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Me#1You#10
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Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 6503
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 Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 4:12 pm Post subject: this website is fueled by Kerry lies and innuendo |
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Feel free to utilize this space to respond to the various Kerry hacks infesting this board. Consider it as tantamount to sweeping the floor...or should that be cleaning the bilge?
Last edited by Me#1You#10 on Tue May 25, 2004 5:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Me#1You#10
Site Admin
Joined: 06 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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Sweep, sweep, sweep....
| KeithNolan wrote: | Once again, you guys ignore every question I ask and every point I make, and retreat to the if-you-ain't-a-vet-you-don't-know nothin' argument, as if veterans speak with one voice about the Vietnam War.
Like I've said before, guys who were in the same unit at the same time can't even agree about what it all meant. You guys seem to think that your personal experiences, personal feelings, and personal biases represent some kind of Universal Truth.
I'm sure that a large number of veterans do not support Kerry. I've never argued that point. Most veterans are relatively conservative and Kerry is a left-wing Democrat who belonged to the Vietnam Veterans Against the War.
Does anyone really know what kind of support Kerry has among veterans? I don't. Different polls provide different numbers. It's supposed to be half and half right now, isn't it? Actually, I'm kinda surprised that Kerry has ANY support among Vietnam veterans in this conservative, hawkish, super-patriotic post-9/11 country of ours!
Poll numbers aside, the fact remains that fourteen of the fifteen sailors who actually served on Kerry's Swift Boat say he was a fine officer (the lone Kerry-basher seems to have huge memory problems when pressed on details), as do a number of former Army advisors like Jim Rassman who went on joint operations with Kerry. They might not agree with his politics and anti-war activism, but they knew him to be a solid officer in 1969. That's always been my main point.
Why doesn't the support of those men who actually fought alongside Kerry in Vietnam mean a damn thing to you Kerry-bashers? I'm sure you can find hundreds of former Swifties who don't like Kerry, but they weren't shoulder-to-shoulder with him in combat and are mostly ticked off about his days with the VVAW.
By the way, if I have no standing to say my piece at a forum set up for non-veterans, why don't you also stomp on those non-veterans like History Student and Marine's Wife who are also rattling on here?
It seems that if a non-veteran supports your point of view, they get a pass from you and even a few words of encouragement---but if a non-veteran doesn't support your point of view, you play the vet card. You can't have it both ways: either me and Marine's Wife/History Student/etc. all have the right to say our piece, or none of us does.
Doesn't it bother you that a lot of non-veterans at this site are running around, shooting their mouths off about Kerry---he was an incompetent, a coward, a murderer, blah, blah, blah---and refusing to back up all their charges with a shred of evidence?
Doesn't it bother you at all that the same dirty-trick tactics being employed against Kerry were previously employed against John McCain and Max Cleland?
Anyway, I might mention that I've run these posts past a number of Vietnam veterans that I know. I wanted some feedback from guys who were there. I've basically been told, in response, to keep fighting the good fight, but to have no expectation to change the minds of clamped-down idealogues.
These veterans aren't particularly enamored of Kerry (hell, some are retired field-grade officers and don't think too well of the VVAW), but they know a smear-job when they see one and are disgusted at what Bush II's minions have said about the honorable combat service of men like Kerry, McCain, and Cleland.
I won't repeat what these combat veterans have said to me about the vets on this website who presume to speak for the Vietnam Generation. Believe me, guys, you wouldn't like it, and I'm only sorry that I haven't been able to talk any of these combat veterans into jumping down in this muddy ditch with me to wrestle with the haters and idealogues. Why don't they want to get involved with this? Well, they don't need the hate mail, for one thing. More to the point, they just don't seem that fired up about either Kerry or Bush II. Like me, they can't believe that these guys represent our only choice in November. Lord, where's John McCain when you need him?!
Anyway, let me again ask that you Kerry-bashers finally answer the questions and address the topics raised in the first post of this thread. Please don't play the vet card. Please throw down some facts. I'm listening.
Keith Nolan |
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Me#1You#10
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Joined: 06 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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Sweep, sweep, sweep... | sparky wrote: | I just heare LtCol Solis on NPR. He'll be teaching the Law of War at West Point next year. It's good to have such a sane, balanced, and authoritative instructor there.
Keith ... I'm telling you ... you're expecting too much here. These people represent the dark underbelly of conservatism and can't be reasoned with. And they know this. They've been conferencing long enough to know the utter futility of attempting reason and logic in promoting their point and with practice (and failure), they've fallen into their current pattern of groundless accusation always followed by peer acceptance.
