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MDunlap
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 10
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 Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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First, this story is total bull. Everyone with a brain knows it. How can something be SEARED into your brain and the facts be all wrong. I can certainly remember the day Kennedy was shot. It was seared into my brain and the date, time, and what I was doing was SEARED into my brain. Along with 9/11. Nothing has changed there. Especially history. Written history.
Now lets see…I was just trying to remember my history….Kerry said that he was being shot at by the Khamer Rouge on one side and the friendly fire from the other side of the border. Correct me if I am wrong. The Khamer Rouge did not exist until 1972 or 1973 did it? |
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lrb111
Captain
Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 508
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| Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| MDunlap wrote: |
Now lets see…I was just trying to remember my history….Kerry said that he was being shot at by the Khamer Rouge on one side and the friendly fire from the other side of the border. Correct me if I am wrong. The Khamer Rouge did not exist until 1972 or 1973 did it? |
This bio on Pol Pot puts them at '67
http://www.cbv.ns.ca/dictator/pol%20pot.html
_________________
said Democratic Chairman Terry McAuliffe. "It is inexcusable to mock service and sacrifice."
well, when even the DNC can see it,,,,, then kerry is toast. |
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SonTestedShelter
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 46
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| Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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John Kerry should become a fiction writer.
Wait...he already is.
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Reg
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 1:00 am Post subject: |
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| Reg wrote: |
6. Who led PCF-50 in CD-11 during Feb. 1969?
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Interesting Update:
WWW.swiftboats.net reports that Patrick Sheedy was the officer in charge of PCF-50 during early 1969. A Patrick Sheedy, Cdr., USN (ret) is also a co-signer of the SBVT letter to Kerry. Is this accurate?
If true it would be very interesting to get Mr. Sheedy's thoughts on the mission decribed in the Feb. 1969 Spot reports.
Revised UpdateI:
Mr. Sheedy is not in the CD-11 group photo. Now I'm confused: who was the Officer in Charge of PCF-50 in CD-11 at An Thoi during Feb. 1969? Is there a list of officers with there corresponding PCF boats on this web site?
Revised UpdateII:
Brinkley's "Tour of Duty" p.250 and page 182 has Mike Bernique as the OIC of PCF-50 at An Thoi for at least some period of time. Not clear if that period includes Feb. 1969.
Last edited by Reg on Sat Aug 14, 2004 9:54 am; edited 2 times in total |
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LewWaters
Admin
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State
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| Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 1:05 am Post subject: |
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The Boston Globe ran an excerpt from what is alleged to be Kerry's personal Vietnam war journal. Reading it, I'm reminded very strongly of the movie, Apocalypse Now.
No indiciation of when it actually was written. Maybe he saw the movie and started believing it really was Vietnam.
http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/journal_day2.shtml
In this excerpt, he speaks of heading towards Cambodia Christmas Eve, but doesn't say he actually was there, this time. It also says it is a typewritten account from his personal journal, but is filled with areas where the word could not be made out.
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d19thdoc
PO3
Joined: 17 May 2004
Posts: 280
Location: New Jersey Shore
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| Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 4:59 am Post subject: Re: CAMBODIA SWITCH -John Hurley-V Vets For Kerry - debunkin |
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| Quote: | STARTED WITH A QUESTION ABOUT JOHN KERRY'S RECORDS
HURLEY All of John Kerry’s military records that the US Navy provided to him are on our website. It’s been there for months. They are up on the internet at our website |
As Sipowicz would say, these guys have lawyered-up. We are dealing with very cleaver - maybe too cleaver - people. What they say is true, probably, but totally irrelevant, a fact unknowable to the ordinary viewer, listener or journalist. It sounds like "he released all of his records" but look at what, exactly, it says . . .
I'm surprised the Navy had any records at all on John Kerry, or on any other Vietnam Vet. Personnel records this long after discharge are maintained by the National Archives, specifically:
National Personnel Records Center, (Military Personnel Records), 9700 Page Ave., St. Louis, MO, 63132-5100.
These are obtained by the veteran signing and submitting the Standard Form 180 ("SF 180") that John O'Neill is always referring to. Absent the veteran's own written permission, most of these records, including complete medical records, are not available due to privacy laws.
So what he says in this connection is true but beside the point - and it is intellectual dishonesty at its best.
