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zinfella
Rear Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2004
Posts: 708
Location: Mesa, Az
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 Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:52 am Post subject: |
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| Bystander wrote: | | zinfella, yes, the Teamsters may provide you with a decent retirement. BUT--I'm acquainted with a retired Teamster of many years and we go 'round and 'round about unions. |
I didn't blow any horns for or against the Teamsters, re-read what I wrote. Everybody has a friend that's a truck driver, or a relative, or something, but until you do it yourself, you don't really know jack about it. That was what I meant.
I worked for large companies, perhaps larger than you did, and I can tell you that the union truck drivers have a much better job, with much better pay than 90% of the non union drivers. That's just a fact. I'm not saying that I'm 100% behind everything that unions do or say, but to say that they're all bad shows a lot ignorance on the part of those who have no personal knowledge. If you think that your company paid any of your benefits out of their pocket, then I have a bridge that I'd like to sell you. Those costs of doing business are passed on to the end user, just like that $1000 extra cost for the car that yopu mentioned. Auto workers, and all the rest of the workers receive benefits that are considered part of their salary, even if they don't see it on a check every payday. The same goes for the employer portion of Social Security, it's just part of the wage package that every employer has to allow for. If you aren't worth that package, watch how fast it shrivels, as it should.
I'm not jealous of what anyone else has, you included, but I'm a lot better off than some. You paint with a brush that's too broad.
That's all I have to say about it in this forum, as I think it's out of place here. But if folks are gonna throw rocks, I have a pretty good arm too.
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I B Squidly
Vice Admiral
Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 879
Location: Cactus Patch
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:49 am Post subject: |
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My father (1st Lt Coast Artillery) had an annual budget of 2 billion dollars in the early 70's for manufacturing and transportation. He liked the Teamsters. They would check the books and get an adjustment or shut down the wildcats. Other unions demonstrated less sensibility and were quite capable of rendering themselves economically unviable resulting in off-shore op's. It was cheaper to shut a new plant for foreign imports and a greater return for US stockholders.
My encounters with unions have been petty but instructive in conveying an ethic of protected lowered productivity for maximum cost. The worst was as an E4 with positional authority supervising GS9s. One was an illeterate, another an avowed Wobbly (Workers of the World) who deliberately or insensibly sabotagued work product. Firing a GS required 3 years documentation while military assignments were 2 years. Retiring senior officers were on the pad.
Off on a tear: It's my experience that major stateside military commands are are run by the Mob. For a fact I know this true of Huechuca and Great Lakes.
The Mob and and Union coherence is often revealed and just as often ignored.
Copronymus comes to mind. |
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tony54
PO2
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 369
Location: cleveland, ohio
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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When I originally posted this discussion, it was not meant to be a union bashing thing.
Unions serve their purpose fairly well; most big unions are little corrupt
at the top, as money is power and power corrupts.
My main reason for the posting was that all the unions donate millions to political campaigns, 95% to Democrats, and the membership has no say so, even though its their money being donated. |
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zinfella
Rear Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2004
Posts: 708
Location: Mesa, Az
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| tony54 wrote: | When I originally posted this discussion, it was not meant to be a union bashing thing.
Unions serve their purpose fairly well; most big unions are little corrupt
at the top, as money is power and power corrupts.
My main reason for the posting was that all the unions donate millions to political campaigns, 95% to Democrats, and the membership has no say so, even though its their money being donated. |
Indeed. Whenever the local political rep came into the Phoenix local and started telling everyone that they had to vote for John F-ing Kerry, one of the business agents would call me to set him straight. Being pretty much of an ornery old coot, I was not too easy on him, and let him know that we're not all sheep, following the flock. I am under no illusion that I changed his mind, but I did change some of the others listening on the speaker phone.
Unions are going to scratch the back of those that they think will scratch back. Truth be known, no administration since Johnson has scratched the Teamsters back. Kennedy nearly ruined them, and the rest have just ignored them. Not even Bubba Clinton did much for them beyond a lot of talk. The Teamsters are having a hard time coming to grips with not having an advocate in the admimnistration. If they were smart, they would have baked Dubya, who will open up the Anwar for oil drilling, making a lot of jobs for Teamsters. That will be good for the entire country, not just the unions. Another reason that all of the rank and file are no longer voting as told, is that the Democrats are playing to the fringe groups and pushung gun control, while most of the Teamster membership are gun owners. Most of 'em are family men also, and abortion is not something that they think should be as easy to get as a bus transfer.
