SwiftVets.com

[Jerry M]

On the front page of USA Today, John McCain said he is tired of re-fighting the Vietnam War. He needs to tell that to his Senate pal John Kerry who has chosen to make his service in Vietnam the reason he should be elected Commander in Chief. That has legitimately opened both his war and anti-war record to scrutiny by veterans who were in the best position to raise questions about both. Unlike McCain who called these men "dishonest and dishonorable", they actually served with Kerry and observed his conduct first hand. McCain has no standing to make ad hominem attacks on them. John Kerry has been put to a test and the real story now should be how he has handled himself. Instead of opening his records to disprove the allegations being made against him, his response has been to make legal threats against televison and radio stations who are running the ads, to attempt to censor the book "Unfit for Command" by trying to keep it out of book stores, to make frivolous complaints to the FEC and to accuse the Bush campaign of smearing him even though he has no evidence to prove his charges. Swift boat vet ads aside, what the American people should take away from this is his reaction to criticism. President Bush never came close to conducting himself similarly with respect to the Michael Moore movie, the MoveOn.org ads or the Richard Clarke book. The outcry would have been ear shattering if he had.
The Swift boat vets need to point out his attack on First Amendment rights and refusal to sign the 180 in future ads because the mainstream media won't.

[FF1047]

You may be tired of fighting with the John Kerry's of the world about the Vietnam war and I wouldn't blame you.

But the fact is there can never be peace between the Kerry's of this world and the Vietnam Veterans. And there never should be ...

All Vietnam veterans were slandered and abused by the lies that Kerry told the world in 1971. In fact the abuse from anti-war protestors was not just directed at Vietnam Vets but at all who served. I was called a Baby Killer in Boston's Harvard Square in 1976 just because I was in uniform.

What Kerry did in 1971 was evil. He knowingly told lies that would cause great anguish among veterans and would strengthen the enemy.

How many names on the wall are there because of John Kerry ?
How many vets committed suicide from the strain and pressure caused by the abuse heaped on them by people repeating those same lies ?

All men (and women) have a dark side to them.

For many it was sinking into that dark side that allowed them to survive the horror of combat.

But most veterans chose not to stay in that dark place. They rose out of it return to what they hoped would be a normal life again only to come home to accusations of Baby Killer from their neighbors and old friends.

They came home and had to face that dark side again, but this time it was not in them but in the anti-war protestors led by Mr. Kerry.

There is no hatred in the truth, Kerry's lies were spawned from hatred ...

The truth is the light that will finally put to rest the dark lies told about a generation of veterans, lies that are accepted as facts even today ...

No Mr. McCain there can be no peace between lies and the truth ... between the light and the dark side of humanity ...

Pick a side ...
_________________
JJC
USNA class of 1980

[Ordie_rat]

[Paul]

“All Vietnam veterans were slandered and abused by the lies that Kerry told the world in 1971. In fact the abuse from anti-war protestors was not just directed at Vietnam Vets but at all who served. . . . How many names on the wall are there because of John Kerry ? . . . No Mr. McCain there can be no peace between lies and the truth ... between the light and the dark side of humanity ...” {FF1047}

Well Said. Just keying on a couple of the comments to consider other aspects as well, particularly post ’69.

The anti-war movement was not only effective in whipping up the charge of “baby killers” among a portion of our population, the largest portion being most especially among the nation’s youth, now increasingly becoming an ever larger proportion of our nation's 'older generation' today (so much for "Forever Young" which will increasingly be sung in the rest homes more than anywhere else soon), but it was also effective in its subversive activities inside our armed forces.

Post 1970 & ’71 were when the numbers of murders dubbed fraggings increased sharply and to previously unheard of proportions for Americans (some more names on the wall of the Vietnam Memorial to consider), two USN air craft carriers operating in the Gulf of Tonkin experienced minor mutinies aboard, and the number of mutinous actions increased in numerous small units of other branches of the service inside the RVN, and the increase in drug use among our servicemen (an effective tactic advocated by Mao Tse Tung). Further, the disruption was felt throughout our armed forces. Discipline and morale declined, recruiting plummeted, re-enlistments plummeted, the view of the service, particularly among a large proportion of the Baby Boomer generation (and much of its progeny since) plummeted. . . The problems created had consequences through the 1970s into the early 1980s through to today, for ourselves and others around the world.

