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I wonder what veterans of previous wars have to say about the current shortage of armor for military vehicles in Iraq.

BTW, I'm a veteran of the Vietnam War, and I know what I'm thinking about it.

I only have two Purple Hearts.............if I'd only known. LOL.

Sgt-Keeper · Seaman Apprentice Joined: 02 Jul 2004 Posts: 96

The Humvees were never designed for armor. The process of up-armoring this vehicle is similar to having GM recall every pick-up truck so it can be retrofitted as a mini-van. The point is, we're doing just that. It's not just adding armor. Springs & shocks must be retrofitted, engines retuned and a host of other issues addressed. Instead of complaining about not having enough armored humvees, we should be celebrating the normal American ingenuity to be able to retrofit 16,000 vehicles, in a combat zone, in 9 months!
We didn't have that stuff in Nam because we didn't have any use for it. That soldier who asked Rummy the question should have a letter in his jacket for that stupid remark. He was prompted by a reporter and should have enough brains not to consort with trash, let alone allow the reporter to put words in his mouth. And, WHF is that reporter doing there now? The reporters were given instructions not to ask any questions. So he recruits a dufus to do it for him. Rummy should have had his credentials pulled and extracted from the unit like a bad tooth. Evil or Very Mad

_________________
Fix the problem, not the blame.
USMC E5 Nam vet 65-66

PhantomSgt · Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 8:07 pm Post subject:

This what I posted on another topic here and someone thought it was serious:

President Bush today sent a supplemental appropriation request to Congress for the purchase of 300,000 M-1 tanks. A White House spokesman said; "It is the President's hope that every soldier has his own personal M-1 Tank for protection". He went on to say; "The multi trillion dollar request will only add slightly to the National debt".
Rolling Eyes

Are these the same Humvees we used in the 1st Gulf War? I never heard any complaints then.

Obviously we can't issue M-1s to every troop in harms way, so we do the best we can. Adaptability is what America does and has done in every war we have fought. When we have a hole we fill it, when we have a new tactic used against us we adapt to overcome it and when it is all over, we have kicked butt and won in spite of the bile spewed by the naysayers at home; We need to honor those who fought the fight.
_________________
Retired AF E-8

Independent that leans right of center.

Arty Guy · Seaman Joined: 20 Aug 2004 Posts: 190

Every time the US has gone to war there have always been equipment issues. This is not to excuse the weapons procurement bureacracy, but design and procurement decisions made years in advance of the actual conflict have to be based on the best estimate of the future need. Nobody's crystal ball is perfect. Of course the MSM treats this as a scandal. It would be a scandal if the problem was not being addressed, but DOD is working on it. Perhaps the retrofit process can be accelerated. I don't know if it can be done any faster, but it should not be a surprise that there are equipment deficiencies.

As a concrete example from Viet Nam, shortly after our unit deployed there in May of 1967, the artillery units were issued the first portable digital computers to compute firing data. I had seen these at Ft. Sill four years earlier when they were still being developed. The only thing that had not been foreseen during development and testing was the intensity with which the operators would pound the key boards to enter data. The original keyboards failed after a short period of combat usage. The army came out with a modification kit which was simply a tougher keyboard. The kits were installed and there were no more keyboard problems. A scandal? Hardly. Just a humorous episode.

mtboone · Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:21 pm Post subject:

I feel we need to supply them the best and get them up to speed as soon as possible. But, that doesn't mean they should not continue with their mission and deployment.

When we went up rivers, the noise of the engines would alert evey one In Country for miles and Swift boats armour was 1/4 inch aluminum, if you can call that armour. We wore flack jackets from the Korean War or older that many men quit wearing because they would not stop any type of round and if you fell over the side you would sink, while Helo pilots had the ceramic types that were much better. Some branch of the service will always get slighted and being part of the Navy, the Marines probably got shafted at every turn.

It is the nature for those in the military to gripe and these men are just doing the age old History of b*tch*ing.
_________________
Terry Boone PCF 90
Qui Nhon 68-69

Arty Guy · Seaman Joined: 20 Aug 2004 Posts: 190

This link takes you to a piece in the Wall Street Journal about the armor problem that is very interesting. It does not surprise me that the procurement bureacracy is part of the problem. Just like they screwed up the initial deployment of the M-16 in VN.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/bminiter/?id=110006024

BuffaloJack · Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 12:38 pm Post subject:

Besides the inadequacy of armor. Those that need it the most will probably wait the longest for it, with the military bureaucrats getting theirs first and the guys out in the field on a waiting list.

I remember when I was in Vietnam, I got issued a vest with that crap with the metal or ceramic plates sewn into what seamed like large pleats. It wasn't until my 10th or 11th month in country that the supply boys came around and finally replaced them with the Kevlar vests. As I recall the Kevlar armor was lighter, more flexible and easier to maneuver in than that junk with the hard heavy plating; it's only drawback was that it was like wearing a winter coat in the tropics. I never really blamed the military, they supplied us with the best they had, it's just that it takes time to actually manufacture and they couldn't get it any faster.
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Swift Boats - Qui Nhon (12/69-4/70), Cat Lo (4/70-5/70), Vung Tau (5/70-12/71)

four-niner delta · Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:23 pm Post subject:

I am Pro-Bush and I believe in what he is trying to do in Iraq. But Rumfeld and Wolfowicz are being REACTIVE in this war, and not PROACTIVE. The fight getting to Baghdad was magnificent, but the effort trying to pacify has been lacking in planning. I have a son in Iraq right now, A ground-pounder, straight-leg infantry- exactly like I was in Vietnam. He has been extended twice in the last 2 months and he is expecting another extension after the election. That is how thin the troops are spread over there. He fought in Najaf last August and the unit was told they were going back to redeploy to the U.S. Then they were sent into Fallujah and they were told again they would go back to Baghdad to redeploy to the U.S. These troops are being jerked around. When we were told that the 1st Armored would be extended earlier this year after a one year deployment, they were extended 60 days to help pacify the areas that new troops were coming into. We were told by Rumsfeld that this was a one-time extension-that no troops would be extended over 1 year. This is MY problem with the way this is being done!

