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tony54
PO2
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 369
Location: cleveland, ohio
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 Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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Even if he had the right to remove artificial life support,
does he and his attorney have the right to not allow water to be given
orally? Oral hydration is natural, not artificial life support.
Also, do you think he has the right to order cremation immidiately after death to a practicing Catholic?
And the judge approves it?
Give me a break, this is "Judicial Murder" |
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Fort Campbell
Vice Admiral
Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 896
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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Balloon Artist , you have made the same points I would have made.
Unfortunately most of the previous posters are posting based upon emotions and upon info that they have been fed by the MSM. I had thought that during the last Presidential election we here at Swiftvets had learned that the info provided by the MSM is not reliable. I am dismayed to see that it is being held as accurrate and reliable in this case.
It is a right in this country to refuse any medical treatment that we do not chose to take. Many people diagnosed with terminal cancer refuse to take the chemotherapy. We also have the right to refuse ventilators and feeding tubes. When a person is rendered unable to breathe on their own or to swallow liquids or food then ventilators and feeding tubes are considered by law to be medical treatments. We can refuse them. That is each individual's right based on the Constitution. In a case where the person is unable to communicate his/her wishes then the burden of seeing that that person's wishes falls by law to the next of kin. In this case as there has been no divorce Terri's next of kin is her husband, Michael. I will not condone his living with another woman while married to Terri, but that does not alter the legalities of this case. You must refrain from thinking about this case on an emotional level and deal with the law as it exists at this time. That is what the Judges in the Federal Courts are having to do. We are a nation of Laws and they must be abided by. If you do not agree with the current laws then become an advocate to have them changed.
If nothing else I hope that this case has made it clear to everyone that each of us must have a Living Will and a Medical Power of Attorney that specifies our exact wishes if we should be unable to convey them to the doctors. If you do not have one then get one. If Terri had had one then all of this would never have occurred.
Reach outside the MSM to the Bloggers for info on Terri Schiavo as we did during the run up to the Presidential Election. I found this via that method this morning.
A statement from an R.N. who was called in to evaluate Terri after complaints from her family:
I was a health care surveyor for the State of Florida Agency for Health Care Administration, when I investigated allegations that stemmed from Teri's family one year ago. I will only comment on what already is public record anyway. They had posted these allegations on a website and urged the public to call in complaints to the State regarding the health care that Teri was receiving at the facility that is/was caring for her. This occured at the same time that the facility found what appeared to be needle marks on Teri's arm...these suspicious marks were found immediately after Teri's parents had visited her. Empty needle caps were also found in her bedclothes. When the needle marks on Teri's arm were found a year ago, immediately after a visit by her parents...the State was deluged with complaints regarding her care that was prompted by her family via a website...that her teeth were falling out of her mouth (not true), that she was unwashed (not true), that she had pressure sores from not being repositioned (her skin was pristine), that she was being denied the right of having visitors (not true...her family may visit, outsiders may not and there are private duty police officers guarding her door 24/7), that she was not allowed gifts delivered (true...people do crazy things like plant cameras in teddy bears).
Were these allegations made to deflect from the family's possible involvement with the needle marks? Maybe. It seems to be a pattern...every time the courts side with Michael's efforts and Teri's wishes, the old allegations resurface to be investigated once again.
Quote :
"We are confident when someone from the outside does see how Terri has been treated, they will see she has been mistreated all these years," Davis said.
I saw how Teri has been cared for with my own eyes...the care she has received for 15 years has been outstanding...it's evident.
Most people do not get to visit Teri. There are police officers guarding her room 24/7. No flowers, packages, or gifts are allowed to be delivered to her. I understand and agree with Michael Schiavo's rationale for this.
We were just discussing this case the other day. I said it then, and I will say it now. I have never seen a woman that receives the care and attention that Teri does...she is well cared for. I poured through the medical record. Everything that could be done to see her improve has been done...and then some. It is my opinion, and only my opinion, that she will remain as she is for the rest of her life...if you want to call it a life. The video clips they show on TV are misleading. She does not respond. She only breathes.