The inroads and influence of the Vietnam pro-Hanoi anti-war movement in our nation’s political system, including our congress, led to the U.S. failure to even respond, never mind act, when north Vietnam violated the cease fire agreed to in the 1973 Geneva Peace Accords. Further, it led to our nation's failure to meet the promised levels of economic support to our allies, Republic of Vietnam (RVN), Kingdom of Laos, Cambodia, made specifically to the government of the RVN so as to gain it’s signature in the ’73 cease fire signed by most (but not all) parties in the ’73 Paris Accords. And all led to the final abandonment of our anti-Communist allies in the region, and their subsequent post-75 falls to the north Vietnamese Offensive initiated following the 1954 Geneva Accords with the French, one right after the other. And the United States has not recovered from that abandonment and her perception throughout the world and by our enemies and those who would make themselves our enemies as being an unreliable ally, and a nation populated by a majority of decadent and ephemeral individuals, to this day.

Our post-75 to roughly '82 armed forces were not the undisciplined, doped-up rabble and inepts that some would try to present them as today. However, the problems begun in the early ‘70s due to the actions of the pro-Hanoi anti-war movement inside our armed forces did exist and it was not one of the more shining periods in their history; except that even with the problems, low pay, and low image held throughout much of the nation of the mid to late ‘70s / early ‘80s, the increased commitments of the late ‘70s and early ‘80s, particularly in the naval service, added in addition to the existing world-wide commitments, were met in spite of the problems, the poor national image and the low recruiting that placed difficulties on manning throughout the Fleet.

The lies and distortions presented by the pro-Hanoi anti-war movement have since become enshrined in our culture; in popular novels, movies, music and throughout out education system: jr. high through university level, and now now even in the post-93 armed forces in our nation’s military and naval academies.

And this is only a partial listing of the “fruits” of the pro-Hanoi anti-war movement that impacted our nation then, through the 1970s and through to today.

John Kerry was a real "plum" for the pro-Hanoi anti-war movement and mostly only an 'up and comer' in it in 1969 through '71, when one after another of our civilian leaders who advocated for US involvement in SE Asia (and set the policy under which our military and naval services were constrained by) were busy retracting their positions and writing their public editorials listing why it was all a mistake, as though it were on they had no part in; Former Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, "Mr. Body Count" himself, waited until 1995, the 20th anniversary of the fall of Saigon for his sorry self-serving public revision.

John Kerry's personal testimony to congress in April '71 has served as foundation for the bulk of the above, then and since. He and his fellow elites have perpetuated it all since. Even to the point that they thought that they'd get away with the nonsense of re-casting his 4 months in Vietnam as a LtJg as evidence of "leadership" traits suitable for Commander in Chief.

Caricatures of the Vietnam era abound in our popular media and politics. New ones are being formulated now in recent years, mostly purporting to be vindications of the men who served in Vietnam, but from what I can see they do nothing to vindiate the men who served and are increasingly nonsense rationalizations that attempt to vindicate the policies and the civilian leaders who set them during the period rather than those who served under and were constricted by their policies, all only to further new agendas. The period is more used by most, than it is honestly studied.

Yes. It needs to be fought.

PS. I apologize for all of the typos and some of the poor grammar in the original post. I hope that most have been caught now.
_________________
Paul

[Paul]

"As far as I'm concerned when Kerry lied to Congress about combat veterans in 1971, he crossed over to the status of Domestic" {EnemyOrdie_rat}

Well said.
_________________
Paul

[Truegrit]

FF1047,

I was teaching at Harvard in 71-72 and remember the radicals who were trying to intimidate professors, trying to abridge their freedom of speech (and I went to the defense of one of the profs under attack). These people are vicious, and that is coming out in the Kerry campaign's response to the legitimate exercise of the SBVT groups' effort to set the record straight.

I will be going back to Harvard Square soon with handouts and a sign that I have made (ordered made), and hopefully I will be joined there and in other parts of Boston to protest Kerry's lies against his fellow vets in 71.

