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sparky
Former Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546
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 Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 3:33 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So, dont come on this board motivated by your Bush hate and spread misinformation. Hopefully this teaching moment will enable you to recognize that just because the "story" supports your leftwing bias, doesn't mean it's the truth. |
The Red Cross has been reporting on these abuses to mid to high-ranking military officials for over a year. The abuses didn't stop until the media gave a ****.
http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/16570.html
PICTURES of American soldiers smiling and giving a thumbs up while posing over the corpse of an alleged Iraqi torture victim in a body bag were broadcast on an Arab news station yesterday.
Also note that only 7% of Iraqis see the US as liberators. Man, you guys really f***ed things up.
Here's an article from Time that quotes witnesses saying the abuse continued up until March:
SECTION: COVER/IRAQ/THE FALLOUT; Pg. 26
LENGTH: 4670 words
HEADLINE: The Scandal's Growing Stain;
ABUSES BY U.S. SOLDIERS IN IRAQ SHOCK THE WORLD AND ROIL THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION. THE INSIDE STORY OF WHAT WENT WRONG--AND WHO'S TO BLAME
BYLINE: Johanna McGeary , Reported by Timothy J. Burger, James Carney, Sally B. Donnelly, Michael Duffy, Elaine Shannon, Viveca Novak, Douglas Waller, Michael Weisskopf and Adam Zagorin/ Washington; Mark Thompson/Doha; Brian Bennett, Paul Quinn- Judge, Simon Robinson and Vivienne Walt/Baghdad; Helen Gibson/London; Simon Crittle/New York; and Scott MacLeod/ Cairo
BODY: Haider Sabbar Abed al-Abbadi kept his shame to himself until the
world saw him stripped naked, his head in a hood, a nude fellow
prisoner kneeling before him simulating oral sex. "That is me,"
he claims to a TIME reporter, as one of the lurid photographs of
detained Iraqis suffering sexual humiliation at the hands of U.S.
soldiers scrolls down a computer screen. "I felt a mouth close
around my *****. It was only when they took the bag off my head
that I saw it was my friend." In the nine months he spent in
detention, al-Abbadi says he was never charged and never
interrogated. On that awful November night, four months after his
arrest, he thought he and six other prisoners were being punished
for a petty scuffle.
They were herded into Cellblock 1A. The guards cut off their
clothes, and then the degrading demands began. Through it all,
al-Abbadi knew the Americans were taking photos, he says,
"because I saw the flashbulbs go off through the bag over my
head." He says he is the hooded man in the picture in which a
petite, dark-haired woman in camouflage pants and an Army T
shirt gives a thumbs-up as she points to a prisoner's genitals.
He says he was in the pileup of naked men ordered to lie on the
backs of other detainees as a smiling soldier in glasses looks
on. And al-Abbadi says he was told to masturbate, though he was
too scared to do more than pretend, as a female soldier
flaunted her bare breasts.
Those scenes, caught in shocking candor by someone's digital
camera, played over and over last week in the world's newspapers
and magazines and across the airwaves. Jarring new examples
emerged: the same female soldier, holding a leash wrapped around
the neck of a naked prisoner cringing at her feet. Even when the
shots were pixilated or cropped for modesty, nothing could hide
the raw cruelty of U.S. soldiers ridiculing the manhood of Iraqi
captives. Of all places, these atrocities occurred at Abu Ghraib
prison, once the infamous home of Saddam Hussein's torture
chambers.
The accounts of these misdeeds would be sickening in the best of
times. But with each new revelation of abuses inflicted by U.S.
troops in Iraq, it seems evident that the damage goes far beyond
the appalling acts of a few miscreants. As public doubts about
the war grow, the images of sadism symbolized all that is going
wrong with the U.S. venture in Iraq. The photos touched off a
global outcry, especially in the Arab world, where they provoked
fresh fury among millions of Muslims opposed to George W. Bush's
invasion of Iraq and provided grist for every conspiracy theorist
who claims the U.S. is bent on debasing Islam and humiliating
Arabs. "We're going to live with the consequences of this for the
next 40 years," says a senior White House official, and few would
accuse him of exaggeration. Most immediately, the scandal has
imperiled the U.S. effort to pacify Iraq by turning even more
ordinary Iraqis against the occupation and reinforcing the sense
that control is slipping everywhere, less than two months before
the U.S. is due to hand sovereignty back to the nation.