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For The Honor of the Fifty-Eight Thousand.
"He Can Lose, But He Can Not Hide" |
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Reg
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 10:18 am Post subject: Re: CAMBODIA SWITCH -John Hurley-V Vets For Kerry - debunkin |
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| Quote: |
...Absent the veteran's own written permission, most of these records, including complete medical records, are not available due to privacy laws.
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Ok, I can understand permission for personnel records but how about the CD-11 and CD-13 "Spot Reports"? We don't need Kerry's SF 180 for those do we?
Kerry's web site has PCF-94's Feb. and March Spot reports. Interesting that the March report is not even complete for Kerry's tour. What about Nov., Dec, and Jan. for PCF-44 and PCF-94? These would cover the 12/24 Sa Dec controversy and Brinkley's forthcoming (?) "January in Cambodia" claims.
Anyone know who control's access to these records? Are they public--somewhere? |
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You GottaBeKidding
Rear Admiral
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 692
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| Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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Hardcorps posted this link last night, but it seems to have disappeared. (My search didn't find it, anyway. I was on last night and at times seemed to be the only one on, so I was definitely in the Twilight Zone.)
http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20040812-090520-8656r.htm
| Quote: | Fact and fiction
By Andrew Antippas
I was startled to read the Aug. 10 issue of the editorial page of The Washington Times concerning the assertion attributed to Sen. John Kerry that he had spent Christmas 1968 aboard his swift boat some five miles inside Cambodia and had been shot at by our Vietnamese allies, as well as the Khmer Rouge.
I would like to offer some insights and some background about the subject of Cambodia as it related to the U.S. war effort in Vietnam in that period. I served as a Foreign Service officer in the American embassy in Saigon from March 1968 to February 1970 and subsequently at the American embassy in Phnom Penh, Cambodia, from 1970 to 1972.
My job in the political section of our embassy in Saigon was to be the "Cambodia Man." My principal tasks were to follow border incidents involving U.S. forces along the Cambodian border. I worked as a liaison with U.S. forces, wrote reports to Washington, followed the intelligence about Communist use of Cambodia and, given that we did not have an embassy in Phnon Penh at that time, maintained contact with the Australian embassies in Saigon and Phnom Penh because the Australians were the U.S. protecting power in Cambodia.
I also worked with the International Control Commission (ICC) in Saigon and Phnom Penh.
The International Control Commission had been established by the Geneva Agreements of 1954 that ended the French Indochina war. The ICC had separate commission offices in the former French states of Indochina: North and South Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. The offices were to monitor their local military situations. The ICC was staffed by representatives of Canada, Poland and India. While really powerless to enforce the 1954 agreements and the ongoing IndoChina war, the four commissions were kept in place as some sort of presence on the ground. Prince Sihanouk, the head of state of Cambodia, used the ICC to chastise the United States and Republic of Vietnam vigorously and publicly for alleged border incidents. If there was a border incident, he dispatched the ICC to the site. Prince Sihanouk had broken diplomatic relations with the United States in 1965 over continuing border incidents.
With the increasing use of Cambodia by the Communists after 1965, the United States offered helicopters and communications equipment to the ICC in Phnom Penh in 1968 to help the commission do its job of locating the more than 12 Communist base areas in the technically "neutral" state of Cambodia. It should be recalled that Communist troops (VC/NVA Viet Cong/North Vietnamese) came out of the sanctuaries in the "Parrot's Beak" area of Cambodia, a mere 35 miles west of Saigon, for the Tet attacks on Saigon in January 1968. However, Prince Sihanouk, as the official host of the ICC, declined the offer of equipment, saying bluntly that the Russians would not be pleased. The Cambodians did agree in 1968 to receive U.S. intelligence about the details of Communist sanctuaries.
After Richard Nixon assumed office in 1969, Prince Sihanouk agreed to reopen the U.S. embassy, but insisted on the closure of the Phnom Penh ICC office to keep the political balance between the Communists and the United States.
During 1968, there were some 50 "incidents" along the Cambodian border involving U.S. forces. Some of these incidents involved the U.S. "Brown Water Navy." That is, the Navy Riverine Forces, which used small patrol craft such as PBRs and swift boats in the Mekong Delta and along the waterways adjacent to the Cambodian border.
