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carpro
Admin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 1176
Location: Texas
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 Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 4:22 pm Post subject: Re: Whose BSing whom? |
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| ROTC DAD wrote: | Greenhat,
I'm not trying to bs anyone; I'm just trying to point out that you have a double standard when it comes to debate. You have no problem arguing that we're hypocrites because of our position, but when the same claim is made against you - with proof I might add - you cry fowl. That in itself is hypocritical.
If you can't debate the issue honestly, how can you complain? |
You still haven't even approached the subject of this thread.
What do you think? Did Kerry commit murder while picking up his silver star? It's hard to have a debate if you keep changing the subject.
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"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service." |
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mikest
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 377
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | What do you think? Did Kerry commit murder while picking up his silver star? It's hard to have a debate if you keep changing the subject. |
It's impossible to know, but this is inuendo anyway. Wellcome to the territory of the ******** who called you guys baby killers when you got home. |
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ROTC DAD
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 4:35 pm Post subject: To All Those Who Question My Patriotism - |
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Me #1 you #10, carpro, Greenhat,
In my posts on this forum I have never questioned your patriotism, your duty to country, your record as a past military man or woman, or even your beliefs.
What I have questioned and continue to question is why you believe that Kerry's military record is somehow unsubstatiated. To this point, none of you have replied honestly or openly. You attack his character, you attack what he said after returning from Vietnam, you attack the medals he received there, but you have not shown one shred of factually-based evidence that Kerry did not serve, served dishonorably, or in any fashion behaved in a manner not becoming an officer.
You make wild accusations and shout about what he said when he retruned. You state that all Vietnam Vets hate Kerry. That is not true - I can think of two, at least, who think the world of him, as he saved their lives.
The facts here are that you really have no factual arguements, only your personal opinions why you dislike him. Again, that's not an issue. If you wish to dislike him for whatever reason, you have the right to do so. As others have the right to like him.
Me#1You#10 - Your denying the issue of Bush's service (or non-service, whatever the case), does not make it less of an issue if we are going to argue what happened over 30 years ago. My other points in that post, you nearly agree with me on. Imagine that.
As for your statement about perverting the rules of the Purple Heart to bugger out, I don't know how many used that rule to leave Vietnam early. I would argue that you don't either.
carpro - he said atrocities, not war crimes. But I'm sure you know that and choose to ignore it as it does not fit with your political agenda.
As for your personal attacks on my patriotism (here I exclude Me#1You#10 - thank you for understanding what the Constitution says) - I find it offensive and will admit that it stings to be so labeled. I won't lower the level of debate here any further with letting you know what I think, except to say perhaps if you had something to say, you wouldn't need to resort to personal attacks. |
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carpro
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Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 1176
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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I see. Thank you for clearing it up for me.
Questions are now personal atacks.
I'll take a moment to clear this up for you. Kerry did not "earn " the right to say anything. Neither have I nor have you. It is a God given right and it is protected by the Constitution of the United States.
Along with that right comes responsibility. If some people believe you got out of line or hurt them or others by your exercise of that right. They then have the right to hold you accountable.
That's what we are doing.
My question that opened this thread still remains. If you believe asking a question is a personal attack, you'll just have to live with it. You don't have to answer at all or you could just say you don't know.
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"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service." |
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ROTC DAD
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 5:07 pm Post subject: Again, just the post you want to see. |
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carpro,
Among other things, you question whether or not I served as though by serving or not serving you have some greater or lesser insight and/or patriotic stature because of it. You also ignore that I said he fought for our right to say what we think, whether or not a person served or did not serve.
Did Kerry commit murder for the Silver Star he was awarded. I don't know. Neither do you. Neither you nor I was there. You have simply made the assumption he did because it suits your purpose. |
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sparky
Former Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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ROTC Dad, you bring up some very important points.
Have any of you Kerry-haters petitioned the Department of Defense to change the rules you think so unfair or unjust?
