SwiftVets.com

Zac's Mom · Ensign Joined: 14 May 2004 Posts: 53 Location: Texas

a VC willing to go record with statements in support of one of his national heroes.

Get the enemy to vouch for him! Now that is a unique approach to 'authenticating' their candidate of choice ~
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Misty · Lieutenant Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 223

LewWaters · Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:34 am Post subject:

gerson · Seaman Recruit Joined: 05 Sep 2004 Posts: 34

Here is a link to a four page story about this on the ABC site:

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Nightline/Vote2004/story?id=166434&page=1

This is one of my favorite parts:

cipher · Vice Admiral Joined: 10 Aug 2004 Posts: 902

Sorry about the broken link to the archives for the reports. There are times I *hate* php and nuke code. This is one of them.

Go here, and click the "documents" tab at the upper left side of the page: http://www.swiftboatarchives.com/

Alright, here is what I've got so far:

This is taking some time. Picking this apart totally is going to take longer than I anticipated, since there are so many inconsistencies.

Here is a brief ROUGH draft, just to give you an idea of what is happening and where the spin is coming from. Please be mindful this is preliminary. Any comments/criticism/assistance appreciated.

It is also a bit disjointed, as the nature of the argument tends to lump events together that are separate and distinct. Taking it apart is like peeling an onion: the longer you do it, the more you want to cry.

-------

ABC: "According to the military citation, Kerry was awarded the medal for his actions during an intense firefight on Feb. 28, 1969, during which he shot and killed a Viet Cong fighter who was armed with a rocket launcher. Members of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth group have charged that the Viet Cong fighter was a teenager who was alone, who was not part of a numerically superior force, and who was already wounded and running away when Kerry shot him."

UFC: "a lone, wounded, fleeing, young Vietcong in a loincloth."

CITATION: (Zumwalt version) "Patrol Craft Fast 94 then beached in the center of the enemy positions and an enemy soldier sprang up from his position not ten feet from Patrol Craft Fast 94 and fled. Without hesitation Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY leaped ashore, pursued the man behind a hootch and killed him, capturing a B-40 rocket launcher with a round in the chamber."

CITATION: (all versions) "With utter disregard for his own safety and the enemy rockets...."

Analysis: The VC had an RPG-2 with B-40 grenade(s). He fired one B-40 at the PCF, missing it but blowing out a window from proximity blast. It takes an experienced two-man crew 10 to 12 seconds to reload an RPG-2. If no first loader is present, and the gunner reloads, call it 15 seconds, if he's good and not hassled by gunfire. If he is running, it might take 30 seconds, if he has the B-40 in one hand, the RPG-2 in the other, and is experienced with the weapon. Reloading while running AND wounded would add to that time. At no time would it be likely he would be firing multiple rockets (as implied in the citation and MTSR), since only ONE near-hit was noted in the citation and MTSR.

n.b.; the addition of the word "NOT" in "... not 10 feet away" which implies a closer distance, but is NOT in the original MTSR. The MTSR states precisely "10 feet away"

ABC: "According to the after-action report, after beaching the Swift boat, Kerry "chased VC inland, behind hooch, and shot him while he fled, capturing one B-40 rocket launcher, with round in chamber.""

MTSR "PCF BEACHED IN CENTER OF AMBUSH FRONT OF SMALL PATH WHEN VC SPRUNG UP FROM BUNKER 10 FEET FROM UNIT. MAN RAN WITH WEAPON TOWARD HOOCH. FORWARD M-60 GUNNER WOUNDED MAN IN LEG. OINC JUMPED ASHORE AND GAVE PURSUIT WHILE OTHER UNITS SATURATED AREA WITH FIRE AND SEARCHED PLACING ASSAULT PARTIES ASHORE. OINC OF PCF 94 CHASED VC INLAND BEHIND HOOCH AND SHOT HIM WHILE HE FLED CAPTURING ONE B-40 ROCKET LAUNCHER WITH ROUND IN CHAMBER."

n.b.; There are NO commas in the MTSR in the places shown in the ABC version. There are commas in OTHER places in the same MTSR, but not where ABC shows them. The ABC report reads rather (no pun intended) differently WITHOUT the "added" commas.

Conclusion: While there were other VC in the immediate area, THIS particular action involved ONE and ONLY one VC. Hence, he was "a lone, wounded, young vietcong..." The only distinction is what he was wearing, which is basically "who cares?"