Nothing the Bush Administration said or did could contain the
damage. The President, who says he first learned of the existence
of the photographs when they were aired two weeks ago on CBS's 60
Minutes II, went on Arab television to proclaim the abusive
treatment "abhorrent" behavior that "does not represent the
America that I know." His words weren't enough to dent the
outrage of Muslims who wondered why he failed to apologize. A day
later Bush finally said he was sorry, but America's image in much
of the Arab world may well be irredeemable. U.S. officials tried
to portray the sordid scenes as the isolated acts of a few
low-ranking soldiers who were violating U.S. policy. The
military, they pointed out, has already rooted out the offenders
and is disciplining them. "Please don't for a moment think that's
the entire U.S. military, because it's not," said Brigadier
General Mark Kimmitt, spokesman for coalition forces in Iraq.
But the horror stories keep coming. An Army investigation of
conditions at Abu Ghraib concluded that prison guards had carried
out "numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant and wanton abuse"
for months. The Army is investigating reports of crimes committed
at other detention facilities in Iraq. Testifying before the
Senate last Friday, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said the
Pentagon has obtained more photos and video footage that show
U.S. troops engaged in even worse behavior. "We're not just
talking about giving people a humiliating experience," Senator
Lindsey Graham said. "We're talking about rape and murder and
some very serious charges." A senior Pentagon official tells TIME
that the Pentagon is considering the possibility of showing the
unseen material to members of Congress.
The scandal has metastasized into a full-blown political crisis
as Washington tries to figure out who to blame. The seven
reservists involved in the photographed abuses have been charged
with conspiracy, maltreatment and indecent acts, and six
additional soldiers up the chain of command have been severely
reprimanded and one was admonished. But many are looking for
accountability higher up. Rumsfeld took most of the fire after
the White House put out word he had been chastised by Bush for
not reporting how bad the allegations were or warning that the
photos were about to break on 60 Minutes II. Called on the carpet
by furious members of Congress, Rumsfeld conceded, "I failed to
identify the catastrophic damage that the allegations of abuse
could do to our operations in the theater, to the safety of our
troops in the field, to the cause to which we are committed."
A senior Pentagon official says Rumsfeld is more shaken than in
any previous crisis. "He's not a man of self-doubt," says the
official, but he's "questioning himself and others more
rigorously than previously." Rumsfeld told Senators that he
intends to keep his job, but he betrayed doubts about his future.
"If I felt I could not be effective, I'd resign in a minute," he
said. Asked by Indiana Senator Evan Bayh whether it "would serve
to demonstrate how seriously we take the situation" if he were to
step down, Rumsfeld responded, "That's possible." Evidence that
further abuses took place under his watch could well raise the
pressure on him to resign. To see if more probes should be
initiated, Rumsfeld plans to appoint a blue-ribbon panel of
retired officials to examine the slew of investigations into
prison management and guard training now under way. The Army is
studying the deaths of 25 detainees in Iraq and Afghanistan,
including two that have been ruled homicides, while the Justice
Department is examining the role of the CIA and contract
employees in the deaths of three other detainees.
So many questions remain unresolved. Were the Abu Ghraib abuses
carried out by rogue officers or done on someone's orders? Were
they an excessive campaign for intelligence, or humiliation for
fun? Did the U.S. get useful intelligence, or was it a nasty
waste? As Americans struggle to make sense of the news, they want
to understand: Why did this happen? And what is being done about
it?
A HOUSE OF HORRORS
The trouble at Abu Ghraib was a long time brewing. The 260-acre
prison complex lies behind tall walls off a highway 20 miles west
of Baghdad. In the days of Saddam it housed thousands of
criminals and political prisoners who were subjected to
unspeakable torture at the whim of the regime. The U.S. military
decided to reopen the prison last August for all Iraqis being
detained and renamed it the Baghdad Correctional Facility. But
reminders of the prison's grim history were inescapable. From the
ceiling of each 10-ft.-by-12-ft. cell still dangled a large hook,
which had been used to hang inmates from their hands or feet.
Waleed Sabih al-Delami, detained after soldiers found suspicious
wires near his house, tells TIME the Americans picked up where
Saddam left off. He says he was suspended from such a hook three
times during his five-month stint in U.S. custody at Abu Ghraib.
His feet were tied, and his arms were bound behind his back.
"They would take a stick and put it through the rope and pull me
off the ground," he says. While he was bound and suspended, a
military translator stood by him, shouting: "You are a terrorist!
You are a terrorist!" But no real questioning took place.
Guarding the thousands of detainees sent to Abu Ghraib by
coalition forces across Iraq was a nasty billet for the 800th
Military Police Brigade, which includes the reserve 372nd
Military Police Company, and the 205th Military Intelligence
Brigade, which also operated there. A senior military official
who lived at Abu Ghraib says soldiers were underequipped and
undermanned. The reservists in particular had virtually no
training for their prison-guard jobs. Discipline flagged. In
November and December, around the time most of the abuse photos
were taken, Abu Ghraib was under constant attack from nightly
mortar raids. Basic sanitation for the troops consisted of
overflowing portable toilets, and soldiers jerry-rigged showers
from pumps they bought themselves. Six months after reopening as
a prison, Abu Ghraib still had no single declared commander. All
the while, detainees kept flooding in, at the rate of 250 a day.