IMO, the union that is really out of whack, is the teachers union, they are the most far left of the unions, equaling the trial law-yahs, and they are a roadblock to the education level that is found in a great many countries that are not as well off as the USA. Now that's a shame!
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zinfella
Rear Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2004
Posts: 708
Location: Mesa, Az
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| I B Squidly wrote: |
Firing a GS required 3 years documentation while military assignments were 2 years. Retiring senior officers were on the pad.
Off on a tear: It's my experience that major stateside military commands are are run by the Mob. For a fact I know this true of Huechuca and Great Lakes.
The Mob and and Union coherence is often revealed and just as often ignored.
Copronymus comes to mind. |
Corruption can flourish with dishonest people, and unions, the military, any large group, has a few bad apples in their barrel. If you went into the conference room at the Teamster local in Phoenix, you'd see a photo of Dave Beck on the wall. Beck was a Teamster big shot, during the heydey of the union, but he went to prison for corruption. Most of the membership nowadays has no clue who Dave Beck was. Beck was an old Jimmy Hoffa side kick, and we all know that he, like Hoffa, was under the thumb of the mob. Teddy Kennedy put the skids to Hoffa, as a part of going after the mob, but it's never mentioned that it was old man, and family patriarch, Joe Kennedy that was in bed with the mob to begin with. What a tangled web that was.
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Uisguex Jack
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 613
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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In a effort to keep this interesting and muddle up the water a bit I've two stories....
First off I once worked under Carl Bruggemyer http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3190/is_n28_v22/ai_6494878 One day this guy called an on the spot meeting of all upper lever employees one day, about fifty of us.
After a half hour of awkwardness as we all assembled the temperature shot up quickly. We were all locked in the room and individually grilled as to which one of us was secretly organizing for some union.
That was one of the wildest afternoons I've ever spent. I was grateful to learn there were Union organizers about but also a little put off that I might have been mistaken for one. They were not planning on giving the winner a Prize!
Now for the most under reported story of the Kerry Campaign, and never refuted by anyone.
John Kerry the Environmentalist: http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/2/25/125814.shtml
| Quote: | Greens Fret: Hoffa Says Kerry Vows to 'Drill Like Never Before'
Robert B. Bluey, CNSNews.com
Wednesday, Feb. 25, 2004
Teamsters union chief Jimmy Hoffa has confused environmentalists and free-market advocates after saying that Democrat front-runner John Kerry, if elected president, would "drill like never before" across the United States.
Hoffa made the comments Feb. 17 during a segment on "Hardball" with Chris Matthews. Matthews had asked Hoffa why the union chose to endorse the U.S. senator even though Kerry opposed drilling for oil in Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.
"Well, we talked about that," Hoffa responded. "He says, look, I am against ANWR, but I am going to put that pipeline in, and we're going to drill like never before."
The union supports drilling in ANWR and the creation of a natural-gas pipeline that could stretch from Alaska to Chicago. Neither plan draws support from Kerry's environmentalist base, however.
When Matthews pressed Hoffa for details on the promises Kerry made, the Teamsters president offered a vague response.
'Drill All Over'
"Well, they are going to drill all over, according to him," Hoffa said. "And he says, we're going to be drilling all over the United States. And he says that is going to create more jobs."
After the exit of Rep. Dick Gephardt of Missouri from the Democrats' presidential race, Kerry courted unions, including the Teamsters, to support his candidacy. He secured AFL-CIO's endorsement last week.
But Hoffa's comments have left Kerry's largest environmental backer confused about what the union chief meant by Kerry's intentions to "drill like never before."
Or Is It 'League of Democrat Voters'?
Betsy Loyless, vice president for policy and lobbying at League of Conservation Voters, said she wasn't sure what Hoffa was talking about. She suggested asking the union, but three calls made by CNSNews.com on Monday and Tuesday weren't returned.
"We think there can be a balance between protecting the environment and growing the economy," Loyless said. "John Kerry knows ... promoting renewable and clean energy sources makes good sense."
When it comes to drilling in areas besides ANWR, Loyless said it was the Bush administration that wanted to tap into public lands, not Kerry.
Attack Bush for Kerry's Promise
"This administration is making many of the wrong choices," she said. "This administration has said oil and gas drilling are the primary uses for public lands. We know that John Kerry disagrees that oil and gas drilling are primary functions for public lands."
