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Nomorelies
Vice Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 977
Location: Texas
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 Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:50 am Post subject: |
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Cipher,
The Latino article (there is more at the web site) was very pro-Bush.
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Nomorelies
Vice Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 977
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:55 am Post subject: |
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September 10, 2004
But What If They Had Been Good Forgeries?
Hilarious article, a must read:
http://ace.mu.nu/archives/045201.php
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Skypilot
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 82
Location: Eastern PA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:19 am Post subject: |
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Here is yet another example of MSM bias? How can you ask for an opinion on material within a document that has been proven almost beyond a reasonable doubt to be a forgery? Shameless!
0100GMT 12.09.2004
U.S. Servicemen React to Bush Guard Memos
By ELLIOTT MINOR, Associated Press Writer
ALBANY, Ga. - Some current and retired members of the National Guard and other military services say they aren't bothered by newly revealed memos that indicate President Bush (news - web sites) got preferential treatment in the Air National Guard during the Vietnam War, while others say they are troubling. Lt. Col. Jim Driscoll, spokesman for the Georgia Army National Guard, said retired service members may comment on political issues such as the Bush documents, but most current reservists and active-duty service members will hesitate to voice their political opinions. "It would be inappropriate," he said. "The president is our commander-in-chief and so we have to be very careful from an ethical perspective of how we express our political opinions." Frank Jones says he's angry about the documents, but he's not surprised by favoritism in the Guard. Jones, a Republican from Troy, N.Y., served in Vietnam in 1970 and 1971 before doing 16 years in the Guard himself. As the presidential election nears, Jones says controversy over both candidates' military records and the mounting death toll in Iraq (news - web sites) are important issues. "I'm really in neither camp at this point," he said. "However, I do see a direct correlation to Vietnam. The body count is really starting to get to me."
The documents, which became fodder for Democratic critics last week, indicate Bush was suspended from flying with his Texas Air National Guard unit because he missed a medical exam and that he missed six months of training. Questions have been raised about the documents' authenticity. Some who served in the National Guard say it is common practice to miss drills — even up to six months — because of job conflicts, family problems or illness.
Ralph Bradley, 56, a Republican from Albany who served three years in Vietnam in the Air Force and 17 years in the Georgia Army National Guard, said members are encouraged to make up drills so they don't lose pay or retirement benefits. "There's all kinds of situations ... that cause a person to go out of state for a period of time," he said. Army Reserve Sgt. Tim Wilding, 37, of Jefferson City, Mo., agreed. Back home for two weeks of leave from Iraq, Wilding said he remains a staunch Bush supporter despite allegations Bush may have tried to get out of Guard drills for several months in 1972. "A lot of guys don't serve for four or five months at a time," he said. "They've got other stuff going on. They'll make it up later on, or they just won't get paid. That's really no big deal to a lot of National Guard soldiers."
Allegations of suspect conduct during the Vietnam war also have been leveled at John Kerry (news - web sites), who won three Purple Hearts, a Silver Star and a Bronze Star in Vietnam.
A group sponsoring television ads challenging his wartime record contends Kerry's own gunfire caused the wound that brought his first Purple Heart. Navy records and other veterans do not support the charge.
Ahmad Majied of Albany says the latest allegations about Bush's military record are more troubling to him than allegations about service honors leveled at Democratic challenger Kerry. Majied, a Democrat from Albany who served 30 years in the Navy, including five years as a SEAL in Vietnam, said the memos support his belief that Bush was a "playboy" during his service years. "He had enough money to get what he wanted," Majied said. "I think his main concern was not to go to Southeast Asia. I bet he never dreamed it would come back to haunt him." Neal Eubanks of Leesburg, who served 39 years in the military — 23 in the Air Force and 16 in the Georgia Army National Guard — said the presidential candidates should move beyond their military records and focus on the issues, such as the economy and unemployment. "You don't see Korean veterans or World War II veterans or Grenada veterans always talking about 'I served here and I served there,'" said Eubanks, 67, a Bush supporter.
And as a matter of course, a jab at the SBVT needed to be in there too. This article reeks of bias![/b]
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cipher
Vice Admiral
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 902
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:26 am Post subject: |
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I know the article was good. It's just that the question was bad.