I don't feel that I have the right to say what is best for Teri Schiavo, nor does Governor Bush, in my opinion. Michael Schiavo is a health care professional. It seems natural to me that he and Teri had discussed their wishes regarding life support, etc. We in the medical field usually do, and most of us are realistic enough to choose to decline to be kept alive by artificial means. That is my wish, and everyone who knows me is aware of it.
I can empathisize with The Schindler's, Teri's family. They do not want to see their daughter gone...but really, she already is. They are in denial of their daughter's prognosis and want to blame anyone and anything that intrudes on their fantasy. They alleged Michael abused their daughter during the marriage...this was investigated by the State of Florida and found to be fabricated and untrue. They alleged he wanted her dead for the insurance money...there is NO money and what there might have been has more than been spent on attorneys and Teri's care. It seems obvious to me that he is fighting for Teri's wishes...or he could have walked away a long time ago.
There will be no happy outcome in this case, no matter which way the decision goes, but when all is said and done, Teri's life ended fifteen years ago.
Diana Lynn, R.N. Florida, USA
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here is also a very informative Blog dealing with the Legalities of this case:
http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html |
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Rdtf
CNO
Joined: 13 May 2004
Posts: 2209
Location: BUSHville
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Fort Campbell"] | Quote: | Balloon Artist , you have made the same points I would have made.
Unfortunately most of the previous posters are posting based upon emotions and upon info that they have been fed by the MSM. I had thought that during the last Presidential election we here at Swiftvets had learned that the info provided by the MSM is not reliable. I am dismayed to see that it is being held as accurrate and reliable in this case. |
With all due respect, I don't agree with your observation. If you have been reading through the posts you would see that our views are based on our own research into the facts that the MSM is not reporting. |
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AMOS
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 558
Location: IOWA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:26 pm Post subject: Nobody |
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I don't really give a flying crap what anyone says. No one should be starved to death in this country. Thousands of Americans fought and died in WW II againt the Nazis to end this sort of barbaric behavior. George should tell brother Jeb to get his head out of that Florida sand and order the National Guard to raid that Commie hospice and take Terri to a hospital.
NOBODY desrves to have a guardian whose attempt to strangle them actuially caused the oxygen shortage that caused the brain damage in the first place. NOBODY deserves a guardian that wants them dead so they can't tell what really happened to them.
If Florida wants to secede from the Union and form a confederacy with Cuba, that's fine. They should at least allow the innocent residents to escape, unlike Nazi Germany. History is repeating itself right here in the USA.
I have to feel sorry for my keyboard. |
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LewWaters
Admin
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | but when all is said and done, Teri's life ended fifteen years ago. |
What an insensitive and eloquent manner to justify starving a woman to death, one who was successfully responding to rehabilitative therapy, prior to the LEGAL next of kin receiving 1.3 million dollars for her care.
By all means, let's protect our law and turn a blind eye to human torment and suffering. Let's repeat history and become calloused to what is going on around us, after all, it isn't happening to us;
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
Pastor Martin Niemöller
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Clark County Conservative |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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Just wondering if Diana Lynn RN is the head nurse with whom Michael Schiavo appeared "very, very close to" during the time in which Terri's medical records were expunged to remove all traces of documentation of her attempts at speech, communication, movement and eating?
I don't know. I do know that Michael Schiavo has managed to line some people up on his side that have even gone so far as to testify in court that they suddenly remembered that Terri had said that she would not want to be on life support if she was a vegetable. (Not that that matters - on the feeding tube, she is neither on life support NOR a vegetable.)
He seems to be quite the persuasive and charismatic fellow when he isn't bellowing, "Isn't that b**ch dead, yet?" or screaming at nursing assistants who are caught providing range-of-motion exercise or ice chips to his "wife."
Persuasive and tearful enough to talk a jury into awarding malpractice damages to him for the rehabilitation of Terri, and then immediately thereafter placing a DNR on her, removing all forms of therapy beyond palliative care (and even some of those) and even refusing to allow her to be treated for infection.