The company that does the retrofit and builds the NEW humvees is Armored Holdings-I believe they are based in Indiana. They were told by the administration to build ONLY 400 per month, that's what they had the funds for. Armored Holdings said last week that they have the capacity to build 600 per month. The administration told us we are getting these vehicles in country as fast as is humanly possible-NOT TRUE! My son just missed getting it in April of this year by a sniper in Fallujah- an AK47 through the door and ripped the seat cover at his back. This was NOT an armored humvee and he is in a unit that is on missions everyday, not a unit in the Green Zone or a safe area! I have the shirt in my closet now, ripped by the round. I don't know how he missed being killed. Thank God- and you know this happens everyday throughout the country

The first Gulf War was fought with 600,000 troops, not 150,000. Those troops got within 300 miles of Baghdad, not in the ENTIRE country. The need for armor humvees was not needed in the war. They would have needed them if we had gone into Baghdad. I have posted about this problem in another post on this. This insurgency has been fought since August and September of 2003 and is increasing in ferocity with each day. Go to globalsecurity.org and you can see the daily tally!

We need a new defense secretary and get overwhelming troop strength in country with EVERY bit of armor we can get and ALL the latest technology to back our troops. Some of this may be funding by congress or the administration needs to make an order ( a war order) to get these things done and quite BSing everybody.

Right now, Rummy says the same things that McNamara said during Veitnam. Finally I few years ago, McNamara said he was wrong. I was able to vent to him over the phone on Larry King. I could'nt take anymore of his BS. I have TOO many buddies on the wall.

Just last week, Iran was doing war games on their border with Iraq. Do you really believe that was coincidental? If we are having trouble meeting troop strength now by extension, how are we going to go after Iran if they start to get twitchy? Most every general or colonel that is a pundit on FOX says we need more troops. We need a dense sec. that will get the troops, the armor and whatever the hell else they need to fight this AND FINISH IT.

I have ranted long enough. I guess I am a frustrated father, who sees the same problems as I did in 1966-67.
_________________
Gary Armitstead
Burbank, CA
U.S. Army Vietnam 1966-67 Mekong Delta
Mobile Riverine Force
A Co. 3/60 9th INF DIV

carpro · Admin Joined: 10 May 2004 Posts: 1176 Location: Texas

They need and should have the best protection that is available. However, I know the humvee was really a replacement for the venerable old jeep we are all so fond of .

That baby really had a lot of armor, didn't it guys?

The point is . You use what you have and improve it as fast as possible, but you still accomplish your mission, armored humvee or not.

The media is probably doing more complaining than the troops are. Keep things stirred up. That's there motto.
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"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service."

four-niner delta · Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:04 pm Post subject:

My point is that Rumsfeld wants to fight this war on the "cheap". He has had 18 months to get the equipment the troops need. The situation HAS NOT changed in 18 months. This is not a media thing, I am voicing an opinion as a father who hears this from a soldier all the time. He is not complaining and he does his job-they all do. BUT they do have the right to ask the dense secretary a proper question AND not get an arrogant answer back. Period.
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Gary Armitstead
Burbank, CA
U.S. Army Vietnam 1966-67 Mekong Delta
Mobile Riverine Force
A Co. 3/60 9th INF DIV

carpro · Admin Joined: 10 May 2004 Posts: 1176 Location: Texas

lthrneck · Lieutenant Joined: 02 Sep 2004 Posts: 214

I for one have a hard time accepting shortages and bad equipment. I almost died because of a piece of crap rifle they gave us in Vietnam, many did die it's unforgivable.

Here's a good read if anyone is intrested in the war along the DMZ and how badly the M16 performed.

"Con Thien - Hill of Angels" James P. Coan
_________________
"Old Breed, New Breed, There's not a DAMM bit of
difference so long as it's the MARINE Breed"
- Lt. Gen Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller

Semper fi
uuurah
Carry On!!

carpro · Admin Joined: 10 May 2004 Posts: 1176 Location: Texas

lthrneck · Lieutenant Joined: 02 Sep 2004 Posts: 214

I got to fire the SAW and M16 down at 29 Stumps last year. They have definetly fixed the problems with the M16. When we were in country after many Marines died they recalled all the ammo and gave us a new bolt and buffer which didn't entirely fix the jamming problem but it did fix the problem of leaving the casing in the barrel. (that was the most serious of the problems and to top it off they only gave us one cleaning kit for every 3 rifles). During a fire fight we were tossing the cleaning rod to each other to eject the jammed casing. I would of shot McNamara if I would of seen him at that time.
_________________
"Old Breed, New Breed, There's not a DAMM bit of
difference so long as it's the MARINE Breed"
- Lt. Gen Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller

Semper fi
uuurah
Carry On!!

carpro · Admin Joined: 10 May 2004 Posts: 1176 Location: Texas

Agreed.

My first patrol and firefight, an M16 went to single shot-manual eject, single shot and so on. Fortunately, I was the team grenadier and also carried an M16, which I gave to the other Marine. Gas tube was stopped up, nothing to clean it with, the hole was so small.

When I became a team leader and had my choice of weapons, I carried a 12 Guage pump. That sucker never jammed!! Very Happy

_________________
"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service."