I also worked with the Navy on the issue of gun-running through Cambodia. The Navy was particularly seized with the debate over whether the Vietnamese Communists were being resupplied through the "Sihanouk Trail," which was the extension of the Ho Chi Minh Trail, or by sea aboard Chinese freighters and hundred-ton steel-hulled trawlers through the port of Sihanoukville. The Johnson administration demanded proof of the CIA and Navy intelligence positions that postulated that the only way munitions of the amount being expended in South Vietnam's III and IV Corps could be resupplied was by ship. The Navy and local CIA station did a good job of making their case, but the supergrade CIA representatives and the senior State Department officials who came out from Washington to investigate the issue in October 1968 refused to accept that thesis because to do so would require the administration to put heat on Prince Sihanouk to do something about the use of Sihanoukville by the Communists.
After Prince Sihanouk's ouster in 1970, we in the embassy in Phnom Penh confirmed the assumptions by the CIA and U.S. Navy in Saigon concerning the trade through "neutral" Cambodia's port of Sihanoukville.
I worked closely with Vice Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, who was the commander of naval forces in Vietnam beginning in mid-1968 and before he moved up to become chief of naval operations in 1970. Adm. Zumwalt, unlike most senior American military, had served as an assistant naval attache in Europe as a more junior officer and knew the international political and diplomatic game. Adm. Zumwalt was politically sensitive about the activities of his Riverine units causing border incidents. There were established U.S. forces "rules of engagement" that governed the activities of American forces near the Cambodian border.
There was, for example, a "no-fly zone" along the Cambodian border, where U.S. forces ground units, aircraft and boats were prohibited from routinely approaching or entering Cambodia. I should note here that allied forces in Vietnam from Australia, New Zealand, Korea, Thailand and the Philippines were used in areas away from the border just to avoid adding diplomatic problems.
As U.S. forces in 1966 and 1967 progressively pushed the Vietnamese Communists farther and farther away from Vietnamese population centers, U.S. commanders sought permission for "hot pursuit" operations against Communist forces attacking from Cambodian territory. This always was denied, much to the military's frustration.
The Cambodians patrolled the crossing border points on the Bassac and Mekong Rivers and had fortifications above the frontier. In mid-1968, just before Adm. Zumwalt took over, a U.S. Army LCM landing craft sailing north on the Mekong River — loaded with lubricants, gas, rations, beer and a forklift, as well as a number of U.S. soldiers — missed the turn from the Mekong River to the Bassac River (the two main north-south rivers that flow through the Mekong Delta) in order to reach its destination on the southern portion of the Bassac. Apparently the troops were somewhat bemused from the heat and the beer consumed and sailed right up into Cambodia, where they were halted by a Cambodian patrol craft and taken to the frontier base and then up to Phnom Penh. Gen. Creighton Abrams, newly in command, was furious, and Adm. Zumwalt's predecessor was nonplussed, blurting out that it wasn't one of his boats.
Gen. Abrams snarled, "Yeah, it was one of mine and why did they do it?" We got the crew and LCM back eventually, but that was the only river incident involving the Cambodian border or Navy actions inside Cambodia to my recollection. There were continuing firefights along the Vinh the Canal, which is a kilometer inside the Vietnamese border and stretches straight as a shot from the Gulf of Siam to the Bassac River. The canal fronted the southern Communist base areas inside Cambodia and the Navy patrol craft frequently interdicted Communist infiltrators.
There were plenty of incidents on land in 1968 involving U.S. ground forces and aircraft along the 800-mile-plus length of the Cambodian border with Vietnam. A favorite VC/NVA tactic was to pull up next to a Cambodian military post, shoot at the Americans and then leave and let the Cambodians receive American counter-battery fire or aircraft strikes.
Finally, concerning the assertion that Mr. Kerry was shot at by the Khmer Rouge during his Christmas 1968 visit to Cambodia, it should be noted that the Khmer Rouge didn't take the field until the Easter Offensive of 1972, when the Vietnamese forces that had attacked the Cambodians initially in March 1970 pulled out of Cambodia to attack the U.S. and Vietnamese forces in Vietnam. Only Vietnamese Communist soldiers were found on the battlefields of Cambodia in 1970-72.