And as for the natural-gas pipeline, Loyless said most environmental groups, including League of Conservation Voters, remained neutral. The plan was first authorized in 1976 and is expected to cost up to $20 billion. The most contentious issue is what route the pipeline would take from Alaska's Prudhoe Bay to the lower 48 states.
Kerry Evades Another Issue
When Kerry was asked about Hoffa's comments last Thursday by CNN anchor Judy Woodruff, he skirted the issue and instead talked about the pipeline.
"I think he ... I said exactly what my policy has been all my life. Which is I'm for the natural-gas pipeline. Absolutely. I voted for the natural-gas pipeline. I think it's important to build it. And so do most Americans," Kerry said.
"I'm also for the drilling in the 95 percent of the Alaska oil shelf that's up for leasing now," he added. "In fact, President Clinton put out the biggest lease in American history in that part of the shelf. I'm not for drilling in the Arctic Wildlife Refuge, and I haven't changed, and I won't change."
When Woodruff asked if there was a contradiction in that statement, Kerry replied, "Absolutely none whatsoever." She didn't ask him to clarify what Hoffa might have meant by "drilling all over the United States."
'What They Want to Hear'
Hoffa's interview caught the attention of free-market advocates at Competitive Enterprise Institute. Myron Ebell, director of global warming and international environmental policy, said it would be out of character for Kerry to make such a guarantee to Hoffa given his track record on environmental issues.
"If the Teamsters are concerned about jobs, the only way Hoffa could justify it is if he took Kerry's words to mean that he would start drilling in a lot of places that are off-limits," Ebell said. "But I don't believe Kerry would ever concede that."
The more interesting question, Ebell said, is what Kerry could possibly offer the Teamsters that President Bush hasn't already put on the table. During the 2000 presidential campaign, Bush unsuccessfully courted Hoffa in hopes of winning his endorsement.
"[The Bush administration] is in favor of the pipeline," Ebell said. "They're in favor of ANWR, and they're in favor of opening up large areas of the Rocky Mountains to further gas exploration."
It's typical of unions to throw their weight behind one candidate for purely partisan reasons, said Justin Hakes, assistant director of legal information at National Right to Work Foundation.
"Big labor feels threatened by the Bush administration," he said. "There's so much discontent with him on the left that once the Democratic candidate is selected, you're going to see a massive effort put forth."
Ebell added, "It may be the old Bill Clinton routine of telling each person you're talking to exactly what they want to hear, and hoping it never catches up to you." |
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zinfella
Rear Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2004
Posts: 708
Location: Mesa, Az
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Uisguex Jack wrote: | In a effort to keep this interesting and muddle up the water a bit I've two stories....
Ebell added, "It may be the old Bill Clinton routine of telling each person you're talking to exactly what they want to hear, and hoping it never catches up to you." |
[/quote]
That is EXACTLY what is going on today with the Democrats. No matter what one thinks of Dubya, if he tells you something, you can take it to the bank, whether you like it or not. The Dems are all about double talk and obfuscation. The Teamsters, no longer the largest labor union, are not catered to by the left. Even Dick Gephardt's dad was not a strong union man, even though he was once a Teamster out of necessity, for a relatively short time period in his life. That is supported by Dick's brother, who said as much during the Democratic primaries, to the chagrin of the would be candidate. Dick nearly had apoplexy when his brother said that his dad hated the Teamsters. Did that stop the Teamsters from backing Gephardt? NO! 
On an another note, my wife retired from Motorola, where the benefits were good, and they wanted to keep the union out. Now that she's retired, the promised retiree medical benefits have been sloughed off to a very dicey situation, and I, being 65, and thus on medicare, get no coverage to speak of. However, we are both covered by my Teamsters retiree medical coverage, regardless of age. Broken promises are common when there's no way to hold anyone's feet to the fire. Unions still serve the needs of a lot of people. And before anyone get's too excited, those retiree benefits for Teamsters are a negotiated part of the wage package, nobody is holding a gun to the head of the companies. Federal law also plays a major role in how those benefits are administered.
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Bystander
PO3
Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 271
Location: MI
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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zinfella, when I re-read my post, I see I didn't mention the 'other side.' It was not my intent to offend and if I did so, I apologize.
One of my complaints about some retired/active union members is most of them are dyed-in-the-wool democrats whose minds couldn't be opened with a wrench. You are the exception. The retired Teamster I refered to once refused to accept a package delivery from FedEx because their drivers are non-union. And it was something he had ordered! Makes sense, right? The company told him he'd have to make his purchase elsewhere because that's who they use for their shipments.