When the abuses occurred, there were some 6,000 prisoners. The
MPs had no good system for keeping prison rolls: criminals,
insurgents and innocents were all lumped together. Escapees and
some detainees believed to be of high intelligence value went
unrecorded.
In September 2003, Major General Geoffrey Miller, commander of
the secret U.S. detention center for terrorist suspects at
Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, visited Iraq to straighten out the prison.
He recommended that the MPs should act not just as guards but as
"enablers for interrogation." In November, a second visiting
general advised the exact opposite, saying MPs should have
nothing to do with interrogation. The conflict had apparently not
been resolved by the prison's top brass when the photographed
abuses occurred.
Between October and December of last year, the poorly trained,
demoralized reservists in the 372nd crossed the line. William
Lawson, uncle of Staff Sergeant Ivan Frederick II, claims that
his nephew and the other guards were following orders when they
tortured and sexually humiliated Iraqi prisoners. The MPs told
investigators they did it because officers in the
military-intelligence unit and civilian contractors working with
them told them to "loosen up" men for interrogation. Sabrina
Harman, who appears in one photograph grinning behind a pile of
naked detainees, told the Washington Post that the MPs were
instructed by military-intelligence officers to "make it hell" on
the prisoners in order to make them talk. Now facing possible
court-martial, Harman is allegedly the one who attached wires to
a hooded man's hands and forced him to stand on a box,
threatening him with electrocution if he fell off.
If the soldiers were following orders, why did they photograph
themselves in the act? The MPs claim the pictures too were meant
to serve as a psychological tool to scare new prisoners into
talking. Frederick's uncle says the platoon had tried to soften
them up with techniques like sleep deprivation, "but they found
the best way was with these photographs, and it apparently worked
very effectively." Lawson says his nephew complained about some
of the measures and was told, "Don't worry about it." Yet the
photos, showing MPs smiling and mugging as they degrade their
prisoners, suggest that the accused were hardly acting against
their will.
Reports of scandalous U.S. behavior inside Abu Ghraib have
circulated in Iraq since the day it reopened. Amnesty
International raised questions back in July, but coalition forces
blamed any trouble on the general disorganization of the
occupation's early months. Officials of the International
Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) brought serious allegations of
abuse--which they are bound to keep confidential--to U.S.
attention beginning in October. Pierre Gassman, head of the ICRC
delegation in charge of Iraq, told TIME that his team found
credible, disturbing evidence of mistreatment after interviewing
virtually all the prisoners during that visit. The Red Cross
reported its findings to Brigadier General Janis Karpinski, the
overall prison commander, and to staff officers attached to the
office of Lieut. General Ricardo Sanchez, the top U.S. commander
in Baghdad. In February, after more prisoner interviews, Red
Cross officials sent a comprehensive report directly to the
staffs of Sanchez and L. Paul Bremer, head of the U.S. Coalition
Provisional Authority. Later that month, Gassman met with Bremer
and Sanchez. Gassman says he had the impression that the
officials were aware of the allegations of prison abuses before
he entered the room.
They were. For months Bremer's authority had been hearing
complaints from released prisoners and families of those still in
detention. The State Department knew enough to realize, says a
senior official, "this was going to be a problem." Aides to
Bremer and Secretary of State Colin Powell say that as early as
last fall, both men raised the issue in meetings with the rest of
the Administration's national-security team. Yet no action was
taken until mid-January, when Specialist Joseph Darby, a member
of the 372nd Military Police Company, got hold of some of the
incriminating photographs. He slipped an anonymous note under the
door of a superior officer, reporting the misbehavior, and then
turned over the photos proving it.
Beginning the next day, the Army launched a discrete
investigation. Sanchez immediately admonished Karpinski for
"serious deficiencies" and quietly suspended her from command. In
January Sanchez ordered a full-scale probe of prison practices
under the charge of Major General Antonio Taguba, who completed
his "Secret/No Foreign Dissemination" report in early March. The
report, first obtained by the New Yorker two weeks ago and now on
the Internet, blames MP commanders for poor leadership and a
refusal to enforce basic standards. But it points to plenty of
other failings as well. Overcrowded cells held too many prisoners
guarded by unsupervised reservists with inadequate training. Left
on their own, the soldiers of the 372nd practiced systematic and
illegal abuse beyond what appeared in the photos, including
forcing prisoners to wear women's underwear, pouring phosphoric
liquid on prisoners, sodomizing a man with a chemical light and
using dogs, which Muslims consider unclean, to intimidate
detainees.