The bottom line of all this is that in the 15 years of active American military involvement in Vietnam and Cambodia, between 1961 and 1975, there was ongoing attention and scrutiny paid to the border because of the political sensitivities over the neutrality of the Cambodians. While things may have happened that no one ever found out about in Saigon, the Cambodians yelled bloody murder to the world press and the ICC whenever they found Americans trespassing.
Andrew Antippas served as a Foreign Service officer in the U.S. Embassy in Saigon (March 1968 to February 1970) as the "Cambodia Man" and at the U.S. Embassy in Phnom Penh, Cambodia (1970 to 1972). He spent 32 years with the State Department (1960-92). |
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Reg
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Reg wrote: |
Questions:
1. Am I wrong in the interpretation of these Spot Reports? How can I read the specific dates from the spot reports?
2. Side issue... Can anyone clear up the transfer back to CD-11 from CD-13? Was PCF-44 transfered also or just PCF-94? When?
3. Re-read the Kerry campaign statement again. Notice that it says,..."on one occasion crossed into Cambodia at the request of members of a special operations group operating out of Ha Tien." So his superior officer in CD-11 didn't give him the order to cross the Cambodian border. If true was this common for PCFs in CD-11? Is it possible for a PCF given the geogaphy for the RACH GIANG THAN/KINH VINH TE waterways? What would be the fallout if the CD-11 found out about PCFs going across the border?
4. Were these SEAL missions really clandestine or just a typical Market Time mission? Were they "classified" at a differently level?
5. Who was in overall command of the mission: the officer in charge of the SEAL team or the officer in charge of the PCF?
6. Who led PCF-50 in CD-11 during Feb. 1969?
7. If a PCF went across the border would it be in the Spot Report?
8. When is a spot report generated? Could there be multiple Spot reports for one mission? I had a feeling that I might be reading multiple spot reports for one days mission-- possible? |
Update:
Ok, here's where I am on these issues:
1. Help! Though I should note Kerry site says reports are from Feb. 12,13,14
2. According to Brinkley's "ToD" PCF-44 was transfered back to CD-11 at An Thoi (replace casualities? at An Thoi) in early Jan. 1969. Then in late Jan. (Brinkley) Kerry is moved to PCF-94 at An Thoi. Interesting the previous PCF-94 OIC Ed Peck disputes when in Jan. the transfer took place.
3. Help!
4. Help!
5. I suspect the OIC was in overall command at least concerning where his PCF goes.
6. I think its Mike Bernique. But I'm not sure.
7. Help!
8. Help!
Last edited by Reg on Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:48 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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Peck was OinC of 94 until 29 Jan 69. Alston was the forward gunner. Both were wounded on 29 Jan 69 and medevaced. Kerry took over PCF-94 no earlier than 30 Jan 69. It doesn't appear at this writing Alston served under Kerry's command at any time other than an undated photo that doesn't appear to have been taken on a Swift boat. The first action recorded for Kerry in the An Thoi AOR took place on 15 Jan 69.
Previously he and PCF-44 were assigned to COSDIV 13 commencing 13 Dec 68 at Cat Lo which is at the mouth of the Mekong River about 200 NM from An Thoi. The last note on Kerry in COSDIV 13 in Cat Lo was on the Streuli FitRip; a cable of recognition to Kerry dated 08 Jan 69. The Streui FitRep was signed and dated 28 Jan 69.
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 On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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Reg
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| ASPB wrote: |
]...The first action recorded for Kerry in the An Thoi AOR took place on 15 Jan 69. . |
COSDIV 11 "command history" highlights states on 11 Jan 69 PCFs 50, 71, 3, 44, 6, and 38 conducted a raid into Rach Hang Ho. Is it wrong? Different OIC on 44? What's your source?
When did Gardner leave PCF 44?
Any thoughts on the other questions? |
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lrb111
Captain
Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 508
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| Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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Any thoughts on the other questions?>>>>>>>
With Regards to Larry at www.swiftboats.net I downloaded the hisory page a few weeks ago. It appears that swiftboats.net may have been hacked.
Here is the info he had on PCF-94 from reports.
""""- On 29 January 1969, PCFs 5, 72, 93 and 94, together with units of COSDIV 13, conducted operations in the Cua Lon river. PCFs 72 and 94 came under fire while probing a side canal resultings in 3 USN WIA and light damage to PCF 94.""""
I maybe nuts, but i thought i saw somewhere that 94 spent a couple of days in repair, at the end of January.