Kerry isn't claiming he *enjoyed* Vietnam. He is claiming that he served bravely, risked his life, saved lives and left when the rules permitted him to leave.
If existing rules permit someone to "bugger out" those rules should be changed. Oddly enough, Kerry critics have had over 30 years to register their complaint with the system and only now seem to give a crap.
Sounds like medal-envy to me! |
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sparky
Former Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Among other things, you question whether or not I served as though by serving or not serving you have some greater or lesser insight and/or patriotic stature because of it. |
They're really trying to discredit anyone who didn't serve, aren't they? It's a cheap debate tactic..."Oh? You didn't serve? Well, you can't possibly have an opinion about this. You just wouldn't understand. You'll have to take my word for it and just let me do all the talking.
This rule applies to everyone except the GOP leadership, all lacking in medals, service records, Vietnam experience but rich in manipulative rhetoric, callow and insincere flag waving, and lust for foreign adventures when others do the dying. A BushCorp Inc trademark. |
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carpro
Admin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 1176
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 5:41 pm Post subject: Re: To All Those Who Question My Patriotism - |
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| ROTC DAD wrote: | Me #1 you #10, carpro, Greenhat,
In my posts on this forum I have never questioned your patriotism, your duty to country, your record as a past military man or woman, or even your beliefs.
As for your personal attacks on my patriotism (here I exclude Me#1You#10 - thank you for understanding what the Constitution says) - I find it offensive and will admit that it stings to be so labeled. I won't lower the level of debate here any further with letting you know what I think, except to say perhaps if you had something to say, you wouldn't need to resort to personal attacks. |
No you haven"t but other Kerry supporters have with a bunch of not so nice names thrown in, to boot.
As for the "personal attack", it was still just a question. But it was meant to make you pause and think about it.
Now , imagine that you are a Vietnam vet, or better yet currently serving in Vietnam whan a fellow vet named Kerry repeated horrible allegations without substantiating or investigating any of them. Then he made it appear his charges of murder, rape, and arson were so widespread that they were everyday and commonplace. Yet you had returned home from 13 months in Vietnam as a Marine Infantryman and had not done any of those things or seen any of those things, but now everyone you tell about your service thinks you did.
Would you take that personal? Or be "stung" to be so labeled?
I did and still do!
Thanks for your answer.
PS I apologize. I did not intend to question your patriotism, only make you think about where we are coming from.
_________________
"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service." |
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 6:04 pm Post subject: Re: Whose BSing whom? |
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| ROTC DAD wrote: | Greenhat,
I'm not trying to bs anyone; I'm just trying to point out that you have a double standard when it comes to debate. You have no problem arguing that we're hypocrites because of our position, but when the same claim is made against you - with proof I might add - you cry fowl. That in itself is hypocritical.
If you can't debate the issue honestly, how can you complain? |
I believe that the problem here is that you need to take a class on logic. I have yet to see the same claim made.
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De Oppresso Liber |
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 6:09 pm Post subject: Re: To All Those Who Question My Patriotism - |
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| ROTC DAD wrote: | | but you have not shown one shred of factually-based evidence that Kerry did not serve, served dishonorably, or in any fashion behaved in a manner not becoming an officer. |
No? Since when do honorable Officers meet with the enemy?
Since when do they NOT REPORT plots against the government of the United States?
If you think that is a manner becoming of a Naval Officer? You need to read the Uniform Code of Military Justice and think about what it says. Carefully.
Oh, and while you are at it, look up Article 88 and tell me again how Kerry served honorably.
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waltjones
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 392
Location: 'bout 40 miles north of Seattle
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 6:13 pm Post subject: Right on, carpro |
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"Now , imagine that you are a Vietnam vet, or better yet currently serving in Vietnam whan a fellow vet named Kerry repeated horrible allegations without substantiating or investigating any of them. Then he made it appear his charges of murder, rape, and arson were so widespread that they were everyday and commonplace. Yet you had returned home from 13 months in Vietnam as a Marine Infantryman and had not done any of those things or seen any of those things, but now everyone you tell about your service thinks you did."