Taguba's report supports the contention of MPs like Frederick
that the soldiers were told that inflicting such indignities
would "set the conditions" for favorable interrogation by
military-intelligence officers, CIA officers and private
contractors. Taguba concluded that a quartet of
military-intelligence officers and civilian contractors "were
either directly or indirectly responsible for the abuse at Abu
Ghraib." According to testimony from another accused abuser,
Sergeant Javal Davis, military-intelligence officers essentially
egged the guards on: "Loosen this guy up for us. Make sure he
gets the treatment." Davis testified that military-intelligence
officers praised Specialist Charles Graner, another of the
accused, for his efforts, using "statements like 'Good job,
they're breaking down real fast.'"
On March 20, the military announced that Frederick, Harman,
Davis, Graner, Specialist Megan Ambuhl and Private Jeremy Sivits
of the 372nd Military Police Company were being held in Iraq and
charged with conspiracy, dereliction of duty, assault,
maltreatment and indecent acts. A seventh soldier, Lynndie
England, the jaunty G.I. Jane in many of the photos, who is now
pregnant, was sent to Fort Bragg, N.C., where she was later
charged with the same offenses. Six soldiers up the chain of
command were given formal reprimands that will end their military
careers, and one was less severely admonished. Although Taguba
recommended firing the two civilian contractors, their U.S.
companies say the Pentagon has made no such formal requests yet.
The Justice Department is trying to figure out if the private
contractors can be prosecuted under any U.S. law.
Devastating as it is, the Taguba report only addresses one set of
abuses. Though U.S. officials insist that the Abu Ghraib crimes
were rare instances of misconduct, the problem may well be more
widespread. Britain's Ministry of Defense is investigating 12
cases of civilian death, injury or mistreatment in Iraq at the
hands of British soldiers, and is considering action against
troops for six deaths. Charges of mistreatment of Iraqi detainees
by four British soldiers are also being investigated.
Freed detainees have scores of horror stories to tell. Though
most of the accounts have not been corroborated, the scandal
makes anything seem possible. Nabil Shakar Abdul Razaq al-Taiee,
54, a retired electrical worker who was arrested last December,
told TIME that as recently as March, he witnessed soldiers
beating prisoners, including a mentally unstable man who was
thrown in a shipping container and pummeled and taunted for days.
Another former prisoner, Mohammed Unis Hassan, was arrested by
U.S. forces for looting a bank last July. He told TIME of a
seven-month odyssey through the prison system that included
beatings, humiliation and soldiers having sex with female
detainees. At the Baghdad airport holding pen, he laughed at
interrogators who asked if he knew which terrorists were
exploding bombs. When he failed to provide information, they beat
him with a cable or a riot stick on the back of the legs. He saw
U.S. soldiers strip the clothes off a fellow inmate and put their
feet on his head, making him lie naked on the ground for hours.
Mohammed claimed that prisoners, angered by the death of an old
man forced to lie on his face, loosened a tent pole and hit a
U.S. soldier so hard that "he died."
Eventually Mohammed, 24, wound up in a cell at Abu Ghraib, where
he was beaten for hiding a pack of cigarettes. A woman soldier
that he recalled as "so beautiful" pushed his arms through the
bars of the cell and cuffed them so tightly he couldn't move.
Then, he says, she poked his eye with her finger so hard he
couldn't see afterward. Three months after the incident,
Mohammed's left eye was gray and glassy, allowing only modest
vision of blurry shapes. He says the guards at Abu Ghraib drank
whisky and walked the halls with cans of beer. And he says he saw
an American guard having regular sex with an Iraqi woman prisoner
on the floor above and across the hall from his cell.
WHAT DID THEY KNOW?
The firestorm of outrage provoked by the Abu Ghraib pictures
seemed to catch U.S. officials by surprise. Army General John
Abizaid, chief of the U.S. Central Command that oversees Iraq,
told TIME that after learning of the abuses in January, he sent
word of it to General Richard Myers, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs
of Staff. Though military investigators had been aware for months
that graphic photos existed, Pentagon officials showed no
particular urgency in finding out how bad they were or informing
anyone else about them. When Myers learned several weeks ago that
CBS was about to air the pictures, he persuaded the network to
delay the broadcast for two weeks. An earlier telecast might
jeopardize the safety of Americans held hostage by Iraqi
insurgents, he said, and further inflame anti-U.S. tensions in
the country. But amazingly, Myers hadn't actually seen the
pictures. When he appeared on television four days after they
were broadcast, he admitted he hadn't read Taguba's report yet.
