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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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 Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| hist/student wrote: | I am not a expert on Chomsky at all. I have watched and listend to him make quite a few speeches on 'Democracy Now' the pacifica news program.
Much of what he says is accurate.... however allot of it is way over the top and ultimatly seemes pointed at a socialist anti american agenda. I will read up on some of his speehes.... You know he is quite Long winded |
He's actually a self-avowed anti-american communist.
_________________
 On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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hist/student
Lieutenant
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 243
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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unabashed comprehensive retraction
Last edited by hist/student on Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:00 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jeremy Eaton
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 90
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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some of Chomsky's lectures can be d/l here:
http://www.zmag.org/weluser.htm
I recommend "Understanding Power", I felt like I didn't know anything about politics until I had read it. |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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Bumping this thread so that new visitors might have easier access to the truth about the VVAW.
It was NOT only about peaceful demonstrations against the war.
They clearly toed the Communist Party line and were fed "talking points" to include in their speeches and propaganda.
And it's happening again, people! Wake up - before yet another generation of soldiers are branded as "baby killers" and "murderers."
Don't let these people make it acceptable ever again to denigrate and slander our own soldiers in our society! Our younger brothers and sisters need us to stand up for them!
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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sparky
Former Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 4:11 am Post subject: |
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Hist student says:
"I am not a expert on Chomsky at all. I have watched and listend to him make quite a few speeches on 'Democracy Now' the pacifica news program.
Much of what he says is accurate.... "
ASPB says:
"He's actually a self-avowed anti-american communist."
Hardly, ASPB. I've read half a dozen of his books and dozens of articles and he's not a communist, not anti-American and not self-avowed in either regard.
He's a libertarian socialist, the tradition known historically as anarchism, or decentralized collectivism. He's also an outspoken critic of the Soviets. Read The Managua Lectures for his warnings about the Soviets.
Man-o-man, does he criticize decisions made by our foreign policy apparatus! After all, it's a patriotic duty in a free country to speak out against activities you consider immoral and this explains why I consider it my duty to focus primarily on activities that are funded by *my* tax dollars. This includes the beheadings of Jesuits, the rapes and murders of American nuns and 500+ women and children in mass graves at El Mazote.
What people have trouble with is the reality that Chomsky detests many of our leaders and elites, but LOVES America and American values. America, after all, isn't defined by people like Henry Ford or Spiro Agnew, but rather by rock and roll, jazz, baseball, the Beach Boys, our love of liberty and right to dissent and a million other similar things that the world looks up to and holds in high regard.
Here's the skinny on this patriot and lover of American values
http://www.chomsky.info/ |
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PhuCat to Phu Quoc
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 110
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| sparky wrote: | Hist student says:
"I am not a expert on Chomsky at all. I have watched and listend to him make quite a few speeches on 'Democracy Now' the pacifica news program.
Much of what he says is accurate.... "
ASPB says:
"He's actually a self-avowed anti-american communist."
Hardly, ASPB. I've read half a dozen of his books and dozens of articles and he's not a communist, not anti-American and not self-avowed in either regard.
He's a libertarian socialist, the tradition known historically as anarchism, or decentralized collectivism. |
I've observed Chomsky for years. When Chomsky talks the socialists and communists and other Democrats listen. Chomsky's disciples are numerous on American college campuses.
Chomsky is a well-respected intellectual and that's fine for people that get starry eyed over intellectuals, I don't.
I remind Sparky that a communist is a socialist in a hurry, and I think it was a Bolshevik that said that, or maybe Lenin, or Stalin, but no matter, when you can't kill with one massive blow, you can slay with a thousand cuts.
Chomsky also was an early apologist for Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge, displaying the same mixture of academic hubris and naivete that allowed John Kerry to tell a Congressional hearing that the Vietnamese communists would only target a few thousand for liquidation at most, the numbers actually ran into the millions.
Perhaps it was the "decentralized collectivism" tendency that Sparky attributes to Chomsky, that attracted Chomsky to the quaint agrarian reformers known as Khmer Rouge. Chomsky wears eyeglasses, and the grisly memorials to Khmer Rouge murders include piles of eyeglasses along with the mountains of skulls.
