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Swift Boat Veterans Refuse to Open Their Own Records.
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lost1112
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Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hesiod
while it is true the folks here are in faxct attacking kerry's military record and you feel that they should release there records or as you put it shut up well sir as a vet i am calling you to the same. you claim that these folks are trying to discredit kerry and are in fact for bush while at the same time you are in fact trying to do the same thing just for kerry instead so you sir diclose your military records if you have any or just shut up!!!!!!!!! god I hate bleeding heart libs and all there holler than thou crap
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Craig
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
rbshirley



Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 4


You sir, are as despicable as Wade Sanders, Kerry designated hit man for
activities associated with Swift Boat sailors: If we cannot silence them or
respond to their opinions, use whatever outrageous claims that can be made
to discredit them ... seems to be the strategy of the Kerry campaign
==========================================
I am trying to get a feel for what is allowable and what violates the precepts of propriety of this BB.
What sort of ad hominem is considered improper in relation to "Flaming and comments that invite flames are not welcome" as I was told?

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Hesiod
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Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lost1112 wrote:
Hesiod
while it is true the folks here are in faxct attacking kerry's military record and you feel that they should release there records or as you put it shut up well sir as a vet i am calling you to the same. you claim that these folks are trying to discredit kerry and are in fact for bush while at the same time you are in fact trying to do the same thing just for kerry instead so you sir diclose your military records if you have any or just shut up!!!!!!!!! god I hate bleeding heart libs and all there holler than thou crap


I don't have any military records to disclose. And even if I did, I'm not holding press conferences using my military service as a means to give my attacks on, say, George W. Bush credibility, or claim that Bush is lying about what I did when I served.

It's a simple matter really. They are trading on their military service to attack Kerry. Fine.

Then their expectation of privacy in their own military records is forfeit.

But, being the partisan hacks they are, none of them will release their military files.

That makes them hypocrites, and as many of us have shown a number of them are quite probably liars as well.

As for my supposed bleeding heart, you'll find I am quite cold blooded when it comes to eviscerating and destroying rightwing loony-toon arguments and myths.

I have no sympathy or empathy for liars, or wackos.

So...if people want to have a fair and honest fact-based discussion about the Presidential election, I'm ready and willing. If they want to continue smearing John Kerry...then I'm going to torch their lies incessantly.

Capice?

So, play fair....or lose dirty.
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Hesiod
Former Member


Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 2:28 am    Post subject: Re: Swift Boat veteran's records Reply with quote

rbshirley wrote:
["Louielouie"]
Quote:
If they refuse to release their own records,
it calls into question their truthfulness.


Obviously Louielouie overllooked the poignant scene of Joe Ponder struggling
to get to the podium at the news conference on his crutches. He lost a leg
while on a mission in the delta rivers opposite Kerry

Release his records? Question his truthfulness? Both were there for all to see.

You sir, are as despicable as Wade Sanders, Kerry designated hit man for
activities associated with Swift Boat sailors: If we cannot silence them or
respond to their opinions, use whatever outrageous claims that can be made
to discredit them ... seems to be the strategy of the Kerry campaign

Theresa Heinz escalated this campaign mud slinging Friday by calling her
husband's opponents "unpatriotic" for raising questions about Kerry's
Vietnam service. Swift Boat Veterans for Truth have absolutely NO ties to
the Republican campaign ... as stated repeatedly ... and NO ONE in the
Bush campaign has EVER questioned Kerry's service while IN Vietnam.

But his activities AFTER he returned, having completed only one-third of his
obligation, IS in question: Meeting with representaives of the North Vietnamese
enemy, and then starting a media blitz, the core of which was that ALL US soldiers
in Vietnam were "war ciminals" ... using allegations which have NEVER been
substantiated. He even had the poor judgement to suggest to Congress that
they adopt, point by point, the North Vietnamese terms for surrender.

Stick THAT in your call for records and truthfulness Louielouie
.


Yet more straw men.

No one is trying to silence anyone. If a bunch of rightwing Veterans wants to get up to a podium and smear a fellow veteran for partisan political reasons, they have every right to do so, unfortunately.

Of course, what you are complaining about is that defenders of Senator Kerry are not letting you all get away with the smearing.

Your OPINIONS have been refuted with facts over and over again by a number of posters on this bulletin board. And, in response, we get called "bleeding hearts," and all sort of other names.

Kerry gets accused of being a North Vietnamese agent, or some such.

All without a shred of evidence other than your own diseased and paranoid brains.

What causes such hate to rise up in individuals, I cannot understand. All rational thought gets flushed down the toilet.

So, here's my pledge. You debate civilly, and so will I. Use facts. Use logic. Use calm rational arguments.

Maybe we'll both learn something.

If not...then bring it on.

I will beat you to a rhetorical pulp if you continue lying.

Got it?

This isn't the Free Republic message board where people who post the truth get blocked by the moderator. Not yet anyway.

I wonder how long that will last.
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sparky
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Posts: 546

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well said! One of them earlier said that Bush critics here must be from the Kerry campaign.

It's flattering, yes, but more a reflection of their not having posted in conferences that have an open forum and aren't controlled by some authority. They're simply not used to having their thoughts challenged or run through a logical wringer.
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Hesiod
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Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 2:39 am    Post subject: Not from the Kerry campaign... Reply with quote

sparky wrote:
Well said! One of them earlier said that Bush critics here must be from the Kerry campaign.

It's flattering, yes, but more a reflection of their not having posted in conferences that have an open forum and aren't controlled by some authority. They're simply not used to having their thoughts challenged or run through a logical wringer.


Just shows you how much people are motivated to prevent this kind of smear tactic from being used against Kerry like they used it against Al Gore and Bill Clinton.