Rumsfeld's response was equally clueless. Just hours before the
CBS show, says Republican Senator John McCain, Rumsfeld trooped
up to S-407, the secure Intelligence Committee room in the
Capitol, "and briefed us on how they're armoring the humvees. He
never mentioned a word about the story that was to run that
evening." Democrats and Republicans alike were furious that the
Defense Secretary had kept them in the dark about the looming
scandal. "If the answer is, 'He didn't know much and that's why
he didn't tell us,'" said Representative John Spratt, a senior
Democrat on the House Armed Services Committee, "then the
follow-up question is, 'Why didn't he know much?'" When Rumsfeld
fielded questions at a press conference early last week, he still
hadn't read the entire Taguba report either.
And Rumsfeld neglected to inform the most important person of
all: his Commander in Chief. Rumsfeld advised Bush in February of
an "issue" involving mistreatment of prisoners in Iraq, says a
senior White House aide. But he didn't warn anyone that CBS was
about to document the abuse with shocking photos.
Throughout official Washington, there is little agreement about
whether the malfeasance at Abu Ghraib was isolated or is
symptomatic of a broad breakdown of interrogation standards. A
senior White House aide says the abuse had nothing to do with
interrogations but was the work of a handful of bad hats egged on
by a ringleader who was doing it for kicks. "It was the night
shift," he says. Military officers tell TIME that reserve
Brigadier General Karpinski was responsible for the wrong-doing.
"When a commander says, 'I didn't know,' that in itself is an
indictment," says a senior officer serving in Iraq.
But the practices employed at Abu Ghraib may be more widespread
than the U.S. has acknowledged. Human rights groups and many
military experts say the Administration's approach to prosecuting
the war on terrorism, including open-ended detention of captives,
denial of due process and intense pressure to come up with
"productive" interrogations, may have created a climate that
fosters abuse. One U.S. official says that some FBI agents were
well aware that the military was using "very aggressive"
interrogation methods that would not be condoned in the U.S. An
Army officer seems to confirm that. Among Arab men, he tells
TIME, sexual insecurity is a powerful lever: fear of
homosexuality and, almost as significant, female domination, are
particular issues. "We don't like to talk about it," says the
officer, "but it is working." If so, success has come at a
staggering cost.
LOSING THE WAR
Once all the apologies were spoken, a battered Administration was
searching for more tangible ways to repair the damage. Major
General Miller has been hustled back to Baghdad to fix the prison
system. He promised to halve the number of prisoners at Abu
Ghraib and end the practice of hooding captives. But he refused
to entirely rule out the use of other tactics, like sleep
deprivation and "stress positions," if they were approved by a
senior officer. A senior Pentagon official says Rumsfeld has
taken a personal interest in coming up with a dollar figure to
compensate Iraqis who have been wronged. Abizaid tells TIME that
he thinks the outrage will fade as the U.S. demonstrates its
willingness to take action against the perpetrators. "Our
openness about it," he says, "is a lesson about the rule of law."
As the President told Arab interviewers, "A dictator wouldn't be
answering questions about this."
Nevertheless, the scandal has made it exceedingly difficult for
the U.S. to build support for its faltering project in Iraq by
pointing to good intentions. Bush has always seemed his most
impassioned when he railed against Saddam's "torture chambers"
and "rape rooms." As other rationales for invasion--like Iraq's
alleged store of weapons of mass destruction--evaporated, the
purpose of human liberation had remained. Even last week Bush was
telling an audience in Michigan, "Because we acted, the torture
rooms are closed." The newest inhuman prison scenes struck at the
very heart of his claim that the U.S. was in Iraq to promote
freedom and liberty. "This is our greatest strength," says
Republican Representative Christopher Shays, "and we've blown
it." For many Iraqis, no amount of U.S. generosity or contrition
will ever erase the taste of humiliation conveyed by the
photographs, especially given the symbolic importance of Abu
Ghraib. It was Saddam's torture chamber, and now it's
ours.--Reported by Timothy J. Burger, James Carney, Sally B.
Donnelly, Michael Duffy, Elaine Shannon, Viveca Novak, Douglas
Waller, Michael Weisskopf and Adam Zagorin/Washington; Mark
Thompson/Doha; Brian Bennett, Paul Quinn-Judge, Simon Robinson
and Vivienne Walt/Baghdad; Helen Gibson/London; Simon Crittle/New
York; and Scott MacLeod/Cairo
BOX STORY:
A CHRONICLE OF SHAME
Oct.-Dec. 2003 Iraqi detainees at the Abu Ghraib prison near
Baghdad are abused and photographed by members of the U.S.
military police force assigned to the site
Jan. 13, 2004 Specialist Joseph Darby, a member of the 372nd MP
Company, 800th MP Brigade, reports evidence of the crimes to
military investigators
Jan. 14 U.S. military officials in Baghdad launch a criminal
investigation into the alleged abuses
Jan. 16 Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld learns about the probe
but does not brief President Bush on the case until two weeks
later
Jan. 17 Lieut. General Ricardo Sanchez, senior U.S. commander in
Iraq, formally admonishes Army Reserve Brigadier General Janis
Karpinski, right, commander of the 800th MP Brigade, for "serious
deficiencies in her brigade"
Jan. 19 Sanchez orders a separate investigation into the
"practices and procedures" of U.S. soldiers at Abu Ghraib
Feb. 26 The International Committee of the Red Cross warns in a
report to Sanchez and Coalition Provisional Authority chief L.