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US Army 75-79, 97th Sig, SHAPE, NATO
Arkansas National Guard 79
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Navyfam
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 19 Aug 2004
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:33 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the link Nomor. The thought of better forgeries is kind of scary. Imagine forgeries about the Iraq war rather that the President's National Guard Service which have been so many times, it doesn't matter anymore. What does matter is the forgeries.
I read the statement by Damn Rathernot where he complained that because of the attacks on these (forged) documents, nobody was reading them and thinking about the implications raised in them. W violated a direct order!! He had pressure put on Killian by superior officers!!
Has Rathernot been eating funny brownies? Has he escaped to the land of his secret friends? Was he shut up in dark closets too much as a child? In the real world, people don't take the content seriously in a forged document. Damn Rathernot, with his rose colored glasses that pinch his head too tight thinks we ought to.
COME OUT OF THAT DARK CLOSET, DAMN RATHERNOT, THE LIGHT OF TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE!
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lrb111
Captain
Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 508
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:36 am Post subject: |
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| Skypilot wrote: | | "I'm really in neither camp at this point," he said. "However, I do see a direct correlation to Vietnam. The body count is really starting to get to me." |
Oh yeah, let's start the similarities to Vietnam.... asshats...
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said Democratic Chairman Terry McAuliffe. "It is inexcusable to mock service and sacrifice."
well, when even the DNC can see it,,,,, then kerry is toast. |
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arymann
PO3
Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 269
Location: GA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:43 am Post subject: |
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I haven't gone back through all the posts to see if this issue was resolved, but The American Spectator brings up the issue of the Forms.
Excerpt 1 from article below:
| Quote: | | For one thing, the proper authority Lt. Colonel Killian should have cited to remind Lt. Bush of his duty to undergo an annual medical examination would have been AFM 160-1. AFM 160-1 contains the actual schedule and other requirements about these medical exams. |
Excerpt 2:
| Quote: | | So not only does the author of this memo cite the wrong authority(AFM 35-13 as opposed to AFM 160-1), he gets the deadline for Lt. Bush's examination wrong. The deadline would have been July 6 the, as opposed to May 14th. |
| Quote: | Killian Memo Has Wrong Deadline, Cites Wrong RegulationSeptember 11th, 2004
Here is the text of the the May 1972 memo that is purportedly from Bush's Texas Air National Guard commander, Lt. Colonel Jerry Killian:
111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron
P.O. Box 34567
Houston, Texas 77034
04 May 1972
MEMORANDUM FOR 1st Lt. George W. Bush, 5000 Longmont .8,
Houston, Texas 77027
SUBJECT: Annual Physical Examination (Flight)
1. You are ordered to report to commander, 111 F.L.S., Ellington AFB, not later than (NLT) 14 May, 1972 to conduct annual physical examination (flight)IAW AFM 35-13.
2. Report to 111th F.L.S. administrative officer for schedule of appointment and additional instructions. Examination will be conducted in duty status.
(Signature)
JERRY B. KILLIAN
Lt. Colonel
Commander
Besides the typographical problems that many have already raised, there are some questions as well about the memo's actual content.
For one thing, the proper authority Lt. Colonel Killian should have cited to remind Lt. Bush of his duty to undergo an annual medical examination would have been AFM 160-1. AFM 160-1 contains the actual schedule and other requirements about these medical exams.
Indeed, for this we have not less an authority than the Kerry campaign's website:
Para 2-29m, AFM 35-13: “When a Rated Officer Fails To Accomplish a Medical Examination Prescribed by AFM 160-1 [emphasis added] …(1)The local commander who has authority to convene a Flying Evaluation Board will direct an investigation as to why the individual failed to accomplish the medical examination. After reviewing the findings of the investigation, the local commander may convene a Flying Evaluation Board or forward through command channels a detailed report of the circumstances which resulted in the officer’s failure to accomplish a medical examination, along with a recommendation that the suspension be removed. (2) The individual’s major command will forward the report along with the command recommendation to USAFMPC/DPMAJD, Randolph AFB TX 78148 for final determination.”
But according to the AFM 160-1 Bush (like practically everyone else in the Air Force National Guard at the time), was required to get a medical examination every year within 3 months preceding birthday.