We ain't your father's bleeding heart liberals. We're butt kickers who won't back down, and will fight until they lose. Which will be very, very soon.
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creeksneakers2
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Joined: 09 May 2004
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The perpetrators of the RW smear need to be examined in depth. We already know they had a fake doctor telling lies about Kerry's wounds. The whole thing is fake. They give you the impression that they know something being hidden about Kerry's service in Vietnam when in fact all they are complaining about is what Kerry said 30 years ago. I think we need to see all their records. The RWs have decided service in Vietnam doesn't count unless someone was wounded sufficiently, so anybody who makes claims here better be checked.
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pcf18
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Joined: 09 May 2004
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Location: Rapid City, South Dakota

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can not believe that somebody would want a regular Swifties military record. The Swifty is not runnung for office. They may see mine anytime they want. I hve nothing to hide and have not told the lies that Kerry has.
I rode Swifts and seen as much and probably more action that Kerry and I do not make myself out to be a hero.
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Craig
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pcf18 wrote:
I can not believe that somebody would want a regular Swifties military record. The Swifty is not runnung for office. They may see mine anytime they want. I hve nothing to hide and have not told the lies that Kerry has.
I rode Swifts and seen as much and probably more action that Kerry and I do not make myself out to be a hero.

I post under my own name. Craig Lorin Kling if anyone wishes to check.
What is your name and where is them records that you offer that anyone might see any time they want?
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sparky
Former Member


Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's first clarify that Kerry has fully released all but his medical records and those were inspected and reported on by 19 journalists. Bush provided a similar inspection of his medical records, but still hasn't released the rest of his military records.

That being said, the GOP operatives running this site should put their own privacy up for public scrutiny if they want the same from Kerry. Now that they've made themselves public figures it's the least they can do to show that their request is reasonable.

Quote:
give you the impression that they know something being hidden about Kerry's service in Vietnam


Right-on! That's the whole point...try to create doubt and suspicions. Reminds me of that horrific campaign to make the public think Vince Foster was murdered by Hillary or that Bill Clinton fathered a love child from a prostitute. These people have no shame and they think the public is full of suckers.
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Navy_Navy_Navy
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Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

creeksneakers2 wrote:
The perpetrators of the RW smear need to be examined in depth. We already know they had a fake doctor telling lies about Kerry's wounds.


Objection! Facts not in evidence!

Quote:
They give you the impression that they know something being hidden about Kerry's service in Vietnam when in fact all they are complaining about is what Kerry said 30 years ago.


Objection! Misstates the record!

Quote:
The RWs have decided service in Vietnam doesn't count unless someone was wounded sufficiently, so anybody who makes claims here better be checked.


Objection! Facts not in evidence! Misstates the record!

Your honor, I move for a dismissal as the complainant is clearly off his rocker or off his meds.

I notice he doesn't have his tinfoil hat on too tight, either.

Wink
_________________
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Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
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shoebowl
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Joined: 08 May 2004
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Location: Milwaukee, WI

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 5:33 am    Post subject: To Hediod Reply with quote

You're so full of crap. One must understand that applying for the leading job in the land has it's scrutiny. I don't for one second agree with you that they have the obligation to open their records. I am simply amazed that you find this important.

What they did was honorable and beyond your scrutiny sir, what John F. Kerry did is open to debate. Because you think this is timely, doesn't make for an excuse. If it had come AFTER he was elected, I'd have wondered about thier credibility. I thank God that somebody found the courage to stand up and say "no".

If you think comparing records of one vet to another is worthwhile, you're not "in it" sir. Take the time to consider what you're thinking and then get back to the vets.

Semper Fidelis,
Don
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sparky
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Posts: 546

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You flatter yourself NNN if you fancy that this is a court of law. It's the court of public opinion and the points mentioned above are right on the money.

You can't have it both ways by trying to smear Kerry and then when we say you're trying to smear Kerry claim that "facts not in evidence."

This whole discussion is just a smear-job about someone who earned his purple hearts and with his many other decorations is a true military hero. His protest of that awful war show him also to be a true patriot.

It reminds me of someone who claims Clinton fathered a child with a prostitute or that Clinton had people murdered in his cocaine smuggling operation and when we say he's trying to smear Clinton cries out "Facts not in evidence!"
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Navy_Navy_Navy
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sparky wrote:
You flatter yourself NNN if you fancy that this is a court of law.


EDIT
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Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
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eecee
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Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 52

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 6:26 am    Post subject: Re: Records Reply with quote

Hesiod wrote:

They aren't running for the highest office in the land, to be sure. But they are attacking someone who is. And they are basing THEIR attack on their own "credibility" as Swift Boat veterans. Moreover, they pronounced Kerry "unfit" for the office of President by virtue, among other things, of his supposed "lies" about Vietnam veterans.

Therefore, THEIR records are now at issue. If they say Kerry is lying about them, then prove it. Open up your files, or forever hold your peace.

Especially since they have the hypocritical gall to ask Kerry to open up his files (which he has done).

I'm not saying Kerry shouldn't have opened up his files. I'm saying that people who make claims like these folks have, ought to back it up with something. Especially since almost none of them said diddly squat about Kerry until he was beating Bush in the head to head polling and Kerry unveiled his big advertising campaign. (Suddenly they all got religion!) If they were so concerned, why didn't they say something during the primary when it could have elevated someone else to the Democratic nomination?

Sounds like a partisan sandbagging job to me. Not the work of honorable gentlemen.






I certainly think Roy Hoffman should release ALL of his military records. I have no doubt they would be quite revealing.

Maybe he will also release the "records" he relied on in describing Senator Kerry. Interestingly, none of those descriptions seem to be derived from the evaluations of his own commanders.


Last edited by eecee on Sun May 09, 2004 8:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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