Paul Bremer that the abuse of some prisoners in Iraq is
"tantamount to torture"
March 3 Major General Antonio Taguba, the head of the
investigation into conditions at Abu Ghraib, reports that members
of the 800th MP Brigade committed "sadistic, blatant and wanton
criminal abuses" against Iraqi detainees. The abuses are
substantiated by "extremely graphic photographic evidence"
March 20 Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt announces that the U.S.
plans to charge six soldiers with conspiracy, dereliction of
duty, cruelty, maltreatment, assault and indecent acts
April 6 Lieut. General David McKiernan approves Taguba's
recommendation for letters of reprimand for six additional
soldiers. Two of them are relieved of their duties
April 28 Rumsfeld meets with Senators to discuss the war in Iraq
but does not tell them about the existence of photos of the
prison abuses. That night, the images are shown for the first
time on CBS's 60 Minutes II
May 1 Details of the Taguba review are reported for the first
time in the New Yorker |
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Scott
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 1603
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 3:54 am Post subject: |
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What's the "Iraqi Center for Research and Strategic Studies?"
Besides the organization that conducted the poll? Are they Shiite? Sunni? Turkoman? Kurd? |
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Scott
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 1603
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 3:58 am Post subject: |
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| sparky (among other things) wrote: | | Also note that only 7% of Iraqis see the US as liberators. Man, you guys really f***ed things up. |
Related question: How many Germans regarded the Allies as liberators in 1945? Did we f*** things up then, sir? |
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carpro
Admin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 1176
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 4:10 am Post subject: |
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We also have an eyewitness. His name is Grampa and he sounds credible to me. I guess we shouldn't believe him though because he was actually there.
And he's not saying what certain people want to hear. It doesn't suit their agenda.
_________________
"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service." |
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Craig
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 4:33 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Marine4life"] | Craig wrote: |
Wounded that show any sign of life are subject to be blown to scattered pieces of meat that glow in the sight of the killers who show a bit more excitement than just some calm business like demeanor - but rather excitement at the killing they can do from afar.
And any American who has had his house searched because he was under suspicion can tell how a whole lot of @*$! that he owned was maliciously destroyed in the search. - @*$!! I can testify to that just about a thousand or so dollars worth of rough opals that the cops spread about the yard such that I was finding some my mother missed some five years later.
First point, isn't that what Kerry got the bronze star for, killing the wounded.
Second point, did I read somewhere that you did time for a felony, admitted by you? If so then my 13 years in law enforcement tells me that you lost your right to vote. Just an observation but if that is true then it's mind over matter. We don't mind and you don't matter. |
I've been voting regular. So much for that bit of wisdom.
I own to having sold drugs - might have been a little over a year all total that I was actually selling meth,
You can find plenty of testimony of folks who had housed completely trashed and **** broken when police search. On occasion they have been made to pay for it. I even heard of one department who were apologetic for hitting wrong house and replaced the persons TV and front door and what all.
No. I did not do time for a felony admitted by me. I did time for a person who claimed I sold him drugs but I never had done more than give a friendly hit when he might drop by. Near as I gathered he got his drugs from his uncle. By the time he was pestering me to sell him stuff I told him I was not doing that anymore.
The wounded that Kerry killed was said to be still armed. The local swift boaters claims made about the issue is mostly their own fantasies and crap they are "just sure of".
You claim to have 13 years in law enforcement and make the claim you do?
I still feel a bit uncomfortable to call you a liar since you do not state what is your LE experience.
An online buddy who is a cop told me that he had not witnessed such crap as was being much publicized in the LE group when I frequented it. I asked if he was from a small town and he said that was so.
So, you can only be a liar or have never been anywhere.
You are certainly a liar for sake of carrying on about **** that you don't know more than what 'you are just sure of'.
As for shooting helpless wounded read them Geneva conventions. I have not read claim one that Kerry shot a helpless person - other than from ******** who are just sure of it. |
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Craig
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 4:42 am Post subject: |
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| Scott wrote: | | sparky (among other things) wrote: | | Also note that only 7% of Iraqis see the US as liberators. Man, you guys really f***ed things up. |
Related question: How many Germans regarded the Allies as liberators in 1945? Did we f*** things up then, sir? |
WTF does that have to do with current situation?