Of the several retired/active UAW members in my family, they all were backing GWB in the election. It irks them that their dues money was used to back Skerry.
I agree that bennies are part of the cost of doing business. A hundred years ago when I first became involved in Human Resources (called the Employment Department back then!), I pointed out to each prospective employee that when considering the salary offered, 26% should be added because of benefits. Since I made the choice to hang it up early 8 years ago, I don't know what the figure is presently.
Another complaint I have about some (not all) union members is they depend on that set pay scale and are (in)famous for the tag 'it's not my job.' I had to deal with that through the years and I wanted to slap them upside the head whenever it was used. Whenever another department needed assistance, if I was able to and didn't have pressing matters on my plate, I pitched in with no thought that it wasn't in my job description. I'd rather feel I earned my salary instead of having a set schedule that after 6 months I got 'x' number of dollars, after a year an additional 'x' number of dollars.
Hope I cleared up how I really feel. 
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highwayman
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 43
Location: oregon
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| msindependent wrote: | | No offense, but I'd clean toilets for a living rather than having to join a union. |
i'm with you on that, granted there was a time when unions were needed, but what are the function of the unions now? other then collecting dues from members and donating what was collected to liberals that the only goal is to destroy buisness or somebodies lifestyle they don't agree with... |
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zinfella
Rear Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2004
Posts: 708
Location: Mesa, Az
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Bystander wrote: |
Hope I cleared up how I really feel. |
It works for me. Many of us take a great deal of pride in our work, in spite of what others may do, or say. 
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blue9t3
Admiral
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 1246
Location: oregon
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Bystander"]zinfella, when I re-read my post, I see I didn't mention the 'other side.' It was not my intent to offend and if I did so, I apologize.
One of my complaints about some retired/active union members is most of them are dyed-in-the-wool democrats whose minds couldn't be opened with a wrench. Another complaint I have about some (not all) union members is they depend on that set pay scale and are (in)famous for the tag 'it's not my job.' I had to deal with that through the years and I wanted to slap them upside the head whenever it was used.
Hope I cleared up how I really feel. [/quote]
I think your hanging with the wrong crowd. In construction lazy a**es get sent home until thier unemployment runs out. I never depended on any pay scale, if my skills werent a bargain I was let go. Many times I was paid ten or twenty percent above scale, and that wasnt cleaning nobodys toilet. I know some unions are a joke but you should mention that before you lump them together.
As for the "head slappin" remark, all I can say is that you must be 10 feet tall and bullit proof!
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wally626
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 85
Location: Yorktown
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| tony54 wrote: |
.... And even New Years day, 2004 AD, What do they think AD stand for? After Descention of whom? Jesus?
The whole planet bases their days and date on a continuation and anniversary of Jesus rising from death and ascending into Heaven.
Are they going to stop using the date and year as we have been doing for 2004 years?
That's part of all churches preachings. |
Just a nitpick but AD is an abbreviation for the Latin phrase [in] anno Domini which translates to in the year of our Lord. And refers to the number of years after His birth not the ressurection. Or at least the year the medieval scholars thought He was born. |
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Bystander
PO3
Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 271
Location: MI
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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blue, yeah, your last comment, you brought up another--uh--interesting facet. Been there, done that.
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No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
..................................Eleanor Roosevelt |
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msindependent
Vice Admiral
Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 891
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Gosh darn it highwayman, I was just looking over my shoulder for the back door to make a quick get away (just kidding). This isn't the first time my big mouth has gotten me in trouble. I just know that I get my job done faster when I don't have to work with union members. I also don't like the concept that you have to join and that they support politics. I'm glad that unions have helped some of you guys, that's what they are for. Ignore my previous statement that lumped everyone together and continue on. |
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blue9t3
Admiral
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 1246
Location: oregon
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="msindependent"]Gosh darn it highwayman, I was just looking over my shoulder for the back door to make a quick get away (just kidding). This isn't the first time my big mouth has gotten me in trouble. I just know that I get my job done faster when I don't have to work with union members. I also don't like the concept that you have to join and that they support politics. I'm glad that unions have helped some of you guys, that's what they are for. Ignore my previous statement that lumped everyone together and continue on.[/quote]
 OK----I feel much better now!--------now I think I'll go die of something else!
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