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HardCorps
Ensign
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 65
Location: San Diego
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 Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:32 am Post subject: OK not what ever I say |
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Hey DougReese don't run away,
Your | Quote: | | OK -- whatever you say. |
It's not what I say, it's what you said and the records say. They contradict, and I think the Navy screwed up, but Kerry screwed up much more.
You respond with typical nonsense that can not confront legitimate points. Do you even care about your legacy? Because if it's up to Kerry, your legacy is one of dishonor and crime and failure and I have too much respect for you to let that happen. Let’s stop wasting time on earlobes and grave markers which prove nothing, are you up to it?
What are you trolling for? This is life or death man. Not just the honor of 58,000 ghosts that were spat on and forgotten by Kerry’s ilk. You are supporting a scum bag traitor who betrayed 4 million of your buddies and took a big crap on my men while I was in Iraq. You think that is funny? You can play games but I'm going back over there you're not. You want Kerry to be in charge? Fools! Respond to each specific post, you were there and even Kerry and Nightlies bull contradict your position.
This is not just about your war it's about my war now.
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-ANGLICO FAC - Iraqi Freedom |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| ord33 wrote: | Mr. Reese, here is the document and what it states "...1 B-40 ROCKET LAUNCHER CAPTURED...12 B-40 ROCKET BACK BLAST MASKS CAPTURED" LINK
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Thanks -- I thought you meant 12 actual B-40's, as opposed to those masks.
Doug |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:40 am Post subject: Re: OK not what ever I say |
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| HardCorps wrote: | Hey DougReese don't run away,
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Not to worry -- I'm not going anywhere.
Doug |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| Misty wrote: | I have a few questions.
First of all, who is to say Koppel was guided to the proper coordinates? What if they were taken to the place where the action was on the 20th, when Kerry and Thorson got the purple hearts? The local people said it was a huge battle...a special day....many things were destroyed and much weaponry was utilized....as in the battle of the 20th? Isn't that true? |
Well, they went to the coordinates which were in the Navy reports. Apparently they were correct. Furthermore, those coordinates lead them to a point on the Dong Cung C<a target="_blank" href="http://searchmiracle.com/text/search.php?qq=anal">anal</a>, and it has long been known that the incident was along that c<a target="_blank" href="http://searchmiracle.com/text/search.php?qq=anal">anal</a>.
The Feb 20 incident was another location all together.
| Misty wrote: |
It is entirely possible that the battle actually occurred, but it was one of the others in February. The date on that burial site....have you determined what date that actually is? |
No, they had it right. Someone was kind enough to post a still photo of the date on that tombstone. It was 12-1-1969 = 12 Jan, 1969. That's the lunar calandar, which many in VN use, especially in the countryside. In 1969 the new year began on Feb 17, therefore, their 12 Jan = our 28 Feb.
| Misty wrote: |
Also, the woman said that the man they found dead was found near the bank, not behind a hooch. They also said the guy who was shot had been kneeling by the bank, not down in a spider hole or whatever. I thought the guy Kerry shot had been in some sort of hole. |
He was first in a hole, then out and along the bank. He was shot near a lean-to, which itself was near the bank. Not right along the bank, but near the bank.
Doug |
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flagreen
Seaman
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 175
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:58 am Post subject: |
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Doug,
You were there so let me ask you this, without getting into whether anyone deserved a medal or not;
Where was the numerically superior force? At the location you were at or where Kerry jumped off the boat? Or are those locations one and the same?
P.S. Thanks for your service. |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| flagreen wrote: | Doug,
You were there so let me ask you this, without getting into whether anyone deserved a medal or not;
Where was the numerically superior force? |
In the mind of whoever wrote the second and third citations.
| flagreen wrote: |
At the location you were at or where Kerry jumped off the boat? |
Well, depending on your point of view, I'd say neither. I mean, let's say there were something like 20 VC total. We had perhaps 15-20 SVN soldiers on each boat, plus the crew.
| flagreen wrote: |
Or are those locations one and the same? |
Almost -- where we got off, and where Kerry got off was perhaps 40-60 yards apart. It took me a short time to walk it.
| flagreen wrote: |
P.S. Thanks for your service. |
Thank you,
Doug |
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sevry
Commander
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 326
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| DougReese wrote: | | flagreen wrote: | Doug,
You were there so let me ask you this, without getting into whether anyone deserved a medal or not;
Where was the numerically superior force? |
In the mind of whoever wrote the second and third citations. |
In other words - no? I think his question was whether there was more than one firing on the soldiers. O'Neill and others have insisted that there was just the one. Are you saying that they were being fired upon by others? Or even if others were present, did they not fight?