President George W. Bush was born on July 6, 1946. So according to the controlling authority (AFM 160-1) he had a window from April 6, 1972 until July 6, 1972 to get his "medical."
But his Lt. Colonel is made out to be entirely ignorant of such details: "You are ordered to report to commander, 111 F.L.S., Ellington AFB, not later than (NLT) 14 May, 1972 [emphasis added] to conduct annual physical examination (flight)IAW AFM 35-13."
So not only does the author of this memo cite the wrong authority(AFM 35-13 as opposed to AFM 160-1), he gets the deadline for Lt. Bush's examination wrong. The deadline would have been July 6 the, as opposed to May 14th.
It is difficult to believe that anybody--let alone a Lt. Colonel --would not know the proper regulations to cite. It is also hard to believe he would not know the proper deadlines for such an annually occurring requirement. And of course he would have had ready access to Bush's date of birth.
More generally speaking, there are other things in this and the other memos that should give us pause, especially when compared to the Kerry campaign's website and its complaints about Bush's National Guard record.
For instance, we know from the authentic NG records that Lt. Bush was suspended via verbal orders.
And yet we are to believe that a Lt. Colonel would take the time to artfully (centered letterhead) type out a memo to order a pilot to take his routine annual "medical"--and that his commander would bother to type it personally.
One would hope that Lt. Colonels in the National Guard would have had better things to do with their time than to give written orders to pilots about such mundane minutia.
A cynical person might go so far as to wonder if this material wasn't largely inspired by some of the questions raised on Kerry's aforementioned campaign website, where they delve into this very subject in closely tracking language.
FACT: Bush Was Suspended From Flight Duty For Failing To Take Mandated Medical Exam.
On September 29, 1972, Bush was officially suspended from flying for missing his annual medical examination. The orders note that Bush’s suspension is authorized under the guidelines presented in Air Force Manual 35-12 Para 2-29m, which reads that Bush’s local commander “will direct an investigation as to why the individual failed to accomplish the medical examination.” [Aeronautical Orders, Number 87, 29 Sept 72; AFM 35-13, Para 2-29m] Where Are The Complete Results Of The Required Investigation Into Bush’s Absence From The Exam?
FACT: The order suspending Bush from flight duty stated: “Verbal orders of the Comdr on 1 Aug 72 suspending 1STLT George W. Bush…from flying status are confirmed…Reason for Suspension: Failure to accomplish annual medical examination. Off will comply with para 2-10, AFM 35-13. Authority: Para 2-29m, AFM 35-13.
A suspicious person might wonder if the author picked up on the remark in Bush's records that his suspension was done verbally and went wild with the idea.
For you will notice in another of these purported memos, dated 01 August 1972, how its author is careful to state that everything was done verbally--and even though his recommendations "were received" there was no confirmation.
Notice how nicely the wording supplies exactly what the Kerry camp was asking for:
111 th Fighter Interceptor Squadron
P.O. Box 34567
Houston, Texas 77034
01 August 1972
Memorandum FOR RECORD
SUBJECT: Bush, George W. Ist Lt.3244754FG
Suspension of Flight status
1. On this date I ordered that 1st Lt. Bush be suspended from flight status due to failure to perform to USAF/TexANG standards and failure to meet annual physical examination (flight) as ordered.
2. I conveyed my verbal orders to commander, 147th Ftr Intrcp Gp with request for orders for suspension and convening of a flight review board IAW AFM 35-13.
3. I recommended transfer of this officer to the 9921 st Air Reserve Squadron in May and
forwarded his AF Form 1288 to 147 th Ftr Intrcp Gp headquarters. The transfer was not allowed. Officer has made no attempt to meet his training certification or flight physical. Officer expresses desire to transfer out of state including assignment to non-flying billets.
4. On recommendation of Harris, I also suggested that we fill this critical billet with a more
*seasoned pilot from the list of qualified Vietnam pilots that have rotated. Recommendations were received but not confirmed.
[signed]
Such coincidences might make a cynical person even go so far as to wonder if the Kerry camp wasn't involved in the creation of these memos.
But I'm sure CBS News will investigate the provenance of these memos so carefully that all will be revealed to everyone's satisfaction--even the most cynical among us.