They don't have the experience so they can't know how we feel or even begin to understand why we're angry. These Kerry operatives - all of them - have no standing in this group of honorable men who are angry with a liar and a traitor. Note that they are accomplishing their purpose - contest all criticism, swamp the board (sparky has over 20% of the posts alone), and keep us who honestly believe in Kerry's lack of fitness for CIC arguing with them rather than furthering our cause by organizing and growing. As they will soon see, there are ways around their bull. Semper Fi and hang in there - Walt
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Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor. |
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: To All Those Who Question My Patriotism - |
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| ROTC DAD wrote: |
As for your personal attacks on my patriotism (here I exclude Me#1You#10 - thank you for understanding what the Constitution says) - I find it offensive and will admit that it stings to be so labeled. I won't lower the level of debate here any further with letting you know what I think, except to say perhaps if you had something to say, you wouldn't need to resort to personal attacks. |
Seems that some English comprehension classes might also be of help. I asked if you had served, because it is evident that you DO NOT understand the oath of commissioning, nor the conduct expected of a military officer. You find that insulting? I find it factual. And not an attack on your patriotism (unless of course, you feel less patriotic not having served). Not everyone can serve. Not everyone can "earn" those rights to speak up that you claim John Kerry earned.
Of course, Carpro has a good point. If John Kerry earned the right to say what he said through his service, then Carpro, Me#1You#10 and I have earned the right to express our opinion. Have you?
Your comments, with logic applied to them. Why don't you just admit that your comments were foolish?
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| sparky wrote: | ROTC Dad, you bring up some very important points.
Have any of you Kerry-haters petitioned the Department of Defense to change the rules you think so unfair or unjust?
Kerry isn't claiming he *enjoyed* Vietnam. He is claiming that he served bravely, risked his life, saved lives and left when the rules permitted him to leave.
If existing rules permit someone to "bugger out" those rules should be changed. Oddly enough, Kerry critics have had over 30 years to register their complaint with the system and only now seem to give a crap.
Sounds like medal-envy to me! |
Why don't you do a little research, Sparky, and find out if that rule is still in effect?
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 6:27 pm Post subject: Re: Again, just the post you want to see. |
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| ROTC DAD wrote: | | Among other things, you question whether or not I served as though by serving or not serving you have some greater or lesser insight and/or patriotic stature because of it. |
How can you possibly have the level of insight into the situation as someone who was over there and "in the ****?"
Doesn't mean to imply that you are less patriotic - only that you don't have the same basis for understanding as those who have been there.
| Quote: | | You also ignore that I said he fought for our right to say what we think, whether or not a person served or did not serve. |
You can say just about whatever you want.
But when it comes to questions regarding combat with an armed enemy, (which I have never seen, except in movies) I will defer to those who did their tour in that miserable place to tell me what was possible, plausible or probable over someone who wasn't there.
| Quote: | | Did Kerry commit murder for the Silver Star he was awarded. I don't know. Neither do you. Neither you nor I was there. You have simply made the assumption he did because it suits your purpose. |
We don't know.
But, from all the accounts that I've read, he beached his craft, left the boat to chase down a wounded man who had been manning a machine gun. He chased the now-unarmed man behind a hooch and delivered the "coup de grace."
Was it murder? Couldn't have been self-defense at that moment, because the unarmed machine-gunner had been hit with one of our 50's and was defenseless. A mercy-killing? Maybe.
Most of the people who were there and understood the area and the rules of engagement are rather disdainful of Kerry breaking the standing orders and ROE and shooting this wounded, unarmed man - and getting a medal for it.
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~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| sparky wrote: | | Sounds like medal-envy to me! |
And that probably proves better than anything else that you've said that you will stoop to absolutely anything to support your candidate.
It proves that you have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about.
"Medal envy." What sort of ridiculous talking points sheet did you get that one from. It obviously wasn't from a military person, because only a life-long civilian would buy that one. 
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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