If you know of anyone who would like to assist, my email is Harwood_T@msn.com

Ted
_________________
Ted Harwood, Ph.D.
Enlisted, U.S. Army ('57-'60)

[4moreyears]

I'm slightly dissappointed with John McCain...I figured him for having more grit.

I'm sure he has grit...I just wish he'd display it against kerry instead of being a kerry appeaser.

Seriously...when any of the SBVFT vets meet McCain, how will he be able to have eye contact. Does he put lies and the worth of one over the TRUTH and the MULTITUDES who served with honor.
_________________
kerry returned to the United States on July 22, 1971, held a press conference publicly calling on President Nixon... for the surrender of the United States to North Vietnam.

[Twidget]

This is McCain's way of getting a shot in on Kerry while appearing positive...everyone knows who brought up Vietnam in the first place.

[geotilman]

I for one would not speak against Sen. McCain but their is one thing for sure he don't speak for me .I finished my service under the name of Baby Killer when I was in Uniform I would see people turn away when they saw that Green Ribbon on my Uniform and I Da** sure I will not help Hanio John Kerry sell me out again .The President of the United States or any other man Shall not shut me up again I think 33 years is long enough.DAMM THE TORPEDOES FULL AHEAD.

[Truegrit]

Paul, good comment. Long but worth reading in its entirety.
_________________
Ted Harwood, Ph.D.
Enlisted, U.S. Army ('57-'60)

[wshhml]

Well, isn't that nice of McCain. Now will he please tell that to John Kerry? He seemed to be fine with Kerry using Vietnam over and over again since his campaign started. That's really all Kerry wanted to tout-this supposed image of the Audie Murphy of Vietnam-a great American hero out defending his country. Now that those who served with him and the details of that service and his vicious words against American servicemen's honorable service and providing morale to the enemy have come out with the Swift Vets, he's attempting to claim the Bush campaign has created all of this. NO, John, Kerry shouldn't have made himself out to be something he's not! Now, let's get to talking about Kerry's Senate record. Of course, that's considered an "attack" too.

[eliptak]

I for one have no problem speaking out against John McCain. Incredibly heroic actions while a POW, although admirable, do not buy you a lifetime pass to make dumb statements and take dumb positions.

I respect the hell out of John McCain for his service and his incredible innner strength as a POW, but when he called the Swiftees "Dishonest and Dishonorable" that was way over the top. He was not there; he has no idea of who is telling the truth.

If he said he didn't think this was worthy of debate, or some other political nonsense that would be fine. But the "Dishonest and Dishonorable" quote made me lose a lot of respect for him. I think he's bucking for SECDEF in a Kerry administration.
_________________
Ed Liptak
B/2/502
101st Abn Div
1966-1967

[geotilman]

Ed don't get me wrong about McCain I don't Like him either I lost him the day he embraced Ho in Hanio but I guess I can't forget he was a POW I also remember when he talked about other POW's we even know about the Royal treatment because his Father was John S McCain .

[redhawk34]

Senator McCain seems to be under the impression that he holds the office of "Chief Vietnam Veteran." I don't remember that election.
His panacea for "healing the wounds of the Vietnam War" is manifestly that we should all just forget what happened, do business with, and travel to Communist Vietnam, kiss and make up with those who betrayed their country, their comrades, and their transient honor.
Sorry, I don't feel like a chorus of "Kumbaya." Senator McCain has earned the right to do as he sees fit. So have I.
The 750 men of my brigade named upon the Wall, slandered for decades by the Fondas and Kerrys, cannot speak. That is my proud duty.
"It was all a long time ago?" Last time I checked, they're all still dead.
I might begin to "forgive and forget" when I see those who made their careers from their disloyalty, becoming wealthy and powerful because of it, begin to pay some significant price for their craven actions.
Senator, what part of "Freedom of Speech" do you not understand?
Redhawk 34

[geotilman]

Yes Sir; I agree I guess I will never forget the day I picked my best's Friends body out of the Perfume River the last words he spoke was Partner that Bi*** has killed me we had heard Hanio Hanna broadcasting apprasing Jane Fonda on the radio just before going across the river to work on a LCM8 that was used for ferrying for Military in the area.I guess that is why I dislike Kerry so much .I don't think I understand McCain unless he has not forgot about what happened before.