Steve Gilbert |
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=3833 |
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cipher
Vice Admiral
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 902
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:51 am Post subject: |
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arymann,
This issue was first brought up in this thread on page 22, two days ago. At the time, we didn't have access to the document cited, and the mechanicals were the more proveable flaw. Consensus was to disregard the content (for the time being) and focus on the immediately proveable.
Now, Rather is saying "It's the message, not the medium", so we need to challenge the content, since that is what he is hanging his hat (or other part of his anatomy) on right now.
The complications involved were discussed on the 9th, and basically shelved by mutual concurrence. However, it is nice to see someone picked up the ball and ran with it.
Yay, team!
_________________
USMC 69-72, 7th Comm, 3rd MarDiv, FMFPAC
US Army 75-79, 97th Sig, SHAPE, NATO
Arkansas National Guard 79
Defense contractor for US Navy, SSPO, SP-20, SP-24, OP-12 84-92 |
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TEWSPilot
Admiral
Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 1235
Location: Kansas (Transplanted Texan)
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:51 am Post subject: |
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Time to get off the fence, after all, today IS September 11. Not trying to get religious, but I wonder what God thinks about "fence sitters".
(ring, ring) HELLO.
Is this God?
YES.
Hate to bother you, but what do you think about folks who still haven't decided whether we should be fighting a war against Islamofascists?
GLAD YOU ASKED, SON,
| Quote: | REV 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
REV 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
REV 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. |
Thanks,
...thought so.
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Skypilot
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 82
Location: Eastern PA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 2:54 am Post subject: |
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New CBS Evening News Logo:
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 3:00 am Post subject: |
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| lrb111 wrote: | | Skypilot wrote: | | "I'm really in neither camp at this point," he said. "However, I do see a direct correlation to Vietnam. The body count is really starting to get to me." |
Oh yeah, let's start the similarities to Vietnam.... asshats... |
Asshats, indeed.
The only similarities to Vietnam is that the leftist press is pushing a nihilistic, negative view of the war on terror onto the viewing public and they are beginning to work on remaking today's soldier in the same image they so successfully propagated for Vietnam veterans.
Instead of pinning an ugly and undeserved reputation on the members of our Armed Forces, let's expose the media for who they truly are.
It isn't that they're anti-WAR - they are full-out anti-MILITARY.
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Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
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cipher
Vice Admiral
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 902
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 3:10 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | It isn't that they're anti-WAR - they are full-out anti-MILITARY. |
Actually, I think treason falls under the category of Anti-American.
And let there be no doubt, attempting to influence an election by the use of forged military documents, reported as official, IS treason.
To perpetrate the fraud and continue to deny the forgery and to emphasize the fraudulent CONTENT contained in the forged documents against a sitting president during a time of war is HIGH treason.
It's time to stop with the sugar coating this, and time to start some serious investigation by the DoJ.
_________________
USMC 69-72, 7th Comm, 3rd MarDiv, FMFPAC
US Army 75-79, 97th Sig, SHAPE, NATO
Arkansas National Guard 79
Defense contractor for US Navy, SSPO, SP-20, SP-24, OP-12 84-92 |
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Tacan70UDN
PO2
Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 392
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 3:12 am Post subject: |
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"1. You are ordered to report to commander, 111 F.I.S., Ellington AFB, not later than (NLT) 14 May, 1972 to conduct annual physical examination (flight)IAW AFM 35-13."
For what it's worth, and maybe some other AF aviators can confirm, I never saw the term "not later than (NLT)" used. It was either one or the other: "not later than" OR "NLT".
Also, I never saw the expression "annual physical examination (flight)". It was always "flight physical".
This whole thing looks fishy! |
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cipher
Vice Admiral
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 902
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2004 3:17 am Post subject: |
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Every one of those documents stink. I wouldn't wrap day-old fish in it.
What is terrrifying to contemplate is what if they WERE good forgeries?
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USMC 69-72, 7th Comm, 3rd MarDiv, FMFPAC
US Army 75-79, 97th Sig, SHAPE, NATO
Arkansas National Guard 79
Defense contractor for US Navy, SSPO, SP-20, SP-24, OP-12 84-92 |
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W.P. Wily
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Joined: 26 Aug 2004
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