Chomsky's mental four-wheel drive just gets him stuck deeper in the woods, and like most of his fellow Ivory Tower intellectuals, I don't think Chomsky could pour pis out of a boot with the directions written on the heel.
_________________
I'm a U.S. Navy Vietnam War vet against John Kerry
Phu Cat to Phu Quoc 1969-1970
Did Jane Fonda help the North Vietnamese communists?
http://vikingphoenix.com/politics/polls/jfondapoll-1.htm |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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Libertarian Socialist? thats one great oxymoron!
Free to do anything you want in a country where everything is owned and controlled by the state including your means of surviving. 
Classic Ivory Tower doublespeak. Doesn't matter if the plebians don't understand it's oxymoronic, they're just impressed by big words they've never heard before.....Kinda like Sparky, methinks.
_________________
On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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PhuCat to Phu Quoc
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 110
Location: California
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| ASPB wrote: | Libertarian Socialist? thats one great oxymoron!
Free to do anything you want in a country where everything is owned and controlled by the state including your means of surviving.
Classic Ivory Tower doublespeak. Doesn't matter if the plebians don't understand it's oxymoronic, they're just impressed by big words they've never heard before.....Kinda like Sparky, methinks. |
Excellent ASPB!!  .
And then we have the neoconservatives (neocons), the anarcho-syndicalists, paleo-libertarians, etc., etc., etc., -- ideas that policy wonks are so busy sorting out that they are unable to pour pis out of that boot with the directions written on the heel.
_________________
I'm a U.S. Navy Vietnam War vet against John Kerry
Phu Cat to Phu Quoc 1969-1970
Did Jane Fonda help the North Vietnamese communists?
http://vikingphoenix.com/politics/polls/jfondapoll-1.htm |
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Jeremy Eaton
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 90
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| Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| ASPB wrote: | Libertarian Socialist? thats one great oxymoron!
Free to do anything you want in a country where everything is owned and controlled by the state including your means of surviving.
Classic Ivory Tower doublespeak. Doesn't matter if the plebians don't understand it's oxymoronic, they're just impressed by big words they've never heard before.....Kinda like Sparky, methinks. |
Ha!
Well, YOU worry about state control. I worry about corporate control. That is a lot what Chomsky is about for me. He helped me understand how democracy is manufactured. I'd like to hear your feelings about that! |
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hist/student
Lieutenant
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 243
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| Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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unabashed comprehensive retraction
Last edited by hist/student on Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:00 am; edited 1 time in total |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| PhuCat to Phu Quoc wrote: |
Chomsky also was an early apologist for Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge, displaying the same mixture of academic hubris and naivete that allowed John Kerry to tell a Congressional hearing that the Vietnamese communists would only target a few thousand for liquidation at most, the numbers actually ran into the millions.
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Wait a minute -- are you saying that millions of Vietnamese were killed after 1975? Maybe I'm reading omething that isn't there, but if that's what you mean, there's no way it's correct.
Now if you're talking about Cambodia, then yes.
Doug |
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hist/student
Lieutenant
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 243
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| Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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unabashed comprehensive retraction
Last edited by hist/student on Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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PhuCat to Phu Quoc
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 110
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| DougReese wrote: | | PhuCat to Phu Quoc wrote: |
Chomsky also was an early apologist for Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge, displaying the same mixture of academic hubris and naivete that allowed John Kerry to tell a Congressional hearing that the Vietnamese communists would only target a few thousand for liquidation at most, the numbers actually ran into the millions.
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Wait a minute -- are you saying that millions of Vietnamese were killed after 1975? Maybe I'm reading omething that isn't there, but if that's what you mean, there's no way it's correct.
Now if you're talking about Cambodia, then yes.
Doug |
That's why I wrote "target".
I do not have the estimated numbers for actual liquidation deaths in Vietnam, but I expect the record certainly exceeds the optimistic number predicted by John Kerry in testimony to Congress.
Total deaths by communist fiat in Southeast Asia following the collapse of U.S. support achieved by John Kerry and the "antiwar" activists, yes, in the millions, by far.
I recall that Kerry told Congress (about 1971), that 2,000-3,000 South Vietnamese would need sanctuary when the U.S. pulled the plug.