Persuasive enough that several of the nurses were in complete compliance with him and one appeared to be carrying on an affair with him.
Yep, a real charmer. So, is Diana Lynn one of those that he schnookered to the point that she is willing to lie under oath? Or are all those other doctors and care-givers the ones who are lying about her ability to swallow, communicate, laugh, cry, move on command, etc? Somehow, seeing the videos with my own eyes, I'm not inclined to believe that those who are on Terri's side are the ones who are lying.
Fort Campbell, I don't mean to sound hostile toward you.
I am frustrated and heartbroken and extremely hostile toward a system which would allow a sentient and conscious human being to be ordered starved to death. And now they're going to give her morphine so that she isn't aware of the pain of starvation and dehydration, depriving her parents of what few cognitive moments they may have had with her, as well.
We don't do that to convicted murderers - why would we allow such a treatment of an innocent woman?
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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Rdtf
CNO
Joined: 13 May 2004
Posts: 2209
Location: BUSHville
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:57 pm Post subject: 2-1 Vote - Appeals panel refuses to order Schiavo feeding |
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http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/23/schiavo/index.html
| Quote: | Appeals panel refuses to order Schiavo feeding
Parents had sought reversal of lower court ruling
Wednesday, March 23, 2005 Posted: 9:44 AM EST (1444 GMT)
ATLANTA, Georgia (CNN) -- By a 2-1 vote, a three-judge panel of the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals declined early Wednesday to order the reinsertion of Terri Schiavo's feeding tube.
A lawyer for the parents of the brain-damaged woman said they would continue their fight, The Associated Press reported.
Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, had filed with the appeals court Tuesday, after U.S. District Court Judge James Whittemore in Tampa, Florida, decided he would not grant a temporary restraining order that would allow reinstatement of the tube.
The tube, which was removed last week, had been providing the 41-year-old woman with water and nutrients since 1990. She is being cared for at a Florida hospice.
"The Schindlers will be filing an appropriate appeal to save their daughter's life," Rex Sparklin, an attorney with the law firm representing the parents, told the AP.
In issuing their majority opinion, 11th Circuit Judges Ed Carnes and Frank Hull said:
"We agree that the plaintiffs have failed to demonstrate a substantial case on the merits of any of their claims. We also conclude that the district court's carefully thought-out decision to deny temporary relief in these circumstances is not an abuse of discretion."
Judge Charles Wilson, who said he "strongly dissented" from the majority opinion, said refusing the parents' appeal "frustrates Congress' intent, which is to maintain the status quo by keeping Theresa Schiavo alive until the federal courts have a new and adequate opportunity to consider the constitutional issues raised by plaintiffs."
Schiavo's feeding tube was removed Friday on the order of Pinellas Circuit Judge George Greer, a Florida judge who ruled that he had no jurisdiction in the case. He said judicial doctrine bars losing parties from using federal courts to appeal state court decisions.
Both sides in the case -- the Schindlers, and Schiavo's husband, Michael -- filed documents Tuesday with the appellate court in Atlanta, Georgia.
Courts have consistently ruled that Terri Schiavo's husband, who wants her tube removed, is her legal guardian and has the legal right to make decisions about her treatment. The Schindlers insist that she continue to be fed.
Attorney George Felos told reporters that Michael Schiavo is by his wife's side at a Tampa, Florida, hospice, saying, "That's where he'll remain until she dies."
President Bush has expressed support for the Schindlers' fight, signing the law that allows the case to be reviewed by federal courts. (Full story)
White House press secretary Scott McClellan said the administration hoped the Schindlers find relief in the appeals process. (Full story)
The Justice Department filed documents in the appeals court late Tuesday supporting the Schindlers' effort to have the feeding tube reinserted while the legal battle plays out.
"Unless preliminary relief is immediately issued, there will be significant and irreversible injury: Theresa Schiavo will die," the document declared.
Reached in Tallahassee, Florida, Randall Terry, an anti-abortion activist and spokesman for the Schindlers, said the parents were "devastated" by the appeals panel's ruling.
Terry said he is in Tallahassee trying to convince state senators to vote for a bill that would reinsert the feeding tube.
Schindlers 'shocked'
In denying the request for a temporary restraining order, Whittemore on Tuesday wrote that Schiavo's parents didn't have a "substantial likelihood of success" on the merits of their arguments.
"This court concludes that Theresa Schiavo's life and liberty interests were adequately protected by the extensive process provided in the state courts," the judge wrote.
Bobby Schindler, Terri Schiavo's brother, said his family was "just shocked" at the decision.
"I don't understand how the judge can predetermine our success," he said, adding that his family remained hopeful.
Schindler spokesman Gary McCullough called the decision "extremely cruel."
"Here's a woman whose life is hanging. She's being slowly starved," he said.
Howard Simon, the executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Florida, defended the decision.
"What Judge Whittemore did in his decision was to defend the 'culture of freedom' that each of us has to exercise control over our lives, and the circumstances of our own death," he said in a written statement.
Woman's wishes debated
Michael Schiavo insists that his wife would never want to continue to live in her condition -- what Florida courts have deemed a persistent vegetative state.
People in such a condition cannot think, speak or respond to commands and are not aware of their surroundings.
Terri Schiavo collapsed in her home in 1990, suffering from heart failure that led to severe brain damage. Michael Schiavo said his wife suffered from bulimia that resulted in a potassium deficiency, triggering the heart failure.
The Schindlers said because of the absence of a living will, or written document, clearly spelling out her wishes, their daughter's due process rights have been violated. They believe her Roman Catholic faith would prevent her from wanting to die this way.
They also contend that their daughter's condition could improve with treatment.
CNN's Matt Smith, Bob Franken and Ninette Sosa contributed to this report.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright 2005 CNN. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. Associated Press contributed to this report. |
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Rdtf
CNO
Joined: 13 May 2004
Posts: 2209
Location: BUSHville
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=/ForeignBureaus/archive/200503/FOR20050323e.html
| Quote: | Terri Schiavo Would Not Be Starved in Israel
By Julie Stahl
CNSNews.com Jerusalem Bureau Chief
March 23, 2005
Jerusalem (CNSNews.com) - Terri Schiavo probably would not be disconnected from her feeding tube if she lived in Israel, experts here said.
A bill allowing "passive euthanasia" -- the removal of life support -- is currently under debate in the Israeli Knesset. In the first of three readings, the bill passed overwhelmingly.
But experts here noted that the bill would not affect Schiavo's case.
The pending "Terminal Patient Bill" would allow the removal of life support if the patient is terminally ill and expected to die within six months; is experiencing "great suffering"; and has "clearly requested not to be kept alive under the above circumstances."
Schiavo is not terminally ill and she did not leave any clear request regarding the termination of treatment.
"It's a very difficult case," said Professor Michel Revel, chairman of the newly created Bio-Ethics Council of Israel.
He said Schiavo would not be classified as terminally ill but would fall into the category of "somebody who is incapable or communicating with the outside world," Revel said in a telephone interview.
Nevertheless, he said, it is possible that after 15 years in a coma a court might decide in favor of a legal representative's request to disconnect life support.
The pending Israeli law is based on the principle that there can be no "active action taken to end the life of a person," Revel said. There is a very strict protocol of tests that must be administered to determine if a person is "brain dead," he said.
The Israeli law is based on Jewish law, which forbids helping someone die; but says if death is inevitable, prolonging life is not allowed.
An editorial in the Jerusalem Post on Wednesday also noted that Schiavo's case doesn't fall within the criteria laid down by the Israeli law and that the outcome here would likely have been very different.
"It is indeed hard to imagine an Israeli court ruling like the one in Florida in a case such as Schiavo's," the paper said.
"True, preserving life can sometimes risk prolonging suffering in a way that a patient would not choose. But our judicial system is right to be wary of an even greater danger, that of granting license for the elimination of incapacitated people, especially on the say-so of people who can hardly be trusted to have the patients' best interests at heart...
Avraham Ravitz, who belongs to a religious Knesset faction, supports a "passive euthanasia" law.
"It is very necessary [to have a law]. Without a law every doctor could make a decision [and] a judge is making decisions not based on [anything but] his personal feelings," Ravitz said in a telephone interview.
There have been several cases in Israel where terminally ill patients brought their cases before civil courts demanding the right to die.
But Ravitz said that the Israeli law would protect doctors.
Family members that wanted to dispose of relatives they thought were too bothersome would not be allowed to do so, nor would doctors be allowed to make a final choice for death if family members wanted to keep a relative alive. |
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AMOS
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 558
Location: IOWA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:05 pm Post subject: Lee Greenwood |
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| Lee Greenwood's song, "I'm Proud To Be An American", doesn't move me like it once did, thanks to the Nazi-commies. |
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Tom Poole
Vice Admiral
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 914
Location: America
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| Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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| AMOS wrote: | | ..."I'm Proud To Be An American", doesn't move me like it once did... |
I hear you and agree with your feeling from the song. But I would argue that if the lib/com/soc/progressives split the country or take it over, it won't be America anymore. If the ACLU, now dominated by radical muslims splits the country, again, it won't be America anymore. Technically, we're in the US and the term America technically doesn't mean the US. However it strongly connotes freedom and justice. That cannot be changed. America always will be America.
_________________
'58 Airedale HMR(L)-261 VMO-2 |
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The Balloon Artist
PO3
Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 262
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| The Balloon Artist wrote: | I don't know how many of these type cases I have been involved with as a professional. I assist people with Living Wills and Do Not Recesitate Orders.
The cases usually involve stroke that causes the patient to lose the ability to swallow.
This stoke is usually so severe that without the introduction of a feeding tube that death occurs within 4-7 days. In these cases the patient does not experience hunger as that portion of the brain has been affected as well. In their last days the patient is profided with hydration and medication to keep them comfortable. Death is not the result of starvation but the result of the stroke.
I have had other cases that feeding tubes were inserted and the patient maintained or went into a gradual decline lasting several years. In all cases when tube was removed or came out on its own, (it can happen). and the family elected not to reinsert. Death occured with 4-7 days. Did they strave to death? No the disease process was allowed to complete its course.
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That this is taking so long furthers the supposition that this is merely elective euthanasia.
I find it ironic the press reports her as "persistent vegetative state" which is a subjective term opposed to "brain dead" which she is not nor is it subjective. The press has never been forced to define this persistent vegetative state. Terri is starving to death opposed to allowing disease/trauma to take its course.
_________________
What about John Kerry's four months in Vietnam qualify him to be president?
Al Gore was there for five. |
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Barbie2004
Commander
Joined: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 338
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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Could someone please tell me where it is in the U.S. Constitution that we have a "Right to Die"???
How did we get from a clearly written "Right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. . ." to a "Right to Die".
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BuffaloJack
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 1637
Location: Buffalo, New York
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Barbie2004 wrote: | Could someone please tell me where it is in the U.S. Constitution that we have a "Right to Die"???
How did we get from a clearly written "Right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. . ." to a "Right to Die".
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The liberals will never settle for "Right to Die"; they would slip in a "Duty to Die" clause if given half a chance. |
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Barbie2004
Commander
Joined: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 338
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Could someone please tell me where it is in the U.S. Constitution that we have a "Right to Die"??? |
| Quote: | | The liberals will never settle for "Right to Die"; they would slip in a "Duty to Die" clause if given half a chance. |
It's already happening. It's called a "living will."
If you sign one, and mine will be called a "Right to Live Will", be extremely cautious about its language.
Just before Michael filed to have Terri removed from her feeding tube, Felos got the law changed to where extraordinary means to include a feeding tube and that a "right to die" can be expressed orally.
All those retirees in Florida better be careful.
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tony54
PO2
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 369
Location: cleveland, ohio
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| Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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Even if at that young age Terri had a living will, unless she would have given a copy to her parents, the results would have been the same.
I'm certain.
The husband and attorney want her dead, period! |
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