Germany declared war on US and the situation was total war.
Iraq has been a festering situation for years and a lot of Iraqi's are likely not all that trusting of US for various justifyable reasons - on being that daddy Bush encouraged them to raise up against the evil dictator while the evil Bush left Saddam all the means he needed to do the predictable slaughter that he did since it seeme that he knew full well that Bush would let him and Bush allowed him the means.
FU "sir" - I work for a living. |
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Craig
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 4:43 am Post subject: |
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| carpro wrote: | We also have an eyewitness. His name is Grampa and he sounds credible to me. I guess we shouldn't believe him though because he was actually there.
And he's not saying what certain people want to hear. It doesn't suit their agenda. |
I will give you that.
He sounds credible to you. |
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Marine4life
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 591
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 5:04 am Post subject: |
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Well I will try to respond to that dribble. It doesn't make much sense so here we go. You just said that you did time for someone who claimed you sold him drugs. You don't do time over a misdimeanor drug rap, therefore you are a felon, that is if you are telling the truth. That makes you inelligible to vote. SOOO since you contend that you vote, well lets say I think you are full of cr*p.
I worked in maximum security at 5 state pens for 13 years, two on death row, and I know a lot of convicts. Real convicts that is, and for what it's worth you would be their little girl. I know more about the 4th ammendment of the Constitution than you will ever know. And I aslo know that if they trashed your house, well lets say that usually happens to big mouth punks.
Lets name a few credentials;
Tehachapi state pen, CCI
Donovan correctional inst. RJD
Folsom state pen, FOL
Pelican Bay state pen, PBSP
Nebraska state pen, NSP
While working death row in Nebraska we executed 2, John Joubert, Bob Williams. Go ahead and look them up, now I call you a liar. The only way you could vote if you tell the truth is to have a pardon.
YOU ARE FULL OF CR*P.
Go ahead ask me something that only a convict or Officer would know. I know I will ask you, who was the Godfather of the EME, who is the Leader of the AB's, Who was the leader of the BGF.
_________________
Helicopter Marine Attack Squadron 169 which is now HMLA-169. They added Huey's to compliment the Cobra effectiveness. When I served we just had Snakes. |
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Marine4life
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 591
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 5:32 am Post subject: |
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Your taking to long looking it up;
Joe Morgan-EME
Blinky Griffin-AB's
George Jackson-BGF
Since you claim to be a dope expert what are the standard commonly used parts to a hype kit.
C'mon just be your self and quit trying to blow smoke up everyones a**. I was around this world several times before you were out of diapers. So I guess your right I haven't been anywhere or done anything. I do know one thing, my house wouldn't get trashed by the cop's, guess I am just a good lawabidding citizen. Let me ask you, have you graduated from high school yet. When you turn 18 you have to register for the draft.
_________________
Helicopter Marine Attack Squadron 169 which is now HMLA-169. They added Huey's to compliment the Cobra effectiveness. When I served we just had Snakes. |
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Marine4life
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 591
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 5:55 am Post subject: |
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You prison abuse spinners need to wake up. Do you know what happens in our prisons everyday, 18 year old kid's getting raped, stabbed or even worse sold. All I ask is for you to checkout the movie "American me" then come back and tell me how terrible our troops are. Prison life sucks no matter where you are, but there is a reason that you are there. I believe that they should use any interogation tactic that works to get the information my son needs to get home alive.
_________________
Helicopter Marine Attack Squadron 169 which is now HMLA-169. They added Huey's to compliment the Cobra effectiveness. When I served we just had Snakes. |
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Craig
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| Marine4life wrote: | Well I will try to respond to that dribble. It doesn't make much sense so here we go. You just said that you did time for someone who claimed you sold him drugs. You don't do time over a misdimeanor drug rap, therefore you are a felon, that is if you are telling the truth. That makes you inelligible to vote. SOOO since you contend that you vote, well lets say I think you are full of cr*p.
I worked in maximum security at 5 state pens for 13 years, two on death row, and I know a lot of convicts. Real convicts that is, and for what it's worth you would be their little girl. I know more about the 4th ammendment of the Constitution than you will ever know. And I aslo know that if they trashed your house, well lets say that usually happens to big mouth punks.
Lets name a few credentials;
Tehachapi state pen, CCI
Donovan correctional inst. RJD
Folsom state pen, FOL
Pelican Bay state pen, PBSP
Nebraska state pen, NSP
While working death row in Nebraska we executed 2, John Joubert, Bob Williams. Go ahead and look them up, now I call you a liar. The only way you could vote if you tell the truth is to have a pardon.
YOU ARE FULL OF CR*P.