As far as Vietnam is concerned in Kerry's sunny self-serving predictions; that were eagerly swallowed by many members of Congress; besides those summarily killed, the Vietnamese communists also sent thousands to be reeducated, many of those starved, beaten, tortured, murdered, died of medical neglect to disappear forever, and thousands more became refugees.
Clearly, John Kerry's efforts helped make it possible for the Vietnamese communists to murder, imprison, and make refugees of thousands upon thousands of Vietnamese and still they persecute thousands more.
The communists are grateful to Kerry for his efforts on their behalf. Photos of Kerry and other disloyal "antiwar" Americans such as Jane Fonda now adorn the walls of a Saigon museum.
There are other kinds of persecution in Vietnam now resulting from John Kerry's perfidy. I cite:
"Senator Kerry has evidently sent the wrong message to the Vietnamese dictators: they can persecute their own people with impunity and still count on a powerful U.S. senator to shield them from any U.S. criticisms or sanctions" - Helen Ngo, chairwoman of the Washington D.C.-based Committee for Religious Freedom in Vietnam, in AP story, August 19, 2002.
And then there are the various Montagnards, and the Hmong that helped the U.S.; now fixed in the deadly gaze of Hanoi's hatred for them.
_________________
I'm a U.S. Navy Vietnam War vet against John Kerry
Phu Cat to Phu Quoc 1969-1970
Did Jane Fonda help the North Vietnamese communists?
http://vikingphoenix.com/politics/polls/jfondapoll-1.htm |
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PhuCat to Phu Quoc
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 110
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| DougReese wrote: | | PhuCat to Phu Quoc wrote: |
Chomsky also was an early apologist for Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge, displaying the same mixture of academic hubris and naivete that allowed John Kerry to tell a Congressional hearing that the Vietnamese communists would only target a few thousand for liquidation at most, the numbers actually ran into the millions.
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Wait a minute -- are you saying that millions of Vietnamese were killed after 1975? Maybe I'm reading omething that isn't there, but if that's what you mean, there's no way it's correct.
Now if you're talking about Cambodia, then yes.
Doug |
When it comes to the final tally of Vietnamese dead credited to John Kerry and the "antiwar" activists, we are not finished counting.
I cite the examples of the communist's continued persecution of the religious in Vietnam, and the continued murderous persecution of ethnic minorities such as the various Montagnard tribes, that is a continuing tally. Last time I heard from Tommy Daniels, for Montagnards that flee to Cambodia, the Cambodian authorities return them (wink, wink) to Vietnam to face this death penalty offense of running from persecution.
Also not finished counting, deaths by disappearance of Vietnamese assigned reeducation camps, deaths by disappearance of fleeing refugees, also lives shortened in reeducation camps.
Should this approach be disputed, consider that John Kerry recently involved himself in the effort to add to "The Wall", the name of a deceased Vietnam War veteran that did not die in Vietnam, but instead, succumbed recently to war related injuries.
Also, see my previous answer.
_________________
I'm a U.S. Navy Vietnam War vet against John Kerry
Phu Cat to Phu Quoc 1969-1970
Did Jane Fonda help the North Vietnamese communists?
http://vikingphoenix.com/politics/polls/jfondapoll-1.htm |
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NoDonkey
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 02 Jun 2004
Posts: 78
Location: Arlington, VA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| hist/student wrote: | Mr Eaton, to begin with if you look at the huge protests in Euorpe and some of the protests in Baghdad itself (earlier in the war) you may (if willing) notice a predomenance of huge red flags and banners.
I only have my expeirence (personal from inadvertantly walking into one of these groups with the big beautifull red flag) that these are communist orginized and financed protests. They are willing to let anybody who wishes join them as their goal is to have the largest population possable on the ground for Propaganda effects. Street theater.
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I observed one of the ANSWER rallies on Pennsylvania in the District last summer.
Most definitely saw the red banners. What's interesting is that they've allied themselves with the anarchists as the Communist/Anarchist alliance (complete with red/black flags).
Their goal is to smash the capitalist state together, then to fight over what's next.
They really seemed to me to be a bunch of rich, white, self-obsessed college students who will be embarrassed about their activities someday, but there is no doubt that ANSWER (which is a communist front org) encourages and funds these types of people.
We need to get the Grateful Dead back together and give these people some meaning to their lives . . .
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"Liberalism is totalitarianism with a human face." - Thomas Sowell |
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