect from a Kerry apologist. Translated from Kerry-speak into King's English, he's an established liar...now it's simply a matter of degree and circumstance. "Indisputable"? It's already in dispute...and, IMO, with some pretty credible evidence.
| Quote: | | If you choose to attack him for having opinions different than yours - fine. If you choose to attack him because you believe he is not the best representative for the US - fine. But arguing that he is somehow a traitor because he didn't report a meeting of Vietnam Vets he went to is ridiculous. |
I guess I'll have to agree with you on this one...but not because of merit (or lack of) in the argument. My instinct is that this is a bit of a stretch, although I hadn't considered the issue till it was presented here, and it may be a credible one. But merit notwithstanding, I think it's a political non-starter as it would be too tough a sell in our sound-byte world. Kerry has given us more than enough rope to hang him...I'm not sure time spent on this issue is worth the investment.
| Quote: | | Kerry served honorably and with valor. |
In certain regards, during his abbreviated tour, that's a possibility. But so did millions of other Vietnam Vets...and they didn't manipulate and pervert both the letter and spirit of the Purple Heart to bugger out of country at the first opportunity, and then so disingenuously imply that it was his UNITS policy to send him home, kicking and screaming.
| Quote: |
March 17, 1969 – The policy of Coastal Squadron One, the swift boat command, was to send home any individual who is wounded three times in action. After sustaining his third wound from enemy action in Vietnam, Kerry was granted relief under this policy.
Kerry's Web Page
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What a blatant, disingenuous mis-characterization of his tour termination. As was so eloquently stated earlier, most served their country. Some served themselves.
| Quote: | | What he did or didn't do 30 years ago after he returned shouldn't matter. |
That's nonsense on the face of both contemporary political reality and history, and suggests a level of diversionary and obfuscatory rhetoric that's damn near laughable. If I might borrow a phrase,
what planet are YOU living on sport?
| Quote: | | If it does, then we have to ask where was Bush 30 years ago? |
Asked and answered ad nauseam for 5 years by both a militant opposition and (dare I say?) a less than friendly media. You can't sell it to America? Tough noogies pal. Better work harder. We will.
<snip>redundant rhetoric |
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: Yes, I do. |
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| ROTC DAD wrote: | | Actually, he did earn the right to say those things. |
Earned the right? Is that kind of like you're "earned medals"?
You've never served, have you? You don't know what you are talking about.
When Kerry took his commissioning oath, he agreed to be bound by rules and regulations that meant that he did NOT have the right to say those things.
But, like most things with John F. Kerry, his oath was a lie.
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De Oppresso Liber |
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carpro
Admin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 1176
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 3:54 pm Post subject: Re: Yes, I do. |
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| ROTC DAD wrote: | Actually, he did earn the right to say those things. Your problem shouldn't be with whether he could or could not say those things, but whether or not you agree or disagree with what he said.
Obviously, you disagree. That is your right, as it was his right to make the remarks he made at the time. That has not changed.
Trying to say he did something wrong by making those remarks is reaching way beyond what can be considered reasonable. Freedom of speech does not place the kinds of limits or restrictions which you and many of the others on this forum who disagree with Kerry wish to place.
As for war crimes, I believe the word that was used was atrocities. Can you state that no atrocities were committed in Vietnam? In fact, war itself is an atrocity. Sometimes necessary; sometimes not, but an atrocity nonetheless. |
As usual, when confronted with a clear question that can be answered simply....duck, dodge, weave, then change the subject.
I would very much like to ask Kerry the same question face to face and watch him duck, dodge, weave, then change the subject.
By the way, since we're talking about earning certain things, and you won't deal with the question that is the subject of this thread...Have you ever done one single thing that could be considered service to your country?
_________________
"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service." |
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: Out of context. |
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| ROTC DAD wrote: |
Greenhat,
What does LBJ's Silver Star have to do with anything? |
You're the one who seems to think that Kerry's Silver Star proves something about him. I'm just pointing out that Silver Stars are not earned, they are awarded. And the criteria by which they are awarded can be pretty pathetic.
I know a number of folks who wear Silver Stars. Everyone of those I know personally is a brave man. And everyone, without exception, knows of someone else who deserved the award as much or more than they did, but didn't get one.
Don't try to bs me about what medals mean. BTDT, got the ribbons to prove it. They don't mean ****. It is the man who makes the medals, not the other way around.
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De Oppresso Liber |
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Me#1You#10
Site Admin
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 6503
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: Yes, I do. |
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| carpro wrote: |
By the way, since we're talking about earning certain things, and you won't deal with the question that is the subject of this thread...Have you ever done one single thing that could be considered service to your country? |
Carpro, please. The question you pose is irrelevant. He is a citizen and is exercising his rights as a citizen. He doesn't need to qualify that right, nor should you even ask.
Please consider the edit function.
Last edited by Me#1You#10 on Thu May 13, 2004 4:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: Yes, I do. |
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| Me#1You#10 wrote: | | carpro wrote: |
By the way, since we're talking about earning certain things, and you won't deal with the question that is the subject of this thread...Have you ever done one single thing that could be considered service to your country? |
Carpro, please. The question you pose is irrelevant. He is a citizen and is exercising his rights as a citizen. He doesn't need to qualify that right, nor should you even ask. |
Completely unnecessary. His answers make it evident.
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De Oppresso Liber |
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ROTC DAD
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 4:06 pm Post subject: Whose BSing whom? |
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Greenhat,
I'm not trying to bs anyone; I'm just trying to point out that you have a double standard when it comes to debate. You have no problem arguing that we're hypocrites because of our position, but when the same claim is made against you - with proof I might add - you cry fowl. That in itself is hypocritical.
If you can't debate the issue honestly, how can you complain? |
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mikest
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 377
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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While you guys argue about who deserves what medal, the admin you back has been giving them out to civilian contractors. Interesting that the Bush administration says they support the troops but has privitized much of the support structure, sometimes with terrible results, and awards them medals as if they where in uniform as opposed to earning hundreds of thousands of dollars.
| Quote: | Line Increasingly Blurred Between Soldiers and Civilian Contractors
By Ariana Eunjung Cha and Renae Merle
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, May 13, 2004; Page A01
While on missions in Iraq last year, 35-year-old Todd Drobnick was attacked by small-arms fire, grenades and makeshift bombs. Yet he continued to go out day after day, until he died in a vehicle crash on his way from one U.S. military base to another. For his loyalty and dedication, he was posthumously awarded a Purple Heart and Bronze Star.
Thousands of Americans in Iraq have received such honors, but Drobnick's case was unusual: He wasn't a soldier. He was a private contractor working with a translation company. |
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22547-2004May12.html |
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carpro
Admin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 1176
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 4:18 pm Post subject: Re: Yes, I do. |
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| Me#1You#10 wrote: | | carpro wrote: |
By the way, since we're talking about earning certain things, and you won't deal with the question that is the subject of this thread...Have you ever done one single thing that could be considered service to your country? |
Carpro, please. The question you pose is irrelevant. He is a citizen and is exercising his rights as a citizen. He doesn't need to qualify that right, nor should you even ask.
Please consider the edit function. |
Not irrelevant at all. ROTC said Kerry "earned" the right to slander his brothers. I assume by "earned" he means served his country in Vietnam. By his definition, I have "earned " the right to ask questions about Kerrys service. I just wnat to know if he has "earned" the right to question my questions.
Even Boy Scouts or Bluebirds would do.
_________________
"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service." |
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