Part of their agenda seeks nothing more than the approval of other conservatives here. That's why it's devoid of anything requiring effort. They also know the groundlessness of the charges they make but since others are in on the con game too, it doesn't matter. What does matter to them is defeating Kerry at all costs. The reasons for this vary, but include other issues like abortion, gun control, a feared loss of American hegemony, and most importantly, how the perceptual cards fall on the divisive matter of Vietnam, topics which are difficult for them to argue on their own merits.
I know the feeling that if only you could just reason with them, get them to pause and look at the facts, and cut out the distractions and name calling, they'd see their errors. Sad thing is, they already do but those *other* issues I described above override this.
Another of their motives is the anger at not receiving the "heroes welcome" that comes to returning veterans. In every other war, there was a return symbolized by the archetypal "tickertape parade" complete with easily available women, job offers, free drinks in bars, respect from family and neighbors, etc...
They didn't get that and they're understandably angry with this. Rather than blame those who engineered this war and whose orders they obediently followed, or blaming vets like those in Tiger Force, they blame the truthtellers who came back and reported what they saw. Part of this cognitive distortion includes denying the extent of wrongdoing and accusing those brave souls who spoke the truth of being soviet stooges.
In their mind, not attacking the truthtellers is a step towards accepting blame for atrocities they, as individuals, didn't commit and attacking them puts them one step closer to absolution. Conversely, attacking the leaders who engineered this war and lied to keep it running, opens up questions about their own guilt and gives fuel to the war's opponents.
This explains their tenacity after nearly 4 decades in refusing to place blame where it belongs and their insistence in placing it clearly where it doesn't.
The ultimate insult to them...the thing that would make it much harder for them to look friends, coworkers, and neighbors in the eyes, would be if one of the most outspoken critics of the war who testified about atrocities in Vietnam ascended to the presidency and was permitted the stature of that office. It would symbolically settle the matter as to how the country has come out in its view of the war. In their minds, it's not a symbol of healing, but rather a symbol of defeat; after all, Kerry isn't going to say that the war could have been won had the troops not been straitjacketed by politicians, as the usual cant goes.
I'm convinced that people who stereotype expect that others also stereotype. Not surprising since we expect that others share our own inner thought processes and that they're universalized. For this reason, it's impossible for them to understand that the vast majority of their fellow citizens don't believe they're war criminals and that nearly everyone understands that it was only some bad apples there.
Instead, when they tell people they're Vietnam vets, they anticipate a negative response. When one isn't forthcoming, they assume it's still in the thoughts of the other, but masked. In subtle ways, they then treat the other person as an accuser who just hasn't verbalized the accusation. And ultimately, they find themselves surrounded by hostile Vietnam vet haters, reinforcing their initial belief. [/i] |
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PhuCat to Phu Quoc
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 110
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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Me#1You#10 quoted John Kerry
"I’m an internationalist. I’d like to see our troops dispersed through the world only at the directive of the United Nations." John Kerry- The Harvard Crimson
In my opinion, John Kerry wasn't lying when he told that to Harvard Crimson.
If you want John Kerry lies and innuendo, turn to his Congressional testimony, the Winter Soldier hearings at the Howard Johnson's, the gathering at Valley Forge State Park, Labor Day 1971. |
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waltjones
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 392
Location: 'bout 40 miles north of Seattle
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| Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 4:51 pm Post subject: Challenge |
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Hey, Nolan and all you Kerry hacks: I've got an idea; why don't you go find 220 Swift Boat Vets who support Kerry? That shouldn't be a problem, right? Then you could start your own BB and everything! I'm afraid most of the officers and all Kerry's COs are taken though, but I'm sure you'll improvise. Good luck! Thatisall ....
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Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor. |
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Me#1You#10
Site Admin
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 6503
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| Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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Sweep, sweep, sweep...yet more fodder for the Troll Sty...
| KeithNolan wrote: | Sparky, that was brilliant. I think you've discovered the real root of this rabid Kerry-bashing, and have spoken to the problem with intelligence and compassion. Too bad that most of the veterans here won't understand that you're really on their side.
I agree, too, with your comment about this website representing the underbelly of the conservative movement. Up until now, I would have described myself as an old-fashioned conservative Republican (you know, the kind who doesn't agree with all that Kerry said while with the VVAW, but will defend his right to say it and attempt to understand where he was coming from), but this exposure to dirty-tricks and hate-filled idealogues has left me rather disenchanted with the GOP.
More later. . . .
Keith Nolan |
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Me#1You#10
Site Admin
Joined: 06 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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Sweep, sweep, sweep....
| Craig wrote: | | waltjones wrote: | Same challenge applies to you, Craig; I'm inviting dissent! Come on, Craig, you can find some - but no cut and pastes allowed! They actually have to sign an open letter in support of Kerry. Well ?