If it got shot up on the 29th, then in repair on the 30, and 31, that wraps Jan.
fwiw, Kerry isn't listed on the PCF-94 on swiftboats.net. I can't offer a guess, why.
_________________
said Democratic Chairman Terry McAuliffe. "It is inexcusable to mock service and sacrifice."
well, when even the DNC can see it,,,,, then kerry is toast. |
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Reg
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| lrb111 wrote: | I maybe nuts, but i thought i saw somewhere that 94 spent a couple of days in repair, at the end of January.
If it got shot up on the 29th, then in repair on the 30, and 31, that wraps Jan.
fwiw, Kerry isn't listed on the PCF-94 on swiftboats.net. I can't offer a guess, why. |
1.On Kerry on swiftboats.net: he's listed on a totally different PCF. It maybe PCF 86 or something. No idea why. Assumed it was a mistake.
2. "That wraps up Jan." Assume your taking about Brinkley's Jan/Feb Cambodia adventure story? That's where I was going also but I'd like to know specifically what PCF 44 did during Jan'69. Yes I know three 44 shipmates say no boder crossing but I'd like to know for sure what the mission were and if they were near Cambodian border w/ SEALs. We need the Jan Spot reports. Anyone know if the are public info but just not on the Kerry website? |
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d19thdoc
PO3
Joined: 17 May 2004
Posts: 280
Location: New Jersey Shore
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| Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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Reg wrote:
| Quote: | | Ok, I can understand permission for personnel records but how about the CD-11 and CD-13 "Spot Reports"? We don't need Kerry's SF 180 for those do we? |
No.
Part of the problem for historians is that official records are not kept in any one archive.
Do NOT rely on published accounts by "historians" like Brinkley. Look to the source documents.
As far as I know, combat action reports and unit logs, sit reps, daily staff journals, spot reports and the like, are all at the National Archives II in College Park, Maryland, a Washington, D.C,. suburb. They are available for public inspection and copying. There are hardly any classification issues any longer with Nam records that would prevent total access.
I can not personally attest to security restrictions or not on special/ops records. BUT I suspect that Kerry's reliance on the SpecOps angle as a fall-back position is to cloud the issue, or provide plausible deniability.
My expertise is mainly in Army documents, but I would think the Navy docs are similar. Attached is a Spot Report from an incident I took part in in Nam. These SRs are actual carbon copies of twix's sent from Battalion HQ up the chain. In some cases, they are the actual pink tissue, sender's carbon copies torn right off the machine at time of transmission. Note "slug" at top showing NARA origin of copies. There is a lot more data in these abbreviations than might appear to the non-expert - including exact map grid coordinates of the location (BS 883 306).
http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=4134249&a=31369587&p=69177299
Further back-up evidence is a Daily Staff Journal from a sister unit. (Item #12 in left margin).
http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=4134249&a=31369587&p=69177300
This incident is also documented in a well known memoir, The Killing Zone by Frederick Downs, (Norton, 1993, pp. 66-69). So it is possible to get an incident straight-and-boxed with enough diligence.
The archivists at NARA are very user-friendly, but cannot and will not do research for you. If anyone can specify exactly what kind of report, and what date, and exactly what reportig unit, I can try to get one of the archivists to search, copy and send it to me. They have done it before, subject to the conditions of specificity mentioned. Send me a PM.
Interesting footnote: when last checked, the NIS (Naval Investigative Service) report on their investigation to validate (or not)Kerry/Fonda's "Winter Soldier Investigation" was missing from the Archives - the whole box it should have been in was missing.
If anyone goes to look at NARA II, keep your socks tight and if you see Sandy Berger in the men's room, don't be shocked if he seems to be doing funny things in his shorts.
_________________
For The Honor of the Fifty-Eight Thousand.
"He Can Lose, But He Can Not Hide" |
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Reg
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the replies. Before we go to the archives I'd like to ask a few questions:
Is anyone aware of any PCF-94 missions between 1/30/69 and 2/11/69?
In other words, was the 2/12/69 mission PCF-94's first mission under Kerry? If none, do we know why? New Crew? Repairs after Peck's 1/29/69 combat?
Also, is anyone aware of any other confirmation of a post 3/13/69 mission of PCF-94 under Kerry other than Brinkely "TofD" p324-328? |
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