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On the Soviet origins of VVAW and today's leftism
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hist/student
Lieutenant

Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 243

Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 5:46 pm Post subject:

unabashed comprehensive retraction Last edited by hist/student on Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:02 am; edited 1 time in total

carpro
Admin

Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 1176
Location: Texas

Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:37 pm Post subject:

Jeremy Eaton wrote:

[
Well, YOU worry about state control. I worry about corporate control. !

OK, now, corporations are a legally authorized business entity. What,exactly, do they control besides their own business?
What is a corporation composed of?
If corporations are abolished, what do you recommend to take their place?
What kind of economy do you advocate, Jeremy?
_________________
"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service."

NoDonkey
Seaman Apprentice

Joined: 02 Jun 2004
Posts: 78
Location: Arlington, VA

Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:54 pm Post subject:

ASPB wrote:

hist/student wrote:

I am not a expert on Chomsky at all. I have watched and listend to him make quite a few speeches on 'Democracy Now' the pacifica news program.

Much of what he says is accurate.... however allot of it is way over the top and ultimatly seemes pointed at a socialist anti american agenda. I will read up on some of his speehes.... You know he is quite Long winded

He's actually a self-avowed anti-american communist.

David Horowitz has a book countering Chomsky - available at FrontPageMag.com.

The Anti-Chomsky Reader
Edited by Peter Collier and David Horowitz

In The Anti-Chomsky Reader, editors Peter Collier and David Horowitz have assembled a set of essays that analyze Noam Chomsky's intellectual career and the evolution of his anti-Americanism. The essays in this provocative book focus on subjects such as Chomsky's bizarre involvement with Holocaust revisionism, his apologies for Khmer Rouge tyrant Pol Pot, and his claim that America's policies in Latin America in the 1980s were comparable to Nazism.
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"Liberalism is totalitarianism with a human face." - Thomas Sowell

nakona
Lieutenant

Joined: 04 Jun 2004
Posts: 242

Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:44 pm Post subject:

It's been my experience that those people who advocate anarchy have never EXPERIENCED anarchy. _________________ 13F20P

Jeremy Eaton
Seaman Apprentice

Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 90

Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:15 pm Post subject:

carpro wrote:

Jeremy Eaton wrote:

[
Well, YOU worry about state control. I worry about corporate control. !

You don't mean to tell me seriously that corporations can not control impressions in the public opinion, politics, and laws? Or at the very least have extremely heavy influence. You would be mad to not consider that your media was tainted in some way by the mechanics of economics. Why do you assume I think something should replace corporations?

There can be many solutions to a problem: policy change, political reform, comittment from business itself, changes in law and spirit.

One difficutly people have is that almost everyone rich/poor hate the government. This makes everyone anti-government! However, government seems to be a necessary evil, one that can unfortunately be corrupt, inefficient, or ineffective.

However, without good policy you end up drinking asbestos in your water. Prison populations boom for lack of decent infrastructure. Quality and safety of life can deteriorate. Public infrastructure, education, suffer.

NOW:
For example, I am an incineration company. Sure what my factories produce is toxic, sure it kills people, but the damage is spread out. But that's all cool, because, thanks to appriopriate contributions in the right politicians pockets, the laws protect me and not your lungs. Sorry bub.

NOW...
Let's say I have a problem with that...

So...
The dangers of incineration are complex, and most people are too distracted, too busy, and too tired to care. I cannot communicate with the parties that should care. Why? Because I have no access.
So maybe I convince some people. We start an NGO to tackle the problem. How can we compete with a corporation that compared to us has bottomless pockets, that spends thousands of dollars on public relations. Claiming that our group is a bunch of liars, idiots, and that we don't have "the facts". They are literally competing with me, and "controlling" the debate. Albiet not total control, but it can be tantomount to that.

We have tremendous media consolidation in this country. To think that your thinking is not tremendously (if not entirely) influenced by the flow of capital would be a grave mistake. To think that your life is not influenced, if not controlled by our commercial society would be a mistake.

What do I suggest? A system where there are controls to limits of what a corporation can do. Where a corporation doesn't have the same rights as an individual. Where monopolies don't dictate policy. Our own media is increasingly becoming more and more concentrated. A way for important marginalized voices to have a say. Not this Coke vs. Pepsi world we live in.

People who still realize the distinction between what rights they should have, and those that they are allowed are in danger of extinction.

You asked me: What a corporation is composed of?
In part, shareholders, looking to create dividends for themselves. This makes businesses extremely competitive on a short term basis. It can make them unscrupulous.

if we add sawdust to the milkshakes we can profit more.

Okay great, but no one checks into the health effects. No one cares. Why should they? The consumer should be aware. But who is going to educate the consumer? They have to look out for themselves. Don't you see that as a vicious cycle?
Also this makes business extremely myopic whereas good government can actually create greater long term benefits for the general greater good.

For instance:
As oil resources deplete on the earth, there will be more and more wars, and economic turmoil . Norway bit the bullet back in the 90's and started agressively moving away from fossil fuels. Now they export power! There nations strength will grow as other nations that have poorly considered their energy strategies fade.
In our case, we are heavily influenced by the fossil fuel lobby. Our ties to Saudi Arabia, the auto and subsidiary industries. We will pay the price for shortsighted policy, as we continue to fund wars for oil contracts in the Middle East. Our economy will be increasly turbulent. Those that already have money won't be that badly affected, but most Americans will be.

My suggestion is not replace corporations, but to have better wiser policy.

Jeremy Eaton
Seaman Apprentice

Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 90

Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:17 pm Post subject:

nakona wrote:

It's been my experience that those people who advocate anarchy have never EXPERIENCED anarchy.

Do you know what the original political definition of anarchy is? If you think you can define Chomsky this way your probably wrong. Let's see how erudite you are.

Jeremy Eaton
Seaman Apprentice

Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 90

Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:27 pm Post subject:

hist/student wrote:

Please shed some illumination on this 'manufactured democracy'.

If you could Jeremy, in your own words could you state a simple explination of what it is Chomsky has helped you understand.?

I hoping for a simple 'plane english-in your own words' explination, not links to articles or cut and pastes of same.

Well reading Manufacturing consent made me realize how the debate becomes either Coke/Pepsi, Israeli/Palestine, Democrats/Republicans, rather than having other possiblities or alternatives. How the War on Drugs is a sham. How the media shapes our talking points, or distracts us, so that we don't really discuss issues with any depth or alternative.
You see, I could try to explain to exactly what I've learned from his books, but if you want it to be squeezed down to a soundbite to place between two commercials. Well, I can't.
In other words this post would become so long spending my time to educate you. You would be better off to read some of his stuff. If you think I could stand to understand your perspective better, I am interested in what links/books you might provide. Links can be good by the way. Often they represent a more carefully thought out, well researched point of view. It can beat the blather of some internet bulletin board.

Jeremy Eaton
Seaman Apprentice

Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 90

Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 1:02 am Post subject:

hist/student wrote:

I may be wrong but I believe one of the keys to anarchy is no rules

I wonder how they will fare under 'communist rules'

You are probably quite right about a lot of anarchists not understanding what anarchy truly is. "no rules" isn't very accurate. Your thinking of the dictionary term and not the branch of political thought.

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