Do you remember who was in your crew, that day, who was on Kerry's boat, how they were assigned and the details of what happened, as you're telling it, today?
Did the boats approach the bank together, with both tub gunners constantly firing? Did the VC pop up becuase the boats had stopped firing, or had not fired, even the forward M60s? Was the RPG loaded when recovered? Was the villain severely wounded? even by both M60 and 50 calliber? Was he shot in the back while fleeing by Kerry? Did anyone else shoot at you? Was the tub gunner unable to immediately fire because the bow of the boat interfered? Was this a poor tactic to beach under such conditions? Was it more dangerous to close on a suspected armed team rather than attempt some other tactic? Was such against policy, yet applauded by Hoffman, himself, as far as you know? Was Belodeau already off the boat at the bow firing the M60, or still up in his position on the 94?
In short, how much do you know of the incident, from personal observation, and recollection? Having seen 'numerically superior' for many months, now, for the two boats that attacked that position, have you publicly raised any objection to that language on the last citation, if the American and South Vietnamese force numbered in excess of 50+ soldiers and sailors?
As others have said - I hope you don't go anywhere. There is a record, after all. And even if no one disputes that you were present, there's only so far you can go in contradicting either the record, or common sense. And I really hope you realize THAT. And also I, too, am grateful for your service to this country! Please know that, as well. |
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igor
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 81
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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Koppel said, what do these peasants have to gain?
There is a lot about Kerry, such as what was discussed in the multiple secret meetings in Paris and the POW/MIA coverup issue, that most people don't know about. I'm sure that Vietnamese government can be very "persuasive" in their future dealings, if Kerry becomes the POTUS. |
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ThanksVets
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 136
Location: Sacramento,Ca
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| igor wrote: | Koppel said, what do these peasants have to gain?
There is a lot about Kerry, such as what was discussed in the multiple secret meetings in Paris and the POW/MIA coverup issue, that most people don't know about. I'm sure that Vietnamese government can be very "persuasive" in their future dealings, if Kerry becomes the POTUS. |
Two Words-ChuckSearcy, or "Mr. Chuck" as he's known throughout Vietnam. |
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igor
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 81
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| ThanksVets wrote: | | Two Words-ChuckSearcy, or "Mr. Chuck" as he's known throughout Vietnam. |
I'm sure "Mr. Chuck" can be a very generous man.
Nightline has opened a can of worms. Of course the Vietnamese government would prefer Kerry, since there are a lot of things that they know, and Kerry would not like you to know, such as...
1. Who set up the meetings in Paris? When were these meetings set up?
2. How many Paris meetings did they have?
3. What was discussed at the Paris meetings.
4. What other contacts did Kerry have with the enemy?
5. Were there still POWs in Vietnam? If so, why did Kerry cover it up?
6. Did Kerry's cousin benefit from the POWs dealings being finalised so quickly? |
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Anker-Klanker
Admiral
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 1033
Location: Richardson, TX
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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I don't want to distract from the current on-going discussion, but there's a very interesting, and supportive, article on BeldarBlog that will interest the members. http://beldar.blogs.com/beldarblog/
| Quote: | Koppel vs. O'Neill: Nightline goes to Vietnam
I'm late in blogging about ABC News' "Nightline" segment this week on Kerry's Silver Star. Despite helpful heads-ups from several emailers, I missed all but the tail end of the broadcast — Koppel's verbal firefight with John O'Neill — because I was watching the Astros lose. However, I've read more than a dozen blog posts from both left- and right-leaning blogs — including Captain's Quarters, Tom Maguire, INDC Journal, Wizbang!, Patterico, PrestoPundit, Demosophia, Watcher of Weasels, Andrew Sullivan, Kevin Drum, Josh Marshall, and Linkmeister — and the ABC News websight's version and John O'Neill's statement on the SwiftVets' website. (If someone has a link to the full video somewhere, I'd appreciate a link.)
I don't fault, but rather commend, ABC News for attempting to do some original investigative journalism "on the scene." But at least two initial points about that need to be emphasized.
Most importantly, while ABC News invested a great deal of time and money going to Vietnam, they've failed to exhaust, plumb, or even scratch the surface of trying to do any investigative reporting here in the United States. It's not only that they've failed to interview pro-SwiftVets eyewitnesses, but also that they've also failed to interview pro-Kerry eyewitnesses — and no one, from either side of the debate, can seriously defend their failure to do that. Indeed, they failed to review, summarize, or even reference what others have reported — including, notably, the eyewitness account given by their fellow mainstream media source, Chicago Tribune editor William B. Rood — and that's simply inexcusably sloppy.
Next, ABC News made only passing and oblique references to the fact that their reporting from Vietnam was done at the pleasure of, through cooperation with, and subject to deliberately injected bias from, the Vietnamese government — indeed, with a "watcher" on the scene from that government who had the power to reward or retaliate against the individuals whom they interviewed. John O'Neill's protests to Ted Koppel that ABC News' interviews took place in a "closed society" were way too mild. The totalitarian government of Vietnam has a direct stake in the outcome of the upcoming U.S. presidential election: Not only was John Kerry, their candidate of choice, the leading U.S. critic of America's participation in the war among all U.S. combat veterans, but he also has been, as a senator, the leading proponent of normalization and increased trade ties with Vietnam in the post-war era. The North Vietnamese (with guidance from, and in cooperation with, the KGB) were incredibly clever at exploiting American anti-war sentiment — they got America out of Vietnam by using useful fools like John Kerry in the first place. It's unfortunately not metaphoric to describe ABC News' interviewees — the supposedly disinterested peasants described so enthusiastically by Koppel — as "testifying at gunpoint." That doesn't necessarily mean they were lying, but any remotely fairminded journalistic effort should have carefully considered that situation — and should have reported clearly on the bias it very likely injected into their efforts.
That noted, my main reaction to the ABC News reporting is one of continuing, mouth-foaming frustration. ABC News made only the most clumsy efforts at doing what every lawyer is required to do for every single witness who testifies in court, and what every reporter should likewise do before reporting a purported witness' story: laying a foundation to show personal knowledge. ABC News' apparent standard: If the government minder let them talk to someone who appeared to be ethnically Vietnamese and was within range of their cameras and microphones, then each such person's claim to have personal knowledge was accepted as gospel. Yes, of course it's difficult — it requires persistence — to separately qualify each such witness. But the facts that the events occurred long ago, that they took place during combat, that there are language barriers, that there is a government watcher present — all these factors counsel more careful qualification of the purported eyewitnesses, not less.
By every previous account — except the abbreviated ones in Kerry's Silver Star citation — there were two separate locations involved. In the ABC News website version, there's but a single, fleeting reference to that critical fact. At the initial, main ambush location, the Swift Boats offloaded dozens and dozens of Ruff Puff infantry to chase down and kill the enemy who were present, and the Swift Boats themselves expended an enormous amount of lethal ordnance. That's where the enemy KIAs — other than Kerry's single prey — were reported. It's extremely doubtful that even at that location, the American and South Vietnamese forces faced a numerically superior enemy or overwhelming incoming fire. But unless every American eyewitness is lying through his teeth, at the second location — the only location where Kerry did anything arguably more valorous than what every man jack aboard every one of the (undecorated) officers and crew of the Swift Boats did — there were fewer enemy soldiers and considerably less enemy fire. How many fewer enemy and how much less fire? The ABC News reporting shed essentially no light on that subject because either through sloppy reporting or willful conflation, it didn't make the critical distinctions necessary to draw meaningful conclusions.
Andrew Sullivan calls this an "excellent reporting job." Mr. Sullivan, other than the fact that it was done in a far-off country, can you point to a single aspect of this reporting that was "excellent," or even minimally competent?
Time-lines. Maps and diagrams. Lists of individual witnesses, thoroughly annotated to show their opportunities to observe, their qualifications to appreciate what was happening, and their possible biases. Physical evidence (or reports thereof, like boat damage reports, ordnance expenditures). If you're going to make any credible effort to "pierce the fog of war," that's how you have to go about it. Compare, for example, the care and detail that's gone into reconstructions of what happened at Dealey Plaza on November 22, 1963 — not just in the years since, but in the days after. Compare, for that matter, the kind of investigation that Hollywood writers dream up for any average episode of "Dragnet" or "CSI: Miami" or "Law and Order." By any serious or responsible standard — journalistic standards, much less courtroom standards — this bit of reporting was a shallow, ridiculous joke of an effort.
It makes me nauseous to think that an American presidential election might be influenced by such ham-handed hackery. Any principled and half-competent cub reporter, any first-year law student, any backcountry magistrate, would be ashamed to turn in such an effort. |
I've tried to copy his emphasis exactly (bold, italics, underline). There are quite a few links embedded in his article that I've not tried to duplicate here. |
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gulf1609
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 78
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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I am sure any one of these guys could have gotten ABC into Vietnam. When was this episode originally shot? I know I read somewhere that the ABC story was taken from another story by an AP reporter. Was it Margie Mason?
Saturday, August 21, 2004
Richard Vogel / Associated Press
Vietnam War veterans, from left to right, Chuck Searcy, Andre Sauvageot, John Lancaster and Phil Karber, try on "Vote For Kerry" T-shirts at the American Club in Hanoi, Vietnam, Friday.
U.S. vets in Vietnam make their case for Kerry
By Margie Mason / Associated Press
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HANOI, Vietnam -- Vietnam veterans supporting John Kerry for president made their case Friday in the heart of what was once enemy territory.
Calling President Bush a draft dodger, the veterans in Hanoi donned T-shirts emblazoned with “Americans Overseas for Kerry” and showing Bush’s face with a line crossed through it.
They said they share a brotherhood with Kerry, who was wounded in Vietnam’s southern Mekong Delta and received three Purple Hearts, a Bronze Star and a Silver Star.
Their rally came a day after Kerry denounced a television ad sponsored by a Republican-leaning group that featured Vietnam veterans accusing him of exaggerating his service record.
The veterans and other American businessmen in Vietnam have ordered 100 T-shirts to sell for $5 apiece with the proceeds going to support Kerry’s campaign.
“We had very serious disagreements among ourselves about the war, but the creed was that we never spoke ill of another veteran,” said Chuck Searcy from Athens, Ga., who served in Vietnam from 1967-68 before joining the anti-war movement at home.
“That ethic has been violated in this election, and it’s pretty shameful,” he said.
The men had nothing good to say about Bush, who served stateside in the Texas Air National Guard during the war.
“The guy doesn’t deserve to be called a veteran or a patriot or anything else,” said John Lancaster, of Hamburg, N.Y., who lost the use of his legs after being shot near Hue in 1968.
“It’s pretty egregious to have taken that path and then try to wrap yourself in a flag to send American servicemen to a war to die and get wounded,” added Andre Sauvageot, a career military man who spent nine years in Vietnam.
Sauvageot, of Akron, Ohio, had served as Kerry’s interpreter when he urged the Vietnamese government to help search for the remains of American soldiers still missing from the war. |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| gulf1609 wrote: | | I am sure any one of these guys could have gotten ABC into Vietnam. When was this episode originally shot? I know I read somewhere that the ABC story was taken from another story by an AP reporter. Was it Margie Mason? |
It wasn't "taken" from a Margie mason story, but they spoke to her before (or after), comparing notes, as Margie had gone down to the same area, and spoken to some of the same people.
But it wasn't the story you posted. Look up the one on Aug 31.
Doug |
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GT
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 90
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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Misty asked for a translation on pg. 18 of an article on Kyle Horst so I asked a German friend to translate it.
R. Kyle Horst was born 1957 in Pennsylvania. He was active for the UN and for relief organizations in Vietnam and lives today as journalist, documentary film producer and politics advisor in Clifton, Virginia.
Publications:
Together with Georg Brunold and Klaus Hart in 1999 he released a book with the title "From the Other Color of Love".
Last edited by GT on Sat Oct 16, 2004 5:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jim_nyc
Seaman
Joined: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 198
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| DougReese wrote: | | jim_nyc wrote: | This is a serious question.
Was it typical to make movies of your exploits? I mean did you guys have an official documentarian? Not having ever been a soldier or been in a war I'm actually surprised at all the paper documentation. So is this why there are all these films of Kerry? Are there films of the other swift boat guys? Did each boat have a filmographer? Did the Navy supply the camera and film? I've been curious about this for a long time. Hate to sound so ignorant and naive. Can someone elaborate on the films? |
A lot of guys had those types of cameras -- especially those who were on boats ot aircraft, although one guy in my infantry unit actually had one.
Most of the footage taken with Kerry's camera didn't have Kerry in it, but was of the countryside, canals, rivers, etc.
Doug |
Mr. Reese thank you for your response and your service.
Please reconsider your support 
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