I've got an idea; why don't you go find 220 Swift Boat Vets who support Kerry? That shouldn't be a problem, right? Then you could start your own BB and everything! I'm afraid most of the officers and all Kerry's COs are taken though, but I'm sure you'll improvise.
As for this pap:
| Quote: | Then what you want here is just an "attaboy" group where you can all feel warm and fuzzy among peers who all agree and reinforce one another?
How brave. |
I've not been too impressed with your bravery, either Craig, but that's something you wouldn't know much about anyway. Thatisall.... |
Your challenge is about as much as some lap dog with an amorous interest in my pant leg.
Someone already posted a list of Vets who signed a particular letter and the list has grown since.
No cut and paste? WTF - you want I should get original and have it notarized and sent registered mail? |
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Me#1You#10
Site Admin
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| Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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Sweep, sweep, sweep...
| Speedy wrote: | | Greenhat wrote: | | KeithNolan wrote: |
As for why I think Kerry should be serving a life term in prison? That has to do with treason, specifically with meeting and negotiating with representatives of the enemy in direct violation of both US Code and UCMJ as well as the US Constitution. It also has to do with taking part in a conspiracy to assassinate US Senators, another violation of US Code and UCMJ and very possibly treason under the US Constitution. And it has to do with the destruction of information and intentional steering of a Senate sub-committee to turn their backs on US POWs held in SE Asia after 1973. The first two? They are documented, including by Kerry's own words |
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Since you ONLY addressed Kerry, NOT Calley....I am assuming you support the baby killer and convicted war-crimes Lt. ???
Come on Greehat....tell us what you think about Calley and the sentance he served. Answer it!
Also, you apparently think it is worse to come home and speak your mind.... than to murder and rape innocents while you were there. Is this true? Answer it!
With your twisted conscience, I shudder to think what you felt was 'OK' to do while you were there...if you even were there.
Oh yeah....answer the questions! |
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Speedy wrote: | | Greenhat wrote: |
As for why I think Kerry should be serving a life term in prison? That has to do with treason, specifically with meeting and negotiating with representatives of the enemy in direct violation of both US Code and UCMJ as well as the US Constitution. It also has to do with taking part in a conspiracy to assassinate US Senators, another violation of US Code and UCMJ and very possibly treason under the US Constitution. And it has to do with the destruction of information and intentional steering of a Senate sub-committee to turn their backs on US POWs held in SE Asia after 1973. The first two? They are documented, including by Kerry's own words |
Since you ONLY addressed Kerry, NOT Calley....I am assuming you support the baby killer and convicted war-crimes Lt. ???
Come on Greehat....tell us what you think about Calley and the sentance he served. Answer it!
Also, you apparently think it is worse to come home and speak your mind.... than to murder and rape innocents while you were there. Is this true? Answer it!
With your twisted conscience, I shudder to think what you felt was 'OK' to do while you were there...if you even were there.
Oh yeah....answer the questions! |
Do you actually think that being an ass somehow creates a situation where people want to answer you? You just come across as a fuckwit (which you have done admirably well).
As for Calley, I think he should have been executed.
And my opinion of John Kerry is not based on him speaking his mind, it is on him violating US Code. Actions. They do count.
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De Oppresso Liber |
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 6:03 pm Post subject: Re: this website is fueled by Kerry lies and innuendo |
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and crimes...
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De Oppresso Liber |
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Craig wrote: | | Greenhat wrote: |
You're an ass, you know that? As for Calley, I think he should have been executed. Satisfied? Btw, my opinion of Kerry is based not on him speaking his mind, but on his acts that were violations of the law. |
American law does not work like that.
There is a precept of law such: "Innocent until proven guilty".
Do you not love America and the ideals of American Justice? |
It does when the person has admitted to the crimes as Kerry has.
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De Oppresso Liber |
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Marine's Wife
PO3
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 267
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| Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 7:38 pm Post subject: subject |
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I can just see Sparky/Nolan shaking hands with himselves.  Trolls do that you know. As for Kerry try TREASON |
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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The US Constitution
Section. 3.
Clause 1: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
Clause 2: The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.
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De Oppresso Liber |
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Marine's Wife
PO3
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 267
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| Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 11:59 pm Post subject: subject |
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| Thanks for posting this GH! Seems to me some people don't know it still applies to a damn traitor! Can't you just see Kerry and ol' Saddam lined up against a wall? Hanoi John is still " GIVING AID AND COMFORT ! |
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mikest
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 377
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 12:16 am Post subject: |
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Since both Nixon and the FBI were folowing Kerry and looking for any way to discredit him, why didn't they try and charge him?
And does this apply to the people who gave info to Chalabi? |
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