Lt. Kerry put his RFPF troops ashore -- 38 of them -- and by the VC account there were a total of 20 VC. By the casualty account, 10 were KIA (4 by PCFs and 6 by RFPF troops) and one WIA in the action. This hardly constitutes "attacking a numerically superior force". By any and all accounts, it was a blow-out.

Twenty VC with small arms and ONE RPG-2 and 12 B-40 rockets on the enemy side. There were 3 clips of AK-47 7.62x39 (probably 90 rounds) captured.
On the US Navy side (alone, NOT counting the ammo from the 100+ RFPF!):
7,000 rounds Cal .50 BMG
6,000 rounds 7.62mm M-60
40 rounds 81mm HE mortar
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USMC 69-72, 7th Comm, 3rd MarDiv, FMFPAC
US Army 75-79, 97th Sig, SHAPE, NATO
Arkansas National Guard 79
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ord33 · Rear Admiral Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 670 Location: Ohio

Does anyone know if Nightline is a half hour or hour program?

LewWaters · Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:51 am Post subject:

To be "fair," why doesn't Nightline go and seek out members of the Taliban to report their "eyewitness" views of the war in Afghanistan? Will they also include a Special Report from Saddam Hussein himself, to "balance" it all out?
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Clark County Conservative

RMalloy · PO3 Joined: 23 Aug 2004 Posts: 280

Small piece of excellent post Eziek wrote:

jim_nyc · Seaman Joined: 13 Sep 2004 Posts: 198

This is some serious nonsense. Some of these villagers look like they could not have been more than 8 years old at the time and one claims she was pregnant and the guy who I guess is her son looks like he's 18. so far this looks to be a load of you know what.
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NEED SOME WOOD?

voltaire · Seaman Recruit Joined: 26 Aug 2004 Posts: 8

Maybe while ABC was over there they found a Cambodian who saw Kerry on Christmas Day '68.

cipher · Vice Admiral Joined: 10 Aug 2004 Posts: 902

This statement is NOT intended to be racist or provocative, however, orientals as a general rule appear MUCH younger than they are in reality until they hit their 30s. This is my opinion, based on years of observation and living with orientals. It is VERY difficult for a westerner to distinguish the age of an oriental with any CLOSE degree of accuracy if the oriental is between 16 and 30. Generally, they maintain their youthful appearance for a LONG time.

Again, this is NOT intended as any slight or gross misrepresentation. It is merely an observation based on MY experience.
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USMC 69-72, 7th Comm, 3rd MarDiv, FMFPAC
US Army 75-79, 97th Sig, SHAPE, NATO
Arkansas National Guard 79
Defense contractor for US Navy, SSPO, SP-20, SP-24, OP-12 84-92

swiftsocks · Seaman Recruit Joined: 27 Aug 2004 Posts: 41

Koppel is getting hung out to dry by John ONeil !

Please take an extra minute to say a prayer for all the Swifties....

Hell is on the way......in a Swiftboat !!!!!!

RMalloy · PO3 Joined: 23 Aug 2004 Posts: 280

Where's the NCIS guys? Send them over and dig the guy up. Laughing

Autopsy, whole works, get Kerry's original firearm, ballistics.
Do a computer reconstruct of the battle. Get the boats back.
Have the piece of "shrapnel" in Kerry's leg extracted. Should be
easy to find out what kind of metal is still in his thigh. Get Kerry's
8mm film of the re-enactment. Find out maybe Kerry didn't finish
the guy off after all. Wouldn't be the first time Kerry claimed something
that wasn't true.

jim_nyc · Seaman Joined: 13 Sep 2004 Posts: 198

Way to go O'Neil. Just told Koppel he'd been had in a communist country that honors Kerry as a hero. Love it.
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NEED SOME WOOD?

cipher · Vice Admiral Joined: 10 Aug 2004 Posts: 902

It is not at all unlikely for a 26 year old VC to be mistaken for a teenager. Or vice versa. I think the age argument is about as specious as the clothing argument. And, UFC says "young", not "teenage". Although, it may be that the VC was referred to as teenage at a later time.
_________________
USMC 69-72, 7th Comm, 3rd MarDiv, FMFPAC
US Army 75-79, 97th Sig, SHAPE, NATO
Arkansas National Guard 79
Defense contractor for US Navy, SSPO, SP-20, SP-24, OP-12 84-92