Go ahead ask me something that only a convict or Officer would know. I know I will ask you, who was the Godfather of the EME, who is the Leader of the AB's, Who was the leader of the BGF. |
Way cool! Folsom. I did a year behind the wall and a year at the camp.
Now my only problem is not so much that you are a liar but just what it is you lie about.
You do not know squat about California so you are incredibly stupid or are lying about working in the California prison system.
I am sure that one could find out soon enough but I am curious just how long it might take for you to tell me what is right next door to the inmate craft store.
What are you quizzing me about? Do you wish to prove that I am not a convict?
How many prisoner folks do you suppose get to walk out the gate from Folsom every day relatively unsupervised?
How many gates must the above person pass through?
(not groundskeepers)
Is Camp Repressa North or West of the gate?
Can one see Folsom Dam from the upper yard? Can one see Folsom dam from the lower yard?
What is the separate unit from Camp Repressa?
What security level is Folsom?
Where is the museum in relation to the gate?
Where is the Hotel California?
What is it for? |
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Craig
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 6:13 am Post subject: |
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| Marine4life wrote: | Your taking to long looking it up;
Joe Morgan-EME
Blinky Griffin-AB's
George Jackson-BGF
Since you claim to be a dope expert what are the standard commonly used parts to a hype kit.
C'mon just be your self and quit trying to blow smoke up everyones a**. I was around this world several times before you were out of diapers. So I guess your right I haven't been anywhere or done anything. I do know one thing, my house wouldn't get trashed by the cop's, guess I am just a good lawabidding citizen. Let me ask you, have you graduated from high school yet. When you turn 18 you have to register for the draft. |
Oh boy! A quiz.
I dunow who any of them people are. Couple name look vaguely familiar. Especially there being a lot of Jacksons. Some of my best buddies been named Jackson. 
Hype kit? - I didn't evdn let them needle freaks bring their crap on my property or in my car or ...whatever.
I made exception once and repented.
As for your insults - I think that your laxative is failing you. Better ask the vet for a stronger dose. And it might be time for your worm pills. 
School - some college - no diploma.
Bet I got more units than a lot of folks who got the diploma though. - That was happy daze. 
Where did I claim to be a dope expert? - Or are you just lying again?
Of course you are. 
Ar you one of them wannabe smart people who claim that the IQ test is innacurate?  |
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Craig
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 6:21 am Post subject: |
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| Marine4life wrote: | | You prison abuse spinners need to wake up. Do you know what happens in our prisons everyday, 18 year old kid's getting raped, stabbed or even worse sold. All I ask is for you to checkout the movie "American me" then come back and tell me how terrible our troops are. Prison life sucks no matter where you are, but there is a reason that you are there. I believe that they should use any interogation tactic that works to get the information my son needs to get home alive. |
Since you are lying about your knowledge about California law I can only conclude that you might not be telling the truth about having a son who is anywhere. |
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Speedy
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| Marine4life wrote: | | Do you know what happens in our prisons everyday, 18 year old kid's getting raped....Prison life sucks no matter where you are, but there is a reason that you are there. I believe that they should use any interogation tactic that works to get the information my son needs to get home alive. |
I agree w/ interigation of prisoners by qualified individuals (not gaurds)...but any soldier that rapes a woman prisoner should be executed.
Do you not agree?
Can we expect your relentless and vocal support of the prosecution of those involved in the rapings? |
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Craig
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2004 6:36 am Post subject: |
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| Marine4life wrote: | Your taking to long looking it up;
Joe Morgan-EME
Blinky Griffin-AB's
George Jackson-BGF
Since you claim to be a dope expert what are the standard commonly used parts to a hype kit.
C'mon just be your self and quit trying to blow smoke up everyones a**. I was around this world several times before you were out of diapers. So I guess your right I haven't been anywhere or done anything. I do know one thing, my house wouldn't get trashed by the cop's, guess I am just a good lawabidding citizen. Let me ask you, have you graduated from high school yet. When you turn 18 you have to register for the draft. |
Oh - forgot to mention that I never registered fro the draft. - Or maybe I did? I had something that was like a draft card after I got out. It said that I was supposed to carry it but I threw it away. I think something on it said that I was subject to recall
But I was still pretty bitter then ove what I thought that myself and my country had a contract and my contry violated the terms of that contract.
You see - the contract guaranteed that I would remain on Jump status for a given period of time - two or two and a half years - long time and I forget exact. But it was for a period ov time that would last an enlistee to just short of the end of his term - effectively until the end.
The out for the military was that if my mos was needed elsewhere.
They did not change my mos before sending me elsewhere and change it to a mos that I still do not know squat what a Pershing Missile Crewman might do.
So I figured that to have nullified any and all contract between me and my country.
I decided that I am a world citizen and if such as you do not like that then you can see to getting me removed from US. |
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