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Craig
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 Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| fortdixlover wrote: | | sparky wrote: | Not true. The abuses continued right up to the widespread media portrayals even though the Red Cross had alerted top DOD officials over a year earlier.
It was a whistleblower whose actions finally brought results instead of more sweeping the matter under the rug. |
Sparky,
The above is quite debatable. The left wing media is biased, and I don't see you in Iraq right now getting direct information.
In any case, do you condemn what Saddam's henchmen and regime did, or don't you?
If within 24 hours of reading this post, we don't see your condemnation and apology for Saddam's abuses, you will be considered as either agreeing with them, or not caring about fellow human beings who happen to be Iraqi Arabs.
Or are the mass graves a right-wing fraud in your mind?
We really want to know. |
Is it your contention that one must express condemnation of the greater evil of Saddam before they be allowed to express critical of the side one identifies being ones own?
Don't really need discuss a lot about condemning Saddam anyway. US went to war with him and I suppose he will be on trial eventually if he survives so long.
My own self was outraged at both Saddam and US support of him well before any invasion of Kuwait. But I feel no need to jump through your hoops to say so at your demand when I would be critical of my own government or military involving in impropriety.
So what will you have if sparky does respond to give you what you want of your retard challenge? You will just continue to ***** about something else.
And don't forget that it was Daddy Bush who encouraged them people to raise against Saddam while he left Saddam full means to slaughter those who Bush suckered into thinking that they might get a little US support.
Seems to me that there should be some responsibility on the part of one who would instigate to creating the fill for some of those mass graves. |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
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Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| sparky wrote: | Not true. The abuses continued right up to the widespread media portrayals even though the Red Cross had alerted top DOD officials over a year earlier.
It was a whistleblower whose actions finally brought results instead of more sweeping the matter under the rug.
Rumsfeld should resign and all top Bush administration officials with any knowledge of these abuses should be tried in The Hague.
And I hope I don't have to say this again, but these abuses are not lessened simply because Saddam's abuses were "worse." We need to demonstrate to the world that we're better than Saddam and sadly, the world isn't convinced of this. A good start would be for people like Rush Limbaugh to apologize for his remarks that the abuse was similar to fraternity hazing (there were numerous murders as we're finding out). |
You're lying.
AGAIN.
"The abuses are not lessened simply because Saddam's abuses were "worse?" " WTF does that even MEAN?
The abuses never WERE as bad as Saddam Hussein's to begin with - much as Teddy-boy would like to have you thinking they were.
Almost any military person or veteran in the country will tell you that what our soldiers did was deplorable. But, we also know that they were in the minority, and that the vast majority of our soldiers treat criminals and detainees humanely, so we're tired of having Abu Ghraib held up as the worst atrocities ever committed in the history of war. PERSPECTIVE.
Read that slowly, sparky.
You are transparent in your hatred - you are forgetting to be subtle in your twisting and lying. Go back to your Kerry-coach and get those pointers solidly back into your rhetoric.
You are fast becoming one of those dim bulbs whose posts merit only laughter in response.
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother
Last edited by Navy_Navy_Navy on Fri Aug 13, 2004 8:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ROTC DAD
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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N_N_N,
He's not lying. The Abu Ghraib photos which wer published by the WP came from the father of one of the soldiers at the prison who was afraid his son would be scape-goated when the scandal broke.
You may not agree with his conclusions, but you cannot legitimately claim he is lying. |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
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Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| ROTC DAD wrote: | N_N_N,
He's not lying. The Abu Ghraib photos which wer published by the WP came from the father of one of the soldiers at the prison who was afraid his son would be scape-goated when the scandal broke.
You may not agree with his conclusions, but you cannot legitimately claim he is lying. |
The Abu Ghraib photos were published by the Washington Post LONG AFTER the military had begun investigating and punishing the wrong-doers.
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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ROTC DAD
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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N_N_N,
Unofrtunately, that's not true. The perpetrators were re-assigned, but all that happened before the photos came out was Taguba's investigation and report, which neither Rumsfeld nor Myers deemed important enough to read even after they were warned that a story would be breaking about abuses at Abu Ghraib prison.
More than that, there seems to be culpability at many different levels within the military and civilian sectors as no action was taken even when members of the chain of command were apprised of the situation by outside observers such as the IRC.
Nor does it appear that it was limited to one prison. It appears to be systemic. |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| ROTC DAD wrote: | N_N_N,
Unofrtunately, that's not true. The perpetrators were re-assigned, but all that happened before the photos came out was Taguba's investigation and report, which neither Rumsfeld nor Myers deemed important enough to read even after they were warned that a story would be breaking about abuses at Abu Ghraib prison.
More than that, there seems to be culpability at many different levels within the military and civilian sectors as no action was taken even when members of the chain of command were apprised of the situation by outside observers such as the IRC.
Nor does it appear that it was limited to one prison. It appears to be systemic. |
Sorry, I'll take GEN Myers and SECDEF Rumfeld's versions of the timeline before I'll take yours or sparky's.
Watch the Senate grillings of Pentagon leadership - the investigations began two days after SPC Darby provided a copy of a CD with pictures to someone in his chain of command. (Back in January)
When were the pictures printed in the Washington Post? I forget. 
The same family who contacted Hackworth also contacted 16 Senators, many of whom were on the Senate Armed Forces committee.
The four most obnoxious questioners of Myers and Rumsfeld were notified PERSONALLY by this soldiers family back in February that this stuff was going on. Reed and Dayton, Clinton and Kennedy - the harshest critics, but they had received noticed from the family of this soldier long before any of this was public, and a month after the investigations had begun.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/5/11/112439.shtml (Yeah, newsmax - as first reported on msnbc)
Not one of them responded. Not one of them requested clarification from the Pentagon or passed the information on to their committee.
Oh, and saying that it's systemic doesn't make it so. There were three prisons and several thousand troops under Karpinski's command. Why are there no abuses reported under her other two prisons - none outside that one wing at Abu Ghraib?
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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Craig
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fortdixlover
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 1476
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Craig wrote: |
Is it your contention that one must express condemnation of the greater evil of Saddam before they be allowed to express critical of the side one identifies being ones own? |
Sir,
It is my contention that leftists such as yourself simply do not care about the evil of Saddam or the fate of his hundreds of thousands of victims, and that you and your cohorts are not manly enough to admit to your own sadism and gratification at the suffering of others, especially third-world Arabs and their innocent children. Because you sir, are, ultimately a racist and a pervert.
Through your actions and those of your ilk, you are encouraging and indeed facilitating a premature U.S. withdrawal from Iraq, which will result in mass slaughter of more innocent civilians by Baathist thugs and their imported assassins, and likely horrors here at home that will make 9/11 look like a picnic. You are clearly looking forward to this in addition to reveling in a defeat for America.
You not only suffer from moral turpitude, but are also traitors. And not just garden variety traitors, but arrogant and brazen traitors who have the nerve to stand before a forum of U.S. military and ex-military personnel with these statements, before people who actually had the courage to do something useful in defense of their homeland, unlike parasites like yourself who do nothing all day but whine.
That, sir, is my contention. Any questions?
Best,
FDL |
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Craig
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| fortdixlover wrote: | | Craig wrote: |
Is it your contention that one must express condemnation of the greater evil of Saddam before they be allowed to express critical of the side one identifies being ones own? |
Sir,
It is my contention that leftists such as yourself simply do not care about the evil of Saddam or the fate of his hundreds of thousands of victims, and that you and your cohorts are not manly enough to admit to your own sadism and gratification at the suffering of others, especially third-world Arabs and their innocent children. Because you sir, are, ultimately a racist and a pervert.
Through your actions and those of your ilk, you are encouraging and indeed facilitating a premature U.S. withdrawal from Iraq, which will result in mass slaughter of more innocent civilians by Baathist thugs and their imported assassins, and likely horrors here at home that will make 9/11 look like a picnic. You are clearly looking forward to this in addition to reveling in a defeat for America.
You not only suffer from moral turpitude, but are also traitors. And not just garden variety traitors, but arrogant and brazen traitors who have the nerve to stand before a forum of U.S. military and ex-military personnel with these statements, before people who actually had the courage to do something useful in defense of their homeland, unlike parasites like yourself who do nothing all day but whine.
That, sir, is my contention. Any questions?
Best,
FDL |
Nope. No questions. You are clearly making accusations as a malicious fool might.
As for military - I would suppose the Administrator to delete my posts from the vets only group if he is not satisfied with the evidence of service I sent him. - something more difficult to forge than a DD-214
I looked again through your crap and found nothing at all to be accurate.
I don't believe even Kerry advocates premature witdrawal (as you so freudianly put it  )
I was opposed to premature attack being done by fools, but now that things are as they are I would hope that a different administration can make the best of the damage done.
Hell, I was way infavor of attacking Afghanistan and it had to be done immediate. I just regretted who it was up to doing it. As it is Afghanistan is certainly a shining example of US being good for its word and if incredible incompetence.
Oh well, your carrying on is just flatulence coming from what such things come from. One should not even bother to address what amounts to a brat having a tantrum fit and making bad noise. |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2004 11:22 pm Post subject: Wish I had written this - I am not fooled! |
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A Soldier's Father Speaks Out
An open letter to some political partisans, especially certain politicians and people in the media: I have a son who is an American soldier in Iraq.
I care very much about what affects him and his comrades in arms.
I am not fooled, when you partisans spew propaganda that helps our enemies and harms our soldiers, then tell us you support our troops.
I am not fooled, when you focus on, highlight, and exaggerate the negative things that happen in Iraq, while ignoring our positive accomplishments, then tell us you support our troops.
I am not fooled, when you focus attention on American soldiers killed and wounded in Iraq, to use these brave patriots as an anti-Iraq-war political football, then tell us you support our troops.
I am not fooled, when you keep criticizing why and how we invaded Iraq - that is done; our troops are there - then tell us you support our troops.
I am not fooled, when you engage in constant, carping criticism of what the U.S. has done and is doing in Iraq, then tell us you support our troops.
I am not fooled, when you search for and trumpet to the world anything that will diminish respect for our soldiers and their leaders - even when it endangers greatly their lives, then tell us you support our troops.
I am not fooled, when you tell our soldiers and the rest of us that they are stuck in a "quagmire" and will suffer a Vietnam-type defeat, then tell us you support our troops.
I am not fooled, when you spout propaganda that undermines the morale of our soldiers and the American public and boosts the morale of our enemies, then tell us you support our troops.
You are giving aid and comfort to our nation's deadly enemies! They know they cannot defeat us militarily in Iraq. However, you cause them to think they can win here politically by breaking our will, if they kill and wound enough of our soldiers.
You despicable partisans! You are stimulating our enemies to attack our soldiers and the people working with them. The blood of many Americans and Iraqis is already on your hands. And your hands collect more blood every day!
You are determined to regain the political power you have lost, and you believe your presidential candidate and congressional candidates will win, if the U.S. fails in Iraq.
If your anti-American propaganda contributes to the deaths of many Americans and Iraqis, that is a price you are willing to make them pay. You are pathetic and dangerous!
I am not fooled, when you contemptible politicians and other political partisans, including many in the media, tell us you support our troops. I know that is a lie!
I am not fooled, when you claim spreading your pernicious, divisive, anti-American venom makes you patriotic.
I know it does not - and I know you are not!
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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Grampa
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 143
Location: Eureka, CA
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 12:53 am Post subject: |
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"Not true. The abuses continued right up to the widespread media portrayals even though the Red Cross had alerted top DOD officials over a year earlier." -sparky
No. This is WRONG! I will remain civil and not call sparky a liar, because he doesn't know any better.
I was there.
I was there from September 2003 thru March 2004 in Abu Ghuraib prison. There's about 4 different spellings for the place. We were under the 320th MP BN, 800th MP BDE. The 372d was a fellow Company under the 320th. The photos were first turned into Criminal Investigation Division - CID back in December 2003 by a SPC who knew that what was going on was wrong.
They initiated an investigation. We began hearing rumblings thru rumour control about it around the first of the year. Then in January, the AR 15-6 investigation was initiated and the BN Commander was suspended, the soldiers were removed from duty and put under house arrest pending completion of the investigation. This was reported on the news networks as "an invesigation into alleged prisoner abuses at Abu Ghuraib prison" in early February. By that time, we had all heard the stories of what the abuse had been thru rumour control and it was verified by the CoC in a staff briefing. It had actually been in Stars and Stripes that 6 were being charged and all the reliefs for cause of the BC, BN CSM, Ops SMG and the S3, as well as BG Karpinski and some of her staff. That was in late March, just before we came home. The pictures didn't show up on the news until mid April, shortly after I got home for good and the soldiers who did it had been in custody for 2 months.
So much for 60 Minutes.
Fortunately, the 16th MP Bde (ABN) showed up to take the 800ths place, so the transition of units going back home wasn't affected by the turmoil. We all remain thoroughly disgusted by what those MPs did. We WANT them in jail. They smeared every MP with their actions.
The troops who released those photo's are simply playing the press for sympathy by crying about how their being scapegoated by big Army bullies. The pictures gave them the visuals to shock the nation. Its a PR job by soldiers that do not want to take responsibility for their own actions, especially the weird sex crap. The press is using it to their own ends so they REALLY pump it up.
One can beleive taking their clothes and sleep deprivation; those are pychological ploys to break their spirit. But all that sex stuff? That was them being their freaky selves. The fact that one lowly young E-4 knew that what they were doing was wrong and reported it invalidates every "We were just following orders" excuse those douchebags have deployed. That E-6 - I cannot call him an NCO or a Sergeant - who is trying to pass himself off as a victim has a history of abusive behavior both at his prison job and at his home.
They are answering for it now.
So, dont come on this board motivated by your Bush hate and spread misinformation. Hopefully this teaching moment will enable you to recognize that just because the "story" supports your leftwing bias, doesn't mean it's the truth.
_________________
Iraqi Freedom 2003-2004. We won't take any of that 1960s crap when We come home! |
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Marine4life
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 591
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 2:03 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Craig"]
Wounded that show any sign of life are subject to be blown to scattered pieces of meat that glow in the sight of the killers who show a bit more excitement than just some calm business like demeanor - but rather excitement at the killing they can do from afar.
And any American who has had his house searched because he was under suspicion can tell how a whole lot of @*$! that he owned was maliciously destroyed in the search. - @*$!! I can testify to that just about a thousand or so dollars worth of rough opals that the cops spread about the yard such that I was finding some my mother missed some five years later.
First point, isn't that what Kerry got the bronze star for, killing the wounded.
Second point, did I read somewhere that you did time for a felony, admitted by you? If so then my 13 years in law enforcement tells me that you lost your right to vote. Just an observation but if that is true then it's mind over matter. We don't mind and you don't matter.
_________________
Helicopter Marine Attack Squadron 169 which is now HMLA-169. They added Huey's to compliment the Cobra effectiveness. When I served we just had Snakes. |
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Scott
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 1603
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 2:50 am Post subject: |
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| sparky wrote: | ...all top Bush administration officials with any knowledge of these abuses should be tried in The Hague.
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Careful, Sparky; even you could be convicted in The Hague.
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sparky
Former Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | It is my contention that leftists such as yourself simply do not care about the evil of Saddam or the fate of his hundreds of thousands of victims, and that you and your cohorts are not manly enough to admit to your own sadism and gratification at the suffering of others, especially third-world Arabs and their innocent children. Because you sir, are, ultimately a racist and a pervert. |
And
| Quote: | | In any case, do you condemn what Saddam's henchmen and regime did, or don't you? |
I first spoke out against Saddam Hussen in 1987 when I was a human rights activist at college. His crimes were well known among "lefties" since the rightwing only cares about human rights violations when our enemies commit them (at that time, it was only Soviet Bloc crimes that they cared about and all others by US allies were naturally denied, including the decapitation of Jesuits or raping of nuns).
Sure I condemn Saddam's crimes. I've been condemning them for almost twenty years. I condemned the gassing of the Kurds. I condemned his torture chambers and the fear his people lived under.
And I also condemn Rumsfeld's visit which was intended to solidify good relations and trade with America, which looked the other way during the Bush years. US taxpayers lost $2 billion in aid to Saddam after he gassed the Kurds.
I condemn any instance when human rights is ignored because of profit or temporary geopoligical advantage, including Brent Scowcroft's famous toast to good relations with the butchers of Tianenmen.
I condemn any instance when concern for human rights is just a tool to manipulate the public. I believe that's what's happening in Iraq now since the WMD argument for invasion, as well as the Al Qaeda link are now universally known as frauds.
All that's left is Saddam's human rights record, which didn't matter until it became a useful propaganda tool and the last supposed reason to invade. |
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Scott
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 1603
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 3:21 am Post subject: |
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Sparky:
You've given a legitimate reason for your position re: Saddam's crimes.
My question: Is it valid to say that countries have allies, not friends? In diplomacy, is it not necessary sometimes (e.g. Iran vs. Iraq) to accept the lesser evil? Or are you saying that this country cannot support any government that does not adhere to our standards of morality and behavior?
Because, if you do, I can't think of a single country on this Earth that allows its citizens the same freedom of morality and behavior that we enjoy.
BTW, Will Rodgers' definition of Diplomacy was "...Saying 'Nice doggie' while you grope for a rock." On the other hand, you may not remember him. Never mind. |
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