SwiftVets.com

[waltjones]

Like I said, they are ALL phonies until THEY PROVE WHAT THEY SAID!!!

Not one ever has, Nolan, and you know it!
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Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor.

[carpro]

[waltjones]

Yeah, he's never explained this Iwo memorial mockery by Kerry and his beloved VVAW, either. How 'bout it, Nolan?


_________________
Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor.

[Navy_Navy_Navy]

Right on, carpro.

[LewWaters]

[KeithNolan]

TO LEWWATERS: yes, the Burkett book exposes (as you note) Chuck Onan, Michael Schneider, Terry Whitmore, Garry Gianninoto, and Michael Harbert as having either been fakes or having given false testimony. Problem is they gave false testimony in Mark Baker's disreputable book CONVERSATIONS WITH AMERICANS.

None of these guys gave testimony in Detroit in 1971 under the auspices of the VVAW. In fact, that other fake Al Hubbard didn't testify in Detroit, either.

Let's also remember that Burkett estimated that fully seventy-percent of the VVAW members who participated in Operation Dewey Canyon III in 1971 were also fake veterans. Burkett doesn't offer one shred of evidence to back up this most damning charge. If such evidence existed, I'm sure the Nixon administration (which was working feverishly to undermine the VVAW, digging up the military records of its members and infiltrating its ranks with informers) would have spilled the beans on all the so-called fake veterans back in 1971.

Anyway, if I understand you guys, you really can't name a single fake veteran who gave testimony in Detroit. Approximately 130 veterans testified in Detroit. I'm sure one or two of them were fakes. Who were they? And how do one or two fakes undermine the credibility of every other veteran who was in Detroit? (Are there any veterans organizations on either side of the political divide that don't have a few fakes in their ranks?)

Also, what exactly were the veterans in Detroit lying about? Even Lewy (who Burkett uses to back up his claim that the VVAW was loaded with frauds) writes that all the war crimes described in Detroit mirrored war crimes that had been documented by the court-martial record.

I'll add that many veterans and journalists have described the exact same kind of incidents in their memoirs. And I've heard the same kind of stories dozens of times over from veterans who would never have dreamed of joining the VVAW.

Regarding the CID and NIS, and their inability to "prove" the testimony given in Detroit, I'd say that the government wasn't going out of its way to stir up more anti-war/anti-veteran feeling in 1971. The trial of Calley was bad enough. As noted before, I know several dozen veterans from the same unit as one of the VVAW members who gave testimony in Detroit---and they have confirmed his testimony to me in spades.

We did discuss much of this in my threads "Joe Conasan's charges against the SBVFT" and "this website is fueled by lies and innuendo (part two)."

I discussed in those threads the cases of former VVAW members like Scott Camil, Phil Caputo, and W.D. Ehrhart, who all served with the 1/1 Marines between 1966-68. I asked if anyone was willing to call them liars for what they said they saw. So far, no one has.

Anyway, if you guys want to believe that every vet who saw war crimes or who turned against the war---or who just thought the whole insane mess was a tragic waste of lives and joined the VVAW---is a fraud and a liar, be my guest. Are you really telling me that individual war crimes and the general brutality associated with General Westmoreland's search-and-destroy strategy were not fit topics for Kerry and the VVAW in 1971? Do you really think search-and-destroy was the way to win the Vietnam War? Do you really think Westmoreland would have won if only he could have burned more villages, killed and wounded more civilians, and generated more refugees?

Westmoreland put a disaster in motion when he opted for a search-and-destroy strategy. The end result of this misguided and counterproductive strategy was the Winter Soldiers Investigation and Operation Dewey Canyon III.

Why do I keep harping on this? Because this website would have you believe that everyone who joined the VVAW was a liar and a fraud, and that Kerry was dishonorable for associating himself with such individuals. That's a hell of a thing for right-wing combat veterans to say about their left-wing brethern.

If Kerry and the rank-and-file of the VVAW were liars, then so was Phil Caputo (author of A RUMOR OF WAR), W.D. Ehrhart (author of MARKING TIME), Seymour Hersh (author of MY LAI 4 and COVER UP), Gary Solis (author of SON THANG), Daniel Lang (author of CASUALTIES OF WAR), Jonathan Schell (author of THE VILLAGE OF BEN SUC, THE MILITARY HALF, and THE REAL WAR), and on and on and on. . . .

Keith Nolan

[LewWaters]

Keith, splitting hairs makes you across even worse.

The book clearly states these mens names and that Kerry used their words to testify before Fulbright's committee. An offical investigation was performed and found that the "atrocities" could not be substatiated and that many claiming to be vets were in fact, not.

Kerry said the testimony came from men he spoke to. By your hair splitting account, he lied about even that.
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Clark County Conservative

[KeithNolan]

TO LEWWATERS: Come again? I don't understand your point. John Kerry had nothing to do with Mark Lane (who I misidentified as Mark Baker in my previous post) and nothing to do with the disreputable book CONVERSATIONS WITH AMERICANS.

John Kerry had everything to do with the VVAW and the Detroit hearings in 1971. That's where he heard the stories which he relayed to the Senate.

Drawing a clear line between the fakes who showed up in CONVERSATIONS WITH AMERICANS and the genuine veterans who showed up in Detroit is not a matter of splitting hairs. It's a matter of being as accurate as possible.

Anyway, the so-called USMC investigation of the so-called fakes in Detroit revealed (as quoted by Burkett and Lewy) that those who told the most blood-thirsty atrocity stories were phony veterans. Problem is that the most blood-thirsty atrocity stories came from Scott Camil and Joe Bangert, who were most definitely real veterans. So much for the military investigating itself. We already discussed all this at the threads cited before, remember?

I know you guys don't like the political spin of the VVAW, but that really doesn't give you the right to diss on its members as frauds and liars. Like I said, I wish you'd start naming all these so-called frauds.

KWN

[waltjones]

When they prove their accusations, they won't be frauds! Not one ever has - as if Nolan doesn't know that!
_________________
Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor.

[KeithNolan]

TO WALTJONES: one of the veterans at Detroit served with the 1-327th Airborne Infantry. The TOLEDO BLADE recently proved that the Tiger Force of the 1-327th Airborne Infantry committed exactly the kind of war crimes testified to thirty years earlier in Detroit by that former Screaming Eagle who joined the VVAW.

To test the Detroit testimony for myself, I went out (as already noted) and found several dozen guys who served in the same unit as one of those veterans who gave testimony in Detroit. They backed up his testimony in spades.

Then there's the case of wildman Scott Camill who gave some wild testimony in Detroit---testimony that is generally born out by the memories of other veterans of his unit. We discussed this back on the thread "Joe Conasan's charges against the SBVFT," I think.

Vietnam was a very personalized, compartmentalized war, and a veteran's experiences varied greatly depending on leadership, personalities, the extent to which the local population sided with the enemy, and many other variables. Why are you so hellbent on believing that a veteran who saw a different war than you is a liar?

KWN

[JN173]

[KeithNolan]

TO JN173: Here's what Lewy wrote about the testimony in Detroit: "Incidents similar to some of those described at the VVAW hearing undoubtedly did occur. We know that hamlets were destroyed, prisoners tortured, and corpses mutilated."

Here's Burkett's take: "Lewy pointed out that incidents similar to those described at the Winter Soldier hearings did occur."

I think you would agree that there are always far more war crimes than court martials. Not many soldiers are really willing to turn in a combat buddy because he shot an enemy prisoner or something similar. Combat loyalty is much stronger than belief in rules, regulations, and court rooms.

Bear in mind that any number of troops reported what happened at My Lai to their superior officers within twenty-four hours of the massacre. No action was taken. The massacre was effectively covered up and would have remained so had not one single veteran named Ron Ridenhour contacted the U.S. Senate. If not for Ridenhour, we would never know about My Lai---we would, at best, have only heard unprovable rumors about the massacre from veterans who would surely have been dismissed as frauds and liars.

Thanks,
Keith Nolan

[waltjones]

I said proof, Nolan - in a court, with testimony. What you cited is just more of your usual VVAW-defending propaganda! Where's the beef, Nolan??? Look, you and John Boyle already went through this, and he thoroughly thrashed you. Your standard of proof for such serious slander is way too low - just like Micheal Moore! Thatisall ....

PS - For those who didn't know - Nolan's not a vet, much less a Vietnam vet!
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Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor.

[KeithNolan]

WALT JONES wrote "For those who didn't know - Nolan's not a vet, much less a Vietnam vet!"

Well, I think I made it clear that I'm not a vet in the very first line of my very first post at this here website. I've never pretended I was a veteran.

Regarding background, I simply said that I've been interviewing Vietnam veterans and writing about their combat experiences since 1978.

Hope that clarifies the situation.

Keith Nolan
(author of RIPCORD, OPERATION BUFFALO, SAPPERS IN THE WIRE